What would Ireland look like if we didn't join the EU?

Brucie Bonus

India.

Super religious and full of call centers and corrupt politicians on the take.

Swathes of poor and slums. Politicians living like lords.

Try as they might, the EU saves us from a complete FF/FG Wipeout.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017315#Comment_118017315

i beg to differ, its clearly obvious the eu has been deliberately designed to undermine democracy, and the systems and processes we have created to implement and maintain democratic rule and control, i.e. our political institutions, governments etc, but i may stand corrected

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017673#Comment_118017673

That's not what "libertarian" means.

(It's also not what the EU was designed to do. Which discussion are you wanting to have?)

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017725#Comment_118017725

so what does it mean?

why should we dictate the conversation, all members should be included in the discussion

you can clearly see how undemocratic the eu is and how its been designed so, we ve clearly seen this in action over the years, particularly since the euro has been introduced

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017768#Comment_118017768

Libertarianism is a political philosophy which assigns maximal value to individual liberty, usually prioritising physical personal freedom and property rights over other forms of liberty, and holds that the role, powers, authority and scope of activity of states/governments should be miminised. Libertarians strongly disapprove of the EU, which they regard as oppressive and statist.

As for the claim that the EU was "deliberately designed to undermine democracy", this is b@lls on a stick. The EU was designed to minimise the prospects of further wars in Europe by ensuring that so far as possible the peoples of different European countries had common, rather than diverging or opposing, interests. While it may be true that the Union has a democratic deficit, this was not a deliberate design; it's a by-product of the fact that, while member states agreed to exercise collective authority over social and economic matters through the institutions of the Union, they were (and still are) reluctant to agree to those institutions having a direct democratic link with the people, lest this undermine the relevance and status of national institutions.

You can criticise this and seek to do something about it, but if you want to do anything effective about it it will be necessary to understand what led to it in the first place. It may give you the warm fuzzy feelings to fulminate that i'ts a deliberate design engineered by a libertarian conspiracy, but this is completely wrong on every point and, as long as you think it's right, this will significantly hamper your ability to understand the problem or do anything about it.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017903#Comment_118017903

yes, the eu was in fact originally designed for all of those things, particularly to reduce european conflicts, but it has morphed into a libertarian mess, as explained, the primary function of its centers of power, primarily the ecb and the commission, are to do whatever it takes to undermine democracy and the institutions connected with trying to do so. you can clearly see, all euro group member states central banks have now been rendered impudent under this construction, this means we now have a union without a truly functioning surplus recycling mechanism in place, similar to other states such as america and australia etc. under such a construction, this ultimately produces fire sector dictated and designed economies, which in turn, turns major markets, particularly related to property and land, into major messes, i.e. exactly what ireland has right now. this is now all clearly obvious to see occurring in plain sight, we urgently need to redemocratise the eu, or possible face its demise, and if that happens, we re probably all screwed

Thread is becoming slightly more advanced than the lay persons understanding of political science.

Several posts are worded to make them understandable non-the-less, but this "conspiracy to decimate democracy" is kind of lost on me.

Me?

I like core concepts.

Where did different cultures and subsequent land borders denominating countries come from in the first place?

To the best of my understanding, they came from homosapien clusters with different values warring with each other and eventually agreeing to somehow settle (peacefully or otherwise) on who owned what.

i.e. essentially it was interpersonal disputes based on personal values - personal values lending themselves to "personalities", collectively extrapolated to form "societies" comprised of said collective values - cumulatively festering to form a "culture"..... of sorts.

With advancements of technology, opportunity and associated evolution of human cognition, we're gradually re-integrating with one another via a resultant improved cognitive disposition (more civilized, emotionally refined, competent, proficient).

i.e. different cultures melding, bonding, forming ties via improved awareness and subsequent tolerance.

The values of some cultures seem to have lent themselves well to that countries growth, economically, infrastructurally etc.

Others less so.

But cumulative cultural integration gives the opportunity for greater individual personal growth, improved individual quality of life;

To me that's the value of the EU. It's the future, the ONLY way forward.

....

And given that Irish culture has historically embraced muck-savagery, I think it's fair to say we've experienced significant cultural growth since becoming part of it (not to mention the economic revolution).

John Doe1

I would imagine we would have a similar level of economy as Serbia/Bulgaria if we had not joined the EU. Our economy would have been much more linked to the UK aswell so Brexit would really have screwed us.

The EU has its flaws but the consensus among Economists is that Ireland would never been as prosperous without membership.

Also, how can anyone watch the ongoing shitshow happening in the UK and think leaving the EU is going to bring about some Utopia?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018866#Comment_118018866

I honestly think the UK exit was much more relative to historical british culture showing poor tolerance for the resultant cultural diversity of their country.

i.e. it was far more personal than political.

Remember, royalty historically came from incest (i.e. not only not extending values outside of their own culture, but refusing to do so even outside of their own family).

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013490#Comment_118013490

I never quite understood this view. Getting rid of British rule was not solely about self-determination for the mere sake of self-determination, but also the fact that British rule had overseen the misgovernment and subjugation of Ireland — much of which was based on an imperialist view of the Irish being inferior and Ireland itself simply being a resource to exploit. Had Ireland, its people, its culture, its religious views and its prosperity been better treated, better respected, and better politically represented within the Union with Great Britain, then it’s hard to say whether the drive towards complete separation would have been as profound as it eventually became. In any event, The dynamics of the application of EU law in Ireland do not operate anything remotely like the way British will was imposed on Ireland. Our membership of the EU and our experiences under British rule are not analogous, and it would be ludicrous to insist otherwise.

This argument of “ah we fought for our freedom and now we are in the EU dominated by Germany, so what was the point?” — well — the problem is that unless we find a way to move the entire island somewhere else, we are still part of Europe and Europe will continue to be dominated by the larger and more powerful European countries. Whether or not the EU existed would not change this reality, and our economic policy as a small, relatively isolated island nation would still have to play to the tune set by larger nations. Membership of the EU, at the very least, gives us some input and provides a platform where dealing with affairs at a continental level requires some degree of balancing interests between member states, large and small. The alternative would be that no such platform exists at all — but the muscle states of Europe would still remain the muscle states, and Germany et al would still be the dominant force.

Had Ireland never joined the EU, our geographic and political isolation from Europe would have left us far more of an economic satellite of the UK. Membership of the EU has allowed us to diversify the model a bit, bring some physical substance to it by the fact that businesses (domestic and foreign) can establish premises here to be within the single market etc, close the gap created by the sea as regards our access to the continental market — not to mention the infrastructural benefits we have seen from EU-funded projects. It’s impossible to say with certainty, but I think without EU membership we would have struggled to move far beyond a brass-plate company economy while much of the old industry and agriculture sector would have struggled anyway to compete with the rise of new markets which emerged towards the end of the 20th century. Basically, our weaknesses would have been more harshly exposed.

Ash.J.Williams

traffic jams in Enflield, kildare, mountrath, borris , monegal, redcow, newlands cross, bray , every day lasting hours :)

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018888#Comment_118018888

I have no idea where you got the idea that we were poor in the 1990's but then joined the Eu and got good roads!

Nor do i fully understand your ideas on how society and culture developed. But just on your last post

There is a long history of different peoples migrating to England and those peoples have been generally incorporated (the Normans for instance) at least as well as other countries and better than many.

While many royal houses allowed marriage of close relatives in order to protect the royal line, at least as early as Ptolemaic Egypt , that practice did not give rise to royalty but was simply an aspect of it.

If we never joined the EEC then our first problem would have been our being cut off from our British Market. Our exports, mostly agricultural would gradually be replaced by other EEC countries.

It is hard to see how the GFA might have come about if we were outside the EU and UK was a member and a close ally of France/Germany. We should never lose sight of the soft power we wielded by being at the top table as an equal to the UK and how those personal connections we might have forged with our European colleagues assisted us in reacing a peaceful solution.

No American company would have given any consideration to Ireland when looking for a location for their European HQ.

We could have ignored or resisted any move towards addressing equal pay, racial, sexual , disability and other discriminations, although it is hard to imagine, given the internet, that we could ignore progress in these areas completely,

We would still insist on large manufacturers setting up in Ireland to address our market , with the result that we would have a more restricted buying choice. We might still be driving around in Morris cars made in Portobello.

It is quite possible, if we had joined the EEC when we did, that we would be quite similar to Albania, without the benefit of a Mediterranean climate.

If we were to leave now, then we only have to look over the water at how Brexit is doing. And remember , the UK was a large country with a large market and a positive contribution to the EU budget. Our departure would be much less dramatic. Given our disagreements with other members around our tax laws, it is hard to imagine our being able to retain access to the Single Market for our Us multinationals so they would all move. We would still have t he ability to produce agricultural goods but our markets in Europe would disappear.

PeaSea

It would still take the best part of 8 hrs to drive from Armagh to Rosslare like it did in the 80s.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019367#Comment_118019367

Society and cultures developing;

Did you know?

Warring faction would occasionally pit their best warriors against each other, with the victor deciding the outcome of the dispute.

One side would decorate themselves with blue, whilst the other with red.

Using this as a means of dispute resolution was ultimately abandoned, but this practice eventually evolved into a no time limits form of bare knuckle boxing, whilst ultimately through British intervention, adopted the "Marques of Queensbury" rule set.

It is now practiced using gloves, judges and time limits.

But the original tradition of opposite factions adhering to either "red" or "blue" colors to denominate their affiliation, persists from this original form of cultural and society development.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012540#Comment_118012540

The notion that EU inward investment into Ireland made no difference at all and that we would have got that regardless is simple laughable.

Freight bandit

Should have remained as the EEC and a lot of problems could have been avoided, despite lauding itself as some gold standard in democracy , its a blatantly antidemocratic organisation.it opposes the will of the people.it also needs to stop with this federalisation by stealth, the people of Europe expect and deserve better than this.

Podge_irl

Where on earth has it lauded itself as the gold standard in democracy.

The EU is a supranational body. A lot of the moves towards federalism have frankly come from people not understanding that and demanding more direct democracy.

The depth of the free market is unprecedented and requires a massive degree of standardisation. This in turn requires a body that controls this. Something akin to the ECJ would always be required for this reason. There is, obviously, a question of degree but considering most opponents would like the degree to seemingly be zero, the common market could not exist.

riddles

It’s just a shame we didn’t tap in more to EU learnings and best practise on things like planning , transport and health.

We didn’t use the Celtic tiger to build a sustainable economy. We are now broke and have a crisis in health, housing and an unclear funding model for our social welfare model.

We have a reactive political system , which is spending money with a ‘when it’s gone it’s gone’ mindset. A shifting policy change from the new German government could change things up here pretty quickly if they push for more anti inflationary measures.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013294#Comment_118013294

Hmmmmm

Yeah no

Its not impossible to know if the EU has been good for Ireland at all. The benefits of billions of investment into this country alone have been hugely beneficial. Our membership alongside the UK was a huge benefit in bringing about the Peace Process.

The EU did not insist on decriminalising gay male sex. The European Court of Human Rights which is entirely separate from the EU found against Ireland on criminalisation of gay male sex. It wasnt the EU and government wasnt really forced to do anything actually.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018907#Comment_118018907

Absolutely. Where do people think all our Motorways were paid from. It certainly wasnt just the Irish taxpayer.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030107#Comment_118030107

Direct EU funding was signficant in the 80s and 90s, but became less and less important starting about 25 years ago. For the past ten years or so Ireland has been a net contributor to the EU, but for the 10 years before that, while we were a net recipient, it wasn't by very much.

By far the bigger advantage of EU members is participation in the Single Market, the opportunities this gives to Irish businesses, and the attractions it adds to Ireland as a source for inward investment.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034513#Comment_118034513

Of course but theres a big denial in this thread about how direct funding benefited Irelands infrastucture so much. As if all a) either the public infrastructure doesnt really exist or b) it would have just magically appeared if we were non EU members.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027103#Comment_118027103

And sure isnt it great to know that a new German government will have more say on our future prospects than the government that we elect?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034863#Comment_118034863

And yet they don't have a fraction of the influence over us that the British government did in the days before we joined the EU. It's absolutely unarguable that EU membership has hugely increased our capacity to influence our own destiny.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034925#Comment_118034925

In the words of Facebuke "This claim is false"

Before we joined the EEC, The British had no control over our borders, our currency, our fiscal policies or our laws. The EU does.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034941#Comment_118034941

Are you serious?

The British literally defined the border in this country.

Out currency was linked to sterling and was devalued along with sterling at the decision of the British. there is no evidence our views were taken into account. That dictated our fiscal policy.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034941#Comment_118034941

WE had a currency that was linked 1:1 with sterling, and our exchange rate, monetary and interest rate policies were wholly decided in London by the Bank of England and the UK Treasury, with no input from us. We had a common travel area with the UK which required our migration and border control policies to be substantially aligned with theirs which, again, were decided without input from us. You didn't know any of this?

As for us having control over our borders, we spent decades trying to get some traction with the UK over our issues with the land border, which was also our primary foreign policy concern, with no results at all. Contrast the way in which the UK has been compelled, kicking and screaming, to pay attention to our concerns about the border in the Brexit process, now that we are members of the EU and they are not.

It requires Brexiter-type levels of delusion to believe that Ireland had more effective sovereignty prior to 1972 that it does today as an EU member.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035017#Comment_118035017

Im sorry matey, but the linkage of the punt was broken in the 70s and lasted up until the 2000s and we still share a CTA with the UK even in the paradise of the EU. You did know this but had to pretend that you didnt in order to try to make a point. Says quite a bit about the ground you're under.

As for the current debacle on the protocol, who's currently negotiating with the British? the EU, while the Irish government waits outside the door. I wouldnt be too quick to crow about the EU sticking it to the Brits. Right now it suits the EU (aka France, in this instance) to stick it to the Brits, if their priorities change that will change quick enough and they will settle on our behalf, like when the Commission triggered article 16 in a tantrum over Astra Zeneca. And, yes, that happened, don't start that memory hole shite again 😂

So lets go back to my points

Do we control our currency? No

Do we control our Borders? No

Do we control our fiscal policy? No

Sounds a lot like the Free State.

And the great example of how we benefitted from EU membership that is presented in this thread? It's the same one that people used to justify voting for FF for decades: "Shure dey fixshed de roads". 🤣

Yurt2

Wild Mountain Thyme is a movie about this alternative historical timeline. Dystopian and terrifying...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kadUgcIxODM

rock22

Dyr wrote

" who's currently negotiating with the British? the EU, while the Irish government waits outside the door. "

Are we in the Eu or not. Because if we are members then we are part of that negotiation as part of the EU.

It suits the narrative of these anti EU posters to have Ireland in the EU and then out of the EU to suit the particular circumstance. The negotiations are being undertaken by the Commission following the instructions given by the European council . Events over the past five years show that Ireland has had plenty of influence in setting that negotiating position. Imagine what influence we might have had if we were not a member?

Dyr also wrote

"And the great example of how we benefitted from EU membership that is presented in this thread? It's the same one that people used to justify voting for FF for decades: "Shure dey fixshed de roads"

No one who lived through the fifties and sixties here in 'Independent Ireland' could write such nonsense . Answer honesty , Dyr, Did you live through those decades?