"Green" policies are destroying this country

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006135#Comment_122006135

Maybe because the grant is higher than the market value of the car? Q is why does the grant require the car to be scrapped? Amending it to exempt older EVs from the scrappage requirement might be a useful way to keep older EVs on the road allowing someone to benefit from a cheap used EV. A win win in my book

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006202#Comment_122006202

The car needs to be 3 years old and have over 300,000km on it to be valid. So first off they are going to have to do a hell of a lot of driving in the car for it to be valid.

If the car is running perfectly, why swap? to buy a new car is still going to cost the buyer thousands.

Who is buying this car with over 300,000km on it?

You have gone down a rabbit hole and trying to dig your way out of it. Not sure how you will succeed to be honest. None of it makes any sense.

First off I would love to find out how many taxi drivers in Ireland manage to put over 300,000km on a car in 5-10 years, let alone 3 years

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006074#Comment_122006074

"having enough money to buy a new car comes up a lot but has nothing to do
with EVs so I don't know why people keep bringing up that point. "

If you don't understand how Ireland needing to replace almost 1mn odd ICE vehicles with EVs to meet the 2030 target, 95% of which will have to be purchased new in the years between now and then given there are so few in the country already, is relevant, then I really don't think you should be posting about the issue.

Surely the problem there is very very obvious - large numbers of Irish people would need to be buying expensive, brand new, EVs for this goal to have any hope of being met. And as the figures in the SBP article posted two pages ago show, to meet the goal it would now require literally every single car sold in Ireland between now and 2030 to be an EV to meet it. Which isn't happening.

You may "get on perfectly fine" but clearly most Irish people wouldn't, as evidenced by the real world sales figures. EVs are much cheaper to run than ICE vehicles these days, but yet the vast majority of Irish people aren't buying or driving them. Why do you think that is?

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006079#Comment_122006079

Have you numbers to back that up? My experience was no drop in second hand diesel prices of relevance? My car wasn't one caught cheating so maybe that's something to do with it. And second hand prices rose dramatically since then, nearly surpassing new prices for the same car at one stage. My diesel car is valued the same now as it was in 2019 despite being 5 years older and 5 years more kms on it.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006239#Comment_122006239

I'm happy that no EVs will be scrapped under this policy initiative. I've a crappy Leaf with a badly degraded battery and 184k kms on it. I would expect modern EVs to easily exceed 300k kms with plenty left in the battery. Just dont understand why a green based initiative would force someone to scrap a car rather than make it available on the used market?

Im not sure who is in the rabbit hole at this stage tbh

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006272#Comment_122006272

Price rose with covid on all cars due to supply and demand. I was lucky to buy at the right time so the depreciation on my car over 3 years was minimal compared to what it should have been but I didn't buy new

Diesel cars in the UK dropped massively, they stayed high here and hence why the UK started to dump them over here as they could sell at a higher price into Ireland than into the UK

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006275#Comment_122006275

You have gone in circles because you thought a 2 year old car could be scrapped and you had no idea about the 300,000km. Let's leave it at that.

The initiative is to remove older cars and replace with electric cars for taxi's. If a taxi driver manages to drive 300k km's on his car and wants to spend thousands to scrap it, then you could claim that is a loop hole

FYI when a car goes to scrap they are taken apart and the parts are used to replace broken parts in other cars.

n.d.os

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006243#Comment_122006243

You seem to be placing too much emphasis on the term ‘target’. It’s important to remember that everyone has goals, and these were established quite some time ago. The focus shouldn’t be solely on achieving these targets. If an individual chooses not to purchase a new electric vehicle, it’s a matter of personal preference. Many people resist the idea of government intervention to such an extent that they refuse to buy an EV, and there’s little the government can do to change the minds of those who prefer older, outdated technology over newer, more efficient alternatives that could potentially save them money in the long run.

Your argument about the lack of Electric Vehicle purchases doesn’t hold water. EVs are a relatively recent innovation, and their adoption rate in this country has been satisfactory. How can one not adapt well to an EV? Could you clarify that? Based on my observations, the only individuals who struggle with EVs are those who don’t own one. Occasionally, you hear about someone who purchased an EV but couldn’t adjust to it, but I do believe a lot of these people are either made up or internet trolls. However, as demonstrated, EVs are more convenient for homeowners than ICE cars, and those residing in apartment buildings or cities have the option to use public charging stations. Currently, there is one public charger for every three EVs in Ireland. Those who aren’t purchasing them are either uninformed about them and will be late adopters, or they are similar to those who didn’t own mobile phones for a decade after their introduction. Then there’s the bloke who is set in his ways and perceives any EV owner as a trendy environmental activist. It’s just a vehicle. It offers numerous advantages over an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) vehicle, and importantly, it doesn’t emit any tailpipe emissions. This is the crux of the matter. Cease purchasing new ICE vehicles and contributing to tailpipe emissions in our cities and rural areas. Invest in an EV. It’s merely a vehicle. It won’t transform you into a Green Party supporter. Eventually, you’re bound to own one anyway.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006329#Comment_122006329

Looks like you're happy with your gotcha victory. Happy for you. I already explained the 2 v 3 years. I didnt mention 300k km and so apparently am guilty by admission.

You didnt answer my question or comment on the benefit of amending the policy to exempt EVs from scrappage. IMO proves point I made earlier, there is a tendancy by some to adopt a see no evil, hear no evil when it come to defending Govt Policy.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006486#Comment_122006486

If you want it amended then contact the NTA and ask them

I was in front and said I didn’t know the policy, will I contact the NTA to ask them to change it? No because I don’t see a market for a 300k ex taxi so even if going to scrap it will be used for parts

That’s nothing to do with policies, just common sense

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006486#Comment_122006486

in terms of the little comment about “gotcha victory”

Maybe you can explain why you needed to add that comment?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006162#Comment_122006162

Will you ever give me a break with the pontificating. Nothing I have asked you has anything to do with politics. It has been all to do with green policy, and the high possibility of the economic ruin of our economy by following a 37GW offshore wind plan + hydrogen that greens cannot even put a price on, let alone that it would not even provide the projected electricity requirement for 2050. If you cannot put a price to a proposal then it`s not a plan, it`s a wish list.

What has the "necessity of Green policy" achieved or hope to achieve by culling cattle here ? World demand for meat is projected to grow, (not drop as Greens would like us to believe), and Brazil alone is increasing their herd numbers to fill that demand. At best it leaves the Greens looking clueless. At worst a group that wishes to kill agriculture for no discernible reason other than they want to turn the country into a wilderness occupied by wolves, lynxs and whatever other lunacy they can dream of.

You do not have to be an agriculturist to see what would happen for food security or to the global food chain if greens got their way on pesticides, herbicides and chemical fertilisers. Sri Lanka will show you how that worked out.

For people who talk so much about following the experts when it comes to doing the same on their own proposals, ideology wins every time. On just one herbicide, glyphosate, they were told by the E.U.`s own experts that their noise on it being carcinogenic to humans was a nonsense and to ban it would result in a drop in yield that would result in an annual decrease of 24 million tons of wheat for export. The vast majority to countries in the developing world, while at the same time the E.U. was telling us that a failure to export 12 million tons from Ukraine due to Putin`s war would result in famine and starvation in the very same countries.Do any of that sound like an ideology on agriculture that anyone should have faith in to follow blindly which you appera to belive should be the case ?

The bookkkeping on CO2 emissions from energy generation and green electricity guarantees is another area where when the figures do not fit the narrative, just change the classification and ignore the realities. Even green advocacy groups, (and our own NGO an Taisce that is doing quite nicely out of this greening agenda), have called the emissions bookkeeping a farce. Yet somehow you are of the belief contrary to all of the above that we should blindly accept all this witout question from a collective that consistently show they have not got the vaguest clue.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006272#Comment_122006272

The price of second or even third hand fourwheel drive diesel jeeps capable of actually being able to operate off road has gone through the roof in the last few years as well.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006559#Comment_122006559

And yet you go on about green nonsensical claptrap about people buying a car to be used from cradle to grave. Something which you yourself freely admit you dont do and presumably, although your online persona wont admit it, it would be a cold day in hell before youd subscribe to it. However, keep banging on about it as if anyone would take a blind bit of notice.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006574#Comment_122006574

Because I felt it was an appropriate response to the post I read.

Ten of Swords

@prunudo and @Blut2 both threadbanned

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122007506#Comment_122007506

As I posted multiple times, some people do and some don't

Not sure why you think people who buy a car and drive it till it dies should be looked down on, which is what I am getting from the posts.

Each to their own and as I said it is the best financially for people, also for the environment

Yes I don't do it myself, still doesn't mean I don't understand it is better for environment and people do it. I might do it, my current EV is going strong and I have it from new.

In terms of taking a "blind bit of notice" 😂

_Kaiser_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995767#Comment_121995767

This post pretty much sums up the entire "Green" politics issue in Ireland.

We're a tiny insignificant island on the edge of the Atlantic with a national population less than most major cities, yet to listen to the Green acolytes, you'd think that we here hold the key to saving the planet and its fate rests on the commuting and recycling decisions we make!

Please!

I know we like to think that we're a highly respected and influential nation and people in general, but most of the world probably couldn't find us on a map and our influence in the likes of the EU extends as far as being the sycophantic panderers of the group. Willing to sell out our own interests for an "attaboy" or jobs for the boys (and girls!)

In the real world our impact is insignificant when compared to the impact of foreign wars in Ukraine, Gaza, and elsewhere, coal plants in China, and the environmental/energy/political/military decisions made by countries in the "developing world". We will have zero impact on those issues and it's a fantasy that recognising Gaza or condemning Russia will have ANY effect or influence on how those conflicts are ultimately resolved.

The notion that we hold the key to saving it all is simultaneously both delusional and breathtakingly arrogant. It's astonishing really. That 5 million people on an island can change the geopolitical stance of the planet and indeed counter nature itself!

But, environmentalism is a crusade and a religion and like every religion it needs a promise of salvation if the path is followed, and a threat of damnation and apocalypse for those who don't. There's very little difference between the two. The Catholic Church for example is one of the wealthiest organisations on the planet, and even in Ireland it's worth several billion euro and for generations has extracted donations from the people to fund its "mission". It too has prophets and ministers who spread the word and seek new adherents to their beliefs, and equally too shies away from uncomfortable or awkward realities that threaten the ideology.

Environmentalism is just our generation's new Church for those who need something "greater than themselves" to follow and indeed be shielded by, and it's also a great earner and source of power for those who know how to play the audience - but just as with those other churches, they ultimately fall in the face of reality and in this case realpolitik, because make no mistake, as soon as the economic or social climate changes, so too will political and general support fall away as rapidly as melting ice in the sun. It happened here when the financial crisis hit, and you can be sure it'll happen again!

Prostrating ourselves in Ireland on the altar of environmental ideology will do nothing to "save the planet" - but it will enrich some, frustrate and inconvenience more while simultaneously making them poorer in the process and telling them it's for their own good, and for what? A utopian fantasy that's no more real than Narnia or Pandora.

Time for some to come back to reality. Recycle your waste in your green bin, try to cut down on your consumerism if you're concerned about your effect on landfill, and reduce your travelling if you're worried about your carbon footprint - but probably best to realise that beyond that it's really little more than a placebo.

Simply put, we're just not that important!

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008175#Comment_122008175

Good post. It’s a scenario that most levelled thinkers use and the recent increases in temperatures and tides has to be related to the emergence of China as an economic superpower. So what difference can little Ireland make?

Personally, I started a campaign a couple of years ago to encourage us all to keep chickens. By keeping chickens in the middle of Dublin, I’ve reduced our family of six’s brown bin waste by 50%.

All that green space lying idle about the place, stick some wire round it, electrify it to keep the predators out, put chickens in there. Nature’s compost heap. Now multiply that by millions round the developed world. One little step……

Akrasia

Nobody said Ireland holds the key to solving climate change on our own. Just that we have obligations to act alongside every other country

Look up 'the tragedy of the commons' for what happens when 'free riders' are tolerated.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008526#Comment_122008526

Interesting, we tried keeping chickens a few years back but the foxes had their way with them. Couldn't keep the buggers out for love nor money.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006908#Comment_122006908

Strange because I see them almost everywhere lately, Ford Raptor being the most common down my way (Limerick) I'd say these 4WD off road vehicles take up maybe 10% of the cars I see on the road. The cost of refilling them has gone up lately as well which you'd think would make them less desirable

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009051#Comment_122009051

Those large Ford seemed to have an increase, I can't remember seeing many of them over the years and suddenly seem to be more prominent.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009211#Comment_122009211

They sprouted up at the peak of the Celtic tiger to quickly disappear when that all went pop. Saw a Mercedes pick up recently. 🤯

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009051#Comment_122009051

They are Ireland's equivalent to the light truck in the US. In Ireland's case though only businesses and self-employed can take full advantage of the commercial tax loophole. A couple of self-employed tradespeople I know have bought new Ford Raptor Rangers lately 3L V6 petrol no less. The only off roading they will ever do is parking on the grass of local GAA clubs. Had a spirited spin in one recently and can however confirm they drive and sound as well as they look...vroom vroom.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009841#Comment_122009841

The loophole you mention, was that not closed in 2018?

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008559#Comment_122008559

The relevant part of that statement is "to act alongside every other country".

As it is all we are doing is p!ss!ng into the wind while shooting ourselves in both feet.

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008965#Comment_122008965

Same here and free roaming wolves and lynx would not make it any easier.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122006312#Comment_122006312

No numbers then? Just like myself, anecdotal evidence of the price rises.

My car is valued the same now as 5 years ago, before Covid and the supply/demand problems have largely gone away.

I never changed the car cos the cost to change was too much for me at the moment and the wife has to get rid of her CH-R first

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009211#Comment_122009211

Yes definitely a massive increase

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009841#Comment_122009841

Still they'd cost a fortune to fill and no VAT back on petrol must be a killer. I'm not a fan of these cars myself but people who like/need them have no real EV alternative in this country either which is another problem