Extra Bank Holiday and other compensation for Covid

Economics101

There is increasing pressure for people to be "compensated" for their work during the pandemic. A sum of over €350m has been mentioned for the health service alone. And other public sector workers are getting on the bandwagon. A few points:

Some will have got significant extra overtime earnings where the pandemic has required extra work

Some who were at work incurred very little exceptional risk (bus drivers driving largely empty buses and in a separate driving compartment)

Basically living standards are determined by what we produce as a society. If the pandemic lessened out production it must in some way lessen our consumption: we cant just all compensate one another out of an economic shock. Is al this yet another manifestation of the cult of the magic money tree in Irish politics?

It was told to cocoon in early 2020. I found this rather patronising and infantilising. Should I get compensation? NO!

Dempo1

Hard to fathom were this is going but my god the costs being mentioned are eye watering. The €350 million mentioned in OP doesn't include cost of agency staff , estimates for HSE alone between €500 million, up to a €1 billion.

I don't disagree with the concept of reward but some of the suggestions seem unworkable and I have to wonder why 10 days as opposed to say 5 days being sought by health service Unions .

The latest Bank Holiday idea seems odd, is this an extra reward for everyone ?

Logistically, implementing a reward across different sectors seems extremely complex, who gets it, who doesn't. I just sense a can of worms has been opened and seriously have to ask, can the country realistically affordable this. Just a humble opinion mind you.

JimmyVik

Just have a bank holiday. Maybe Christmas eve (Friday). Everyone gets it, all done.

L1011

As I expect there'll be some suggestion that no private sector employees will get anything (other than a potential BH) - I've a private sector employer and we got a small but worth receiving bonus this month as recognition of effort/disruption. It'd be worth a few days leave if you were taking them as unpaid anyway.

Nobody needs a bonus or compensation for doing their jobs. They could have quit if they wanted to.

We have a staggering amount of money to pay back. We need to start doing that instead of throwing around handouts and coming back in 5 years saying "We all partied"

Economics101

In the limit if everyone were to get compensated, then everyone would have to pay more tax or higher consumer prices to pay for it. A whole society or economy cannot compensate itself for something like a pandemic.

MilkyToast

Heard a nurse on the radio the other day who disagreed with any additional compensation because of the ill effects on the economy already and said he was glad he'd been in a position to substantively help throughout the pandemic.

Where can we get more of those?

seamus

The best compensation for frontline staff's efforts during covid would be a ramp up in investment on a permanent basis so that the worst of the bullsh1t they had to deal with, never has to be dealt with again. And compensate them properly for the job that they do now.

Throwing them a few bones for a hard year does nothing to make them want to stay in the job.

bucketybuck

So we give compensation to those who were allowed to work during the pandemic?

Including those who did that work from the comfort of their own homes?

But not everybody who was allowed to work, just those in the public service? Those in the private sector get tax hikes instead?

Sounds about right for this government.

Dempo1

I reiterate I agree some reward or recognition required but this has to be put into perspective.

At the Height of the Pandemic and indeed for longer. Public hospitals were essentially closed to the public. Dedicated wards and of course ICU's were staffed by incredibly brave people. Whilst I'm no expert and understand any medical staff dealing with potential Covid infections had to endure a lot of additional stress and workload. I just feel a little perspective required in this entire debate. Not all front line staff endured additional hardship and stress and I repeat Hospitals were practically closed to the general public for months.

I had the misfortune of breaking a leg in the middle of the pandemic, literally arrived by ambulance to a completely empty Hospital (A major one in the Midlands), patched up, shipped out and had to make my way, 2 days later to a private hospital in Dublin for operation, (I live in very rural laois), again practically empty hospital. The care I received excellent I'm Dublin I have to say. The follow up at the Midlands hospital bordered on farcical.

Separately I'm supposed to attend a endocrinology clinic in another hospital, all clinic appointments cancelled for almost 2 years, and I now have a bizzare telephone consultation every few months and have to arrange bloods, tests etc with my excellent GP in advance of the telephone consult. It's was an extremely busy clinic, dealing with all sorts of endocrinology issues and has been completely shut down for almost two years.

Ultimately my point is, there is definitely a cohort of front line Hospital staff that absolutely contributed and deserving of recognition but by absolutely no means were the entire staff effected or burdened additionally and in anyway. Harsh people might say but I speak from personal experience.

I would argue Nursing Home staff had the most awful and stressful experience during this Pandemic

Jinglejangle69

They saved lives doing the job they signed up to.

That should be reward enough for them.

ec18

It's the problem with anything to do with the public/civil service you can't just reward one group without the rest of the unions piling in. Health workers yes give them a few extra days holidays. Clerical staff who worked for home no you get nothing

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932906#Comment_117932906

Not entirely. In employment law, the term 'custom and practice' is a big factor and the working conditions for front line staff changed very quickly.

Wearing protective gear during long shifts and replacing it all the time is exhausting and very inefficient. I could go on but I do think front line workers should be given something as a reward.

patnor1011

Private sector employees who were "frontline" and "essential" workers got extra bonus during pandemic.

Fairly empty roads so they could get to work faster since they also had to queue in the rain when they had to go to shop to buy something.

Other than that most of them can say: What pandemic?

Goldengirl

My tuppence..as that is all frontline nurses can expect, I think , going on what has been proffered already .

@Dempo1 Many staff from regular , non Covid areas of hospital services were redeployed to acute care, both Covid and non Covid, meaning those services that are important , but less critical, were reduced . Nobody's fault just not enough bodies to do everything .

Also it is estimated at €350 to 500 million as a cost to give this mooted 10 days to frontline HCWs, but I would counter that

a) that is not what nurses are looking for , as it is nigh on impossible to get annual leave due already as it is, for a lot of nurses ,

b) the larger sum that Michael McGrath quoted was to give ALL public servants 10days off . This is a bit of a joke giving those who wfh compensation.

On the subject of monetary compensation , which is what most nurses want , not annual leave ...many frontline staff could not get childminders to mind their children especially in the first and second lockdowns and had to resort to expensive babysitting or continually swapping shifts to try to manage . This has never been addressed.

Also staff working in Covid areas had to isolate from family members and vulnerable relatives and friends before vaccinations , and many did not go out except to excercise even when restrictions were lifted , as they did not want to risk bringing infection to work .

Is all this as described not disruption, at the very least ?

Any worker out of pocket due to lockdown , be they nurses or anybody else who had to go out to work and wear PPE all day long , when others could work from home and did not have to risk their family or indeed their own health , should be compensated .

Many went above and beyond their normal job description and what would normally be expected even of them, in their daily lives , and I think it is very petty of some not to recognise this .

Workers in essential retail and other essential services, like ambulance people and firefighters, who had to go out every day and work should be included , but some of these have received bonuses already from their employers ( thinking of retail here )

I agree with those that say that public servants who did not have to go out to work but could work from home do not require compensation . That would be unions jumping on the bandwagon , increasing costs, and it denigrates the real effort by others .

The extra bank holiday would not be a bad thing and would be for everybody . A Remembrance day , where religious or secular services could be held , would be inclusive and of some comfort to everybody who has gone through a truly awful 18 months .

Might be of interest @Economics101 to have a poll of some sort at the top of the thread ?

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934560#Comment_117934560

Very hard to disagree with your observations, I will just say I saw first hand, hospitals essentially abandoned and as to other services, well, I suspect the waiting lists speak for themselves. Worth mentioning again, a clinic I'm supposed to attended every 3 months remains closed for 18 months and when I broke my leg, no, I repeat, no physiotherapy offered or available.

I reiterate I don't object to a reward or recognition but a little realism required I think and realistically if all public sector and some private included a €1 billion seems am under estimate

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934624#Comment_117934624

You do know physios and other staff were a bit busy elsewhere ? ICU and Covid ICU and wards . It was all hands on deck . Corridors were kept clear on purpose . This is all self explanatory at this stage really .

Also I attend one of those endocrinology clinics with my son, myself and to be honest am very happy that those staff , who were up to their eyes with all sorts of endocrine issues resulting from Covid infections, managed to keep up with 3 monthly virtual clinics.

People with issues like that , are high risk , as you know, to be attending in - person, in- house appointments . There is no way that risk could be justified during the worst of the pandemic. Not sure why you have not been back recently though once vaccinated .

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934638#Comment_117934638

Of course I know but you pointed out other staff diverted , I find it hard to believe all frontline staff in hospitals and other services diverted to Covid wards and ICU'S, That's somewhat stretching it a little.

When may I enquire were Physios for example sent into work in ICU'S or I might add Covid wards 🤔

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934654#Comment_117934654

One of the first problems with Covid is pneumonia . Physio.

All ventilated patients require physio.

They were also in attendance helping to probe patients and maintain muscle tone in all those very sick patients . That's just ICU.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934666#Comment_117934666

OK, I stand corrected and didn't wish to offend . I don't know what the answer is to this Reward, Recognition, Bank Holiday etc, I just feel notions of grandure setting in with various public service Unions loosing the run of themselves when the country on its knees financially. I also sincerely believe that n matter what gov come up with, its going yo cause division as i believe not everyone who contrubuted will be rewarded fairly.

I've to upmost respect for your profession and understand some services were impacted , but felt it important to pose the question as why some are still curtailed .

So I accept your points , just have a different view, that's all 😏

Amadan Dubh

A week of Bank Holidays for the country on the day we announce the end of covid emergency powers and restrictions is what the country needs. Set it for the Christmas time and let all the country just have the time off without using annual leave.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934689#Comment_117934689

FWIW I agree about the costs and think it should be tailored to those that the public genuinely feel should get something .

10 days annual leave is never going to be possible , but frontline staff in many countries have been given bonuses as have essential retail .

I think the bank holiday is possible and for everyone.

Beasty

In the overall scheme of things this would not cost that much, but it will ultimately add to debt short-term and the tax burden longer-term. As with all of this we are going to make future generations pay, when the current generation has extracted/exploited more of the World's resources than any other, and are leaving less for those future generations to benefit from.

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934709#Comment_117934709

100% agreed 👍

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934744#Comment_117934744

Maybe when they get the refunds from the PPE that couldn't be worn or the ventilators that were too dangerous to use they would have enough to pay a little compensation to those who deserve it in the HSE !

ZX7R

Compensation the worse word in the English dictionary that could have been used.

Something typically money given for loss ,injury or suffering.

Reward would be better in thus circumstances.

But most will say reward front line workers, doctors, nurses, paramedics, garda fire services army ect no doubt they deserve it.

But then what about truck drivers, security personnel, meat and all food related workers and many many others.

Where do you draw a line should a line be even drawn.

Should everyone not be compensated.

Will the rise in the budget be the reward for the pensioners for cocooning.

If a reward should be given should it not be done for the country and for everyone affected in it because in reality everyone was.

Darc19

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932468#Comment_117932468

Make it good Friday. It's taken as a holiday by most of the public sector already.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934962#Comment_117934962

That's where the bank holiday comes in , I would think .

rob316

An extra bank holiday for the next couple years would be plenty.

A bullshit PR tactic for a deeply unpopular government is all it is. The costs are absolutely ridiculous and where does it end who gets it? Now there saying all retail staff. **** that Aldi, Tesco, Dunne's, woodies made collosal profits it should be up to them to give bonuses.

Woodies parent group alone made a 164m profit, x4 the usual number.

I would actually benefit from this bonus but enough has been borrowed. It's ridiculous, what's another 1 billion sure 😡

rob316

Bank holiday,

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935370#Comment_117935370

Some of those Tesco I know for sure , have already given 10% extra in a bonus to their workers . It should of course be down to private companies to reward their own workers .

It's being enlarged and enlarged upon here .

All I have heard is frontline healthcare workers that would be coming out of the public purse and a one off payment would not be as big as some seem to think , given the high value to cost ratio.

Many countries are or already have done this, and as some have said workers in some private companies have already had bonuses .

And @ZX7R , compensation for 'pain and suffering 'endured by nurses and other healthcare workers in the last 18months sounds just about right !

rob316

Everyone did their job and it wasn't quite the hellish scenario been painted here for healthcare workers. It's frightening how 1bn is just such a small arbitrary figure been thrown around now like it's nothing.

Health professionals sign up to care for the ill, no matter what. They are well paid for this. Shop workers on the other hand don’t expect to be faced with situations like this. They are the ones who deserve recognition.

i, for one, am grateful to the many hundreds of shop workers, delivery drivers etc., who helped us during the lockdowns.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935653#Comment_117935653

How would you know tbf ?

You have denied Covid on the forum all the way so I don't think you quite understand how it was .

Either that or you are on a windup , which is possible too .

The only people mentioning a billion are you and others seeking to exaggerate the sums .

That number was a negotiation ploy by a government financial head to try to ensure that everyone is up in arms about " all public servants applying for this and that " and it is being quoted by some here disingenuously as if that is what is being sought.

That is not what has been or is being sought by us nurses as I have said a few posts back .

The maximum amount would come to €350 to €500 million which is less than what the HSE should be getting back in refunds for their misspend on incorrect PPE and useless outdated ventilators .

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935757#Comment_117935757

I've never denied COVID, so you can retract that thanks. Many in my extended family are nurses so I know unless they are lying to me.

Id rather see that tiny figure of 500m sunk into child and adolescent mental health services which are non existent as I'm painfully all to aware of. Because I can tell you it would make a nice difference.

This is nothing but a stunt for a deeply unpopular government and most can see through the BS.

Leo already saying this won't be exclusive to healthcare staff so the 1bn is probably more accurate.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935683#Comment_117935683

Exactly, public service is what you signed up for, and that is what was expected of you. Job security, excellent pension is your reward.

Private companies who benefitted should be the ones paying bonuses not the taxpayer.

There should be no further unnecessary expenditure of taxpayers money on this pandemic.

Goldengirl

Don't know if they have been working in any acute care to say this has not been hell so am afraid I take that with a pinch of salt .

I really don't remember you being on the side of nurses or healthcare workers at all in the last while so of course my comment stands .

Maybe it is a stunt , certainly was not impressed with McGrath and his carry on about all public servants.

That would probably include government tds etc. No need to be dragging healthcare workers into that though if you have a beef with Leo et al .

And to say that you want that money to go to CAMHS is of course laudable , it certainly won't be nurses taking that money away from that or any service .

That is like saying' we could give half a million to Disability services but we won't because we are giving nurses extra instead ' !

It is money probably allocated to bonuses for HSE bosses.

Stupid idea to be honest!

Health service can't cope with the few staff that they have already!

Everyone should feel entitled to something if this is the case!

Where will it end?

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935823#Comment_117935823

I have never once spoke out against healthcare workers. I haven't posted much here in the last while so that's probably why you haven't seen me.

And I'm sorry but that was the job you signed up for, helping sick people.

There is so many more deserving services and causes that would benefit from this potential 1bn expenditure. You just can't argue against that.

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934560#Comment_117934560

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935874#Comment_117935874

And your last post there ...?

Nurses did not sign up for all the extra that they were subject to through the pandemic.

We are looking at less than 350million but of course it serves your purpose to misrepresent by saying 1 billion.

I referenced this in my earlier post above and again at least 3 times more already . So if you continue to ignore what is being posted , not much point in replying .

joe40

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934716#Comment_117934716

Well someone's got a massive chip on their shoulder.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935892#Comment_117935892

Look 300m 500m 1bn, whatever sector gets it, it's **** galling when so many services are crying out for funding. Funding that would make an enormous difference to people's lives. This benefits no one.

Public health care workers, working through a public health crisis. There is nothing to sign up to extra this is all in the job description.

And of course ignore where I keep saying this 1bn figure includes other sectors not just healthcare workers.

PTH2009

Thank You Day

rob316

Let's waive all taxes in hospitality for one bank holiday, we all have a big party on the cheap and clap for the HSE. Everyone has a good time and the healthcare workers celebrated.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934744#Comment_117934744

Don't future generations always pay and gain? They may have to pay for one extra bank holiday, but they had 9 for 'free'

Isn't that the whole concept of future generations having a better living than previous ones?

We have so little public holidays as it is, despite the massive increase in our economy over the decades.

We have 9 public holidays, Italy 12, Austria, Belgium 14, Sweden 15.... We're are really bottom of the EU on Public Holidays.

Not to derail the thread, those frontline HCW's that were and are in the thick of it still, yes, I'd support compensation for them.....

As long as every WFH 'HCW' office clerk doesn't derail it looking for the same.... It's going to get messy.

is_that_so

 I'm really not sure about the merits of this. I do believe that the public service and some HCWs should certainly get some recognition but as people who work in the health system know not everybody contributed in the same way or made the same efforts. The  trouble is with something like this you can't really distinguish between groups without producing unnecessary public squabbles about it. And what kind of rewards do you give those non public service people, like those in retail?

To me the public holiday idea is of more benefit to everybody in the sense of recognizing that we have all been through this. Rewarding specific groups is going to be very expensive and it's already concerning that the government seems to be talking about tax cuts thus adding an extra layer to our debt. It also smells like electioneering and would be absolutely typical of the two larger parties to attempt to fence off the public service vote.

In the end I suspect they may come up with some type of compromise and rewards at lower levels than are currently being bandied about. 

The hospitals were very quiet during March and April 2020, quiet enough too until Christmas. The CMO said it after he attended for a procedure himself.There are so many people who will die from cancer now as they stayed at home with worrying symptoms rather than risk going to hospital. You know so many cases were caught in hospitals and instead of improving hospital infrastructure you want the government to spend millions to give you a bonus so you can treat yourself.

I have friends working in private hospitals, they had nothing to do during this time, they were actually forced to take annual leave.

You have a permanent job and you lost no income during the pandemic, other people had to live on 350 euros and because of covid payments their jobs will be deemed insecure so they may not qualify for mortgages in the future.

The government needs to stand up to people like you now,you know the health service is dismal, how can you put your hand out for a bonus when you know this money has to be funded by other taxpayers including the ones who were on covid payments for months.

Can you just get on with your job now so we can all put this nightmare behind us, I dont want any covid rememberance day either, I want to get on with my life now.

shesty

Bank Holiday.

Wonder will nursing home operators be reimbursing their staff for what they went through.....

Del Griffith

Probably the worst idea of all time, we are already facing a huge bill for the cost of the lockdown which is having knock on effects on things like pushing out the state pension age.

The absolute last thing on anyone's mind should be piling more cost on top of the debt as a 'reward'.

And for what, certain people in some sectors had a busy year? So what??

Absolutely ridiculous proposal and hope sanity prevails..

There will be murder if the politicans include themselves in the public sector bonus.

Imagine paying Revenue staff extra for sitting at home. How many office based Public servants have actually returned to the office.

This definitely sounds like keeping a huge public sector vote, its almost like something Sinn Fein would promise.

rob316

The idea of extra time off too is crazy for an already woefully underfunded and understaffed service, not to mention their is bottle neck of non COVID care now.