Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467997#Comment_118467997

you dont have to expect them to do anything, but i take it you are actively preventing them from doing this.

as i said, if you want to be put out or outraged work away, if it bothers you that much find a different school, if it doesnt then drink the kool aid. Life is too short, unless you are a devout catholic and you believe it is never ending.

Hotblack Desiato

Primary school contact hours are short enough and teachers are always saying there is too much stuff being crammed into the curriculum. You say yourself Cyrus that religious indoctrination in schools doesn't work (never did, unless it was backed up in the home, which it rarely is nowadays) so why is everyone's valuable time being wasted on it?

It can still be kept on an opt-in basis after school hours or on Sundays, with a priest or lay volunteer from the parish providing it. This is what already happens in ETs and it works fine, a good proportion of kids in ETs still do their Catholic big days out.

But no, it seems very very important to certain people, for some bizarre reason they can never state never mind explain, that children from non-Catholic families are forced to attend religious indoctrination classes. Even though the Constitution says they have the right not to.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468027#Comment_118468027

There is no 'different school'. 90% of schools are catholic schools. The tiny number of multi-denom schools are oversubscribed and limited by catchment areas. There is no other option for a different school.

Life is too short to have kids sitting through prayers, lessons, ceremonies for a religion that doesn't apply to them.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468929#Comment_118468929

like i said, if its that important to you do something about it, move, home school, whatever,

otherwise quit the moaning its only a small aspect of their schooling and if its a good school the pros outweigh the cons.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468881#Comment_118468881

You can take up your proposal of out-of-school activitives with Andrew who holds the position that it wouldn't be fair for his children to miss out on any organised events that he is after choosing to opt out of.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469062#Comment_118469062

So now I should move home, disrupt the entire family, move away from family supports and community connections, all because we allow religious groups to use State funding to spread their stories and indoctrinate children? Is the other solution entirely impossible for you - that we take religion out of State funded schools? Let people do their religion after hours or at Sunday school, if it's so important to them? Why should we tolerate this overreach by religious bodies clinging onto their last attempts to control people?

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469267#Comment_118469267

What about the parents who currently support the setup as is? You then asking them to disrupt their families and supports and community connections for your beliefs and viewpoints?

Is the best solution not a mix of schools for parents rather than a forced secular education model which you appear to be suggesting or am I wrong?

Basically,

Maybe im picking you and Hotblack up wrong, but is it in your view (and i believe ye may be leading the charge on this over on the A&A forum?) that their should be no state funded Catholic lead schools?

Edit: just to added an extra line or two to make more clear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118465206#Comment_118465206

It's really strange how right-wingers can't engage with the truth. They have to selectively alter the information to suit their imaginations so that they can then build their strawmen for burning. I'm not interested in changing a system to suit me, I'm just interested in seeing more balance and choice in it. Rather than supporting that choice, you'd rather fleece non-Catholic taxpayers to pay for an old-fashioned and bigoted system. But you are entitled to your views, regardless of how sectarian they are. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm just going to refresh and clean up my boards.ie feed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466251#Comment_118466251

You've made a sound argument for taking religious control away from schools. You probably didn't mean to, but that's what you did. If you want that retained, or if you really don't think it matters, it's not logical to set out the case that you did. For me, I'd just like to see more balance and more choice. Making non-Catholic taxpayers pay for Catholic schools is bigoted, and we shouldn't be bigoted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466253#Comment_118466253

You've argued that religious minorities should do things your way or leave. Where should an Irish person who's atheist or of a small minority faith go? And would you say the same to brown-skinned people, who are in a minority as well? It's not a hard question.

@Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466531#Comment_118466531

Read my post above this. @Cyrus said religious minorities should do what the majority do or leave. I'm asking does it apply to another minority - and I'm happy to go through the full list of minorities because it was a monumentally stupid and bigoted thing to say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466975#Comment_118466975

Of course you can post what you want, and sorry if I hurt your feelings. But you were wrong. I'm sure that wasn't your fault, but it wasn't mine either, so quit having a go at me.

If you think they're incompetent say so, because there's actually some evidence for that. But unless you've gone in and got video of them on their knees chucking out a shedload of Hail Marys the other stuff is just in your imagination.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118467283#Comment_118467283

My son went to an Educate Together school, and we all got 100% stuck in to end of term, Christmas and other celebratory events. We were all able to, regardless of religion. Many of us were atheists. But other parents and children belonged to "minor" faith groups as well. Nobody was excluded, and no one group's philosophy was allowed to dominate. Over the same years I got to attend some events in three other local schools, 1 Protestant and 2 Catholic. They were very nice events, but there was no mistaking the religious core to them, and it was easy to see why a person not of the dominant religion would feel (or even be) left out. Believers should have and should get the most out of those events and celebrations, but insisting that people who don't believe should have no choice but to be involved or be marked out for exclusion - and pay for the privilege - isn't right.

I don't think those who believe in whatever it is they believe in should be denied that, including in schools if that's what they need. But I do think we have failed and are failing to make enough space in the system for people who don't believe. For that reason, I'm not a campaigner to have the schools system entirely secularised. But I do think that we need far more non-religious schools than we currently have, and that regardless of where someone lives they have access to schools that meet their needs and choices. We have about 4,000 schools in Ireland, all funded by taxpayers, and it should not be beyond the wit of people to structure that system so that it properly makes provision for people of all faiths and none.

I appreciate that this won't win me too many friends on either side of the argument, but it's still the best way forward.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469343#Comment_118469343

Isn't it time for those parents to recognise that it's not the role of the State to subsidise their religious practices? They can do after-school classes or Sunday school, or they can home-school if they want. Why should the State be subsidising particular religions?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469343#Comment_118469343

Is the best solution not a mix of schools for parents rather than a forced secular education model

Yes, it would be. However with 90% of primary schools run by the Catholic Church, it will take decades to achieve that mix.

In the interim, the charade continues and these absolute cnuts still get to claim to be relevant in modern Ireland.

It's not right.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469845#Comment_118469845

A great post to go on about strawmen after posting blatant lies. Any more ad-hominem slurs apart from "right winger" in lieu of actual points?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470162#Comment_118470162

You were only whinging a few posts back that your little darling felt left out after you didn't let them partake in events and therefore that was another moaning point. If they have Saturday classes teaching the current religion curriculum, you'll then be moaning that it's not fair on your special little bundle of joy because they can't attend those because you won't let them. And therefore nobody else should be allowed to attend them.

Next thing we hear, you'll be trying to send your kid to Blackrock College, only to forbid them from playing rugby, and then mounting a petition that the school has to abandon its tradition in its entirety because it isn't fair on your kid that everyone else in the school is playing it and they get left out. Rather than having the cop on to think before you send them.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470162#Comment_118470162

So you want all secular schools. No religious schools? No tax funded religious catholic/Protestant /Muslim schools right?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470480#Comment_118470480

That poster explicitly admitted a few pages back that they would want to implement a situation where children attending a school which had Catholic patronage would be denied their Constitutionally protected right to an education

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470480#Comment_118470480

Yes, just like we have no religious libraries, no religious swimming pools, no religious tax offices, no religious toll plazas. If people want religion, let them do it on their own time and own dollar. Why should the state be funding religious activities?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470460#Comment_118470460

Is this the Trumpian tactic again of saying the actual reverse of what I said. Go back and read my post again.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468881#Comment_118468881

Did you not know that you can:

A) Choose to send your child to a different school (or homeschool)

B) Choose to send them to any given school but take them out when religion classes are on?

Glad to have cleared that up for you. All good now?

Usually when people try to invoke a strawman, they construct one which is actually true. In your case, you are depending on one that is not true

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470704#Comment_118470704

So the reverse would be that your child was happy because you prevented them from participating in school events.

Grand, no issue then.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469267#Comment_118469267

Back in the 80’s when my children were in primary school, I spoke to the school about my religious beliefs. I was and am a lapsed Catholic. I wished to withdraw my children from Religious Education. No problem. Maybe it was because it was a smallish school, but RE was the last class of the day and my kids were allowed leave after the previous class. Talk to the school. You won’t be the only one in this position. (Unlike me)!

Personally, I think religion should be within the family and Church. Not the school. In secondary school, it was a bit easier, as it wasn’t Religion as such.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469900#Comment_118469900

This post tells everyone all they need to know about you. I won't dignify it with a response.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470704#Comment_118470704

If you join the army you wear the boots. If you sent you children to a Catholic ethos school you accept that. If not you send them elsewhere. I have seen parents send children to a post primary school 10-15 miles away. I live near a small town with am excellent PP school and yet I see parents by pass it to send children into an all girls school in the city or a in the case of boys to a prestigious mixed school.

There is another poster on about the inclusiveness of ET schools just because they give a secular play at Christmas. What the point of trying to celebrate Christmas if it is not in you faith believe. Maybe they should also face the other way from Mecca in the morning for to copy a Muslim prayer or have an alternative Passover ceremony.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118469900#Comment_118469900

Doubling down isn’t going to make your post any less out of line.

And catering for minorities is fine, but not at the expense of the majority. In this case, what’s being proposed is removing something the majority voluntarily participate in (you can assign whatever reasons you like but that’s the reality), which indicates they want it, to appease a small minority of cranks. That is not acceptable behaviour.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118468881#Comment_118468881

The answer to the complaint that there’s too much crammed into the curriculum is not to remove something that used not be a problem. It’s to stop cramming more things into the curriculum when they’re not needed and in many cases, not wanted.

The schools are not “indoctrinating” the students. The parents are choosing to raise their children Catholic (or wherever other religion) and want their children taught the details by trained professional teachers, like all of the other subjects most parents don’t have enough expert knowledge to teach their children themselves. If you think children will believe what their teacher tells them when their parents regularly contradict it, you’re clearly either not a teacher, or you’ve never taught students with parents who contradict the school’s teachings.

And as has already been pointed out, the students are not forced to attend, and you know this. You have a choice to either send them to another school or take them out of school during religion classes. If you’re not willing to do either, you clearly don’t feel strongly enough about it to justify catering to your wishes over those of the majority.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471215#Comment_118471215

Doubling down? First of all, it wasn't you I was asking, so no need to be sensitive about it. It's really simple, if someone doesn't want to be thought of as having dodgy ideas, it's probably better they don't post dodgy ideas.

It also seems from your posts that you're happy with a religious bias in the system. You're entitled to your opinion, but other people think differently. And once again, why should people have their tax money taken off them and used to fund a school system based on religious bias, and then be told that if they don't live in the right place or belong to the right religion they have to suck it up?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471121#Comment_118471121

How many times do I have to explain that there is no "school elsewhere". 90% of schools are church schools, and the remainder, the tiny number of ET schools are heavily oversubscribed with catchment area rules.

People have been celebrating Christmas long before Christianity, and will be doing so long after Christianity has faded away, if we haven't destroyed our planet in the meantime. It is about the time of year, not a mythical story.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118470726#Comment_118470726

My children won't be complaining about missing the Saturday morning classes, just like they don't complain about missing hockey and missing chess because they will participate fully in all school activities and their chosen after school activities.

And we both know the number of parents that will invest their time and money in catholic club will be tiny.