Religion and Engaging with the Teacher

Hotblack Desiato

I do find it very odd RealJohn that you'd rather have religious instruction delivered by a teacher who may not believe in it or want to teach it (but is forced to) rather than a person selected by the parish and willing to do so.

It's even more bizarre that you and Cyrus maintain that religious instruction during the school day should be retained while also accepting the fact that most kids end up rejecting religion. That just proves it's a massive waste of time.

Irish kids spend far more time on religion in school than in most other countries. Well, apart from Islamic republics...

It's a waste of valuable and limited time and resources, and a large and increasing proportion of parents and teachers regard it as a complete farce. But only a small percentage of schools don't force everyone to go along with this farce while pretending Ireland is still in the 1950s.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471543#Comment_118471543

Yet you were moaning about being "left out on key school events" in response to a post about Communions. (Post #502)

Communions being a ceremony that is held on Saturdays (at least in these parts).

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471617#Comment_118471617

I’d rather have all education delivered by a professional teacher who’s an expert at imparting knowledge to students. The person with the most knowledge in a subject is not always the person best placed to impart that knowledge.

I also never said that most students reject religion. In my experience, an awful lot of people who weren’t particularly fussed about religion when they were young (not necessarily reject it, but didn’t really care) see its value when they get older.

What I did say is that if they’re being told the opposite by their parents, they rarely decide that the teacher is more likely to be right (even though they often are). This obviously doesn’t just apply to religion. It’s just more likely to come up in the context of religion.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471451#Comment_118471451

I’m not “sensitive” about it. I’m pointing out that you made an ad hominem attack on another poster when your previous posting had been sensible and measured.

As for people having their taxes taken off them for a school system that they don’t necessarily agree with, that’s the case for everyone. Why should I have to put up with my taxes paying primary teachers who couldn’t be bothered to learn Irish or maths well enough to teach them well? The system isn’t perfect but it’s pretty good for the most part. The majority still want religious instruction (not indoctrination) included. That’s how democracies work: the state provides what the people want, generally based on what the majority wants. You can’t provide for every minority, and you know it.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471955#Comment_118471955

"The majority still want religious instruction (not indoctrination) included."

Have you a link for this, or is that just your gut feeling?

I wonder if the majority of parents are happy that 10% of the curriculum in National schools is taken up by religious instruction at the expense of Literacy, Numeracy, Science etc etc.

91 hours a year is a lot of time. For those that want to opt out, that's 91 hours of sitting in school but not being taught. Disgraceful.

RealJohn

Because the majority aren’t complaining about it, the majority still baptise their kids, and the majority still opt in to entirely optional ceremonies like first confession, first communion, confirmation. “Just to keep the grandparents happy” is the one for which there’s no evidence, I’m afraid.

And what’s negatively affecting “literacy, numeracy, science etc etc” is lack of competence and a lack of political will to change that, not lack of time spent on them.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118472441#Comment_118472441

So you've no evidence whatsoever that parents are happy with 10% of their child's education being used up with a subject that less than 3% of them will take as a Leaving Certificate subject??

Less than 1% of the population "complained" about the child abuse that was covered up for years by the church. By your reckoning the majority of the population were happy about that??

As for your last point: Do you honestly believe that a child's literacy and numeracy skills would not improve with 91 hours more teaching of those skills in a single school year?? Honestly?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471955#Comment_118471955

That 'majority' that wants religious instruction seems to be remarkably absent from churches on Sunday mornings when it comes to having to get out of bed and practice their religion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471748#Comment_118471748

With communions in particular, it's not just about the ceremony itself but the hours of preparation that go on beforehand, with it being a major part of the agenda for that year of primary school. Take all the preparation out of school time, and it is no longer a school event.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118471261#Comment_118471261

There is no choice to send them to another school when 90% of schools are church schools, and the remaining schools are heavily oversubscribed with catchment area rules. You can't take them out of school for certain classes if parents are working. You can't take them out of school for every prayer, for every altar, for every statue, for every 'is there anything to be said for another Mass', for every nativity play and every music event based around religious materials.

Hotblack Desiato

It's ironic to say the least that baptism rates are cited as 'proof' of demand for catholic schools, when until a few years ago there was a real possibility of your child having great difficulty getting any school place if not baptised - and excluding kids purely on the basis of not being baptised was legal.

Baptism rates are falling but no doubt some people are still under the impression that it may be necessary for a school place, and that perception will take some time to fully fade away.

Marriage is where couples have a real choice with no consequences (apart from possibly annoying mother-in-law) and fewer than half of marriages are now religious marriages. Yet when they come to enrol their kids in a school they'll be still faced with a system where over 90% of schools are religious patronage and teach it as fact during the school day for approx. 10% of teaching hours.

It's crazy and it's completely indefensible. A majority of people silently going along with something (where they have no other choice) is NOT consent or agreement or a good reason to keep doing something because it was the way things were done >100 years ago.

The real reason for the vehement rearguard action in defence of the status quo is, as Renko mentioned, this:

And we both know the number of parents that will invest their time and money in catholic club will be tiny.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473601#Comment_118473601

Except that, again, you tell lies. Unless 50.2% is "fewer than half" ......maybe it is up there with your earlier similar definition of "more than half" being less than 50%?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-mar/marriages2020/marriages2020mainresults/

In 2020, religious ceremonies accounted for 50.2% of all marriages

Percentage of opposite-sex couples opting for religious ceremonies (51.4%)

9,209 opposite sex marriages total. Of the opposite-sex marriages, 16.5% had one person not on their first marriage. If divorced, they would have been prevented from a Catholic church wedding the second time around. Some people may opt not to have a big wedding but prefer a small ceremony. Some people might also - shock horror for you - not be as bigoted as many on here, and get married to a person of another religion and just have a neutral civil ceremony.

What is ironic is your obsession with other people's religion (or none). It is none of your business whether a person would prefer a teacher or a "person selected by the parish". Nor is it any of your, or Andrew's, business how often a person goes to mass. Mind your own business and stop intruding and trying to impose your own beliefs and "standards" onto others.

I had a brief glance over at your Atheism forum. It's actually gas. I didn't see any threads about Atheism - just threads moaning about other religions. How sad is that? Defining ones self by bitching about others.

As for this:

And we both know the number of parents that will invest their time and money in catholic club will be tiny.

You can be safe in the knowledge that communions, confirmations etc, already take place outside of school hours and most parents do make the effort....because they turn up. Given the previous evidence of your understanding of basic stats, you probably assume "tiny" is 90% or whatever.

What the evidence does show us would be tiny would be the number of "atheists" who would actually get up off their arses and make a basic effort to do something positive rather than perpetually making themselves the victim and moan moan moaning. Structures are there. And you'll be posting the same guff in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, because you won't have made any effort to do anything positive to effect this imaginary desired change.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473086#Comment_118473086

I’ve plenty of evidence but I’ve already provided some of it and have no intention of providing it every time someone asked for it. If you want it, read back over the thread.

You have revealed a fundamental misunderstanding on your part though: school is not merely a prep course for the leaving cert, and especially not at primary level.

As for whether the children’s literacy and numeracy skills would improve with an extra 91 hours a year, no, I don’t think they would unless they’re being taught effectively during that time. You’ve revealed another thing you either don’t understand or are deliberately misrepresenting: they do actually read things in religion. In fact, it’s probably one of the areas where they get most practice reading, since they’d be expected to read along with the mass, etc. so that time can (and in fact is) being used for literacy, whatever about numeracy (and there’s scope for numeracy in there too). If you’re you genuinely think that all time spent on religion is time taken from numeracy and especially literacy, you do not understand teaching.

RealJohn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473261#Comment_118473261

Whether people go to mass or not has little to do with whether or not they want religious instruction. Plenty of people who would vehemently insist that they’re practicing Catholics hardly ever go to mass. Should they be going to mass? Probably. Does that mean they’re not raising their kids as Catholics? Absolutely not.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473911#Comment_118473911

As I suspected "no evidence whatsoever".

There has never been a question put to parents in this country along the lines of

"Are you happy with 10% of your child's time in school being used to forward the teachings and dogma of a billionaire company that has been found to harbour and facilitate child abuse and abusers? Please bear in mind that these teachings will include graphic depictions of blackmail and torture and accounts of science-defying activities depicted as fact." Please tick Y/N

Your point regarding literacy is a very good one which hadn't occurred to me. However it will be difficult for me to debate a point with someone who stands by their belief that an extra 91 hours of teaching time would make no difference to a child's development.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473844#Comment_118473844

Wow, looks like I touched a nerve with the reminder of the cavernous empty churches on Sunday mornings despite all those people who are so desperately committed to a catholic upbringing. Mass attendance isn't MY standard at all - it is a catholic church standard. Isn't it a basic fundamental activity for catholics to attend Mass regularly. Bit strange for them to expect the entire education system to be built around their needs, while they can't be arsed getting out of the scratcher on Sunday mornings for an hour to put their frightfully important principles into practice. A cynic might be forgiven for thinking that it's not really all that important to them at all.

And thanks for the update on 'my' Athiest forum. It's ironic that you think it is 'my' forum somehow, as I don't think I've ever posted there. Or certainly it's not somewhere I would post regularly.

And you finish off with your repeated 'get up of their arses and make an effort' despite the fact that you've completely failed to show any school that has been built in recent years through people getting up off their arses. That's just a distraction tactic, isn't it? Be honest now. God is watching you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473932#Comment_118473932

Isn't it a fundamental tenet of catholicism to attend mass at least weekly? How can they pretend to be raising their kids as catholics if they're not going to mass regularly?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118474825#Comment_118474825

You may notice that the post in which I mentioned Atheist forum was in reply to another account, which I assume is not controlled by you.

Not everything is about you. As much as you think it might be or should be.

I'm fed up spoonfeeding you dude. Put in the tiniest bit of effort and do your own research.

And btw, whether a parent goes to mass or does not is again, none of your business. A parent might also like to send their child to a school with a strong sports ethos (e.g. a rugby school). It isn't a requirement that they have to have a season pass to Landsdowne Road. Stop being obsessed with others' lives and stop prying and interfering. It's weird.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118474882#Comment_118474882

So you think Hotblack owns the Athiest forum?

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118473844#Comment_118473844

How weird! The atheist forum discussing religion.

Whatever next? The environmental issues forum discussing pollution??

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475180#Comment_118475180

Well you can go to the soccer forum and check whether all the posts are talking about soccer or bitching about GAA/snooker/Athletics/boxing etc.

Define yourself by what you are. Not by what others are and you are not.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475209#Comment_118475209

That would be great if religion wasn't being imposed in people in Ireland in schools, in the Dail, in the Aras and elsewhere.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475257#Comment_118475257

Jesus man. Stop clinging on to victimhood. You have choice. If you are not aware of that, educate yourself on the many different options available. If you are either too lazy to avail of that choice, or this is another reason why you don't want to (e.g. the reason I mentioned above that many ET schools have "new arrivals" in them and you might have an aversion to that for some reason, or are in areas with cheaper housing and you also don't want your kids to be mixing with those kids) then that your own issue for you to solve yourself, not for others to hold your hand to do it. People are just people and just because others are different doesn't mean they are not as "good" as you!

Live and let live.

Choochtown

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475209#Comment_118475209

I don't understand your point.

Is soccer the opposite of snooker?

Atheism is the lack of a belief in God or gods. What do you think is going to be discussed in that forum.

Have a look at the environmental issues forum. Hardly surprising that there are many discussions around pollution and things that harm the environment.

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118459599#Comment_118459599

Take umbrage all you like, being a "sock puppet" as you say yourself isn't dependent on the number of posts or age of your account, is it? Or who exactly do you think I'm alt-ing for?

You might also find it enlightening to take a look at the 2011 and 2016 census data, specifically related to faith, with a keen eye to school-aged children, and reproductive-aged adult demographics. That's more accurate than the "90% Catholic" banana split you're trying to shove down people's throats, from both accounts.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475323#Comment_118475323

There is no choice, with 90% of schools catholic, and ET schools oversubscribed with catchment area rules. Are you seriously suggesting that people should move house just to not have to be indoctrinated at school?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475439#Comment_118475439

I suppose that these dedicated non-Catholics should really stop being hypocritical then and stop taking advantage of the generously provided Catholic educational facilities. If the Catholic school next door is well run and has a good ethos and reputation and you decide to send your child there to take advantage of that, then maybe say "thanks" instead of moaning?

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475564#Comment_118475564

No, they're suggesting that anyone not subscribing to the Roman Catholic faith can also homeschool, or just suck it up and have their child indoctrinated into a faith that contradicts your legally protected beliefs (either actively or by stealth) rather than try to effect a change that would make the Irish education system more representative of the faith profile of the country. They don't want any changes made since they're supported in their beliefs by the status quo.

They might like to read some of the writings of Anne Hession and Patricia Kieran related to the teaching of religion by teachers who are not active in the faith and the impact of same on the faith formation of children who are part of said faith, but that seems unlikely given the engagement on the thread to date.

BettyBlue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448975#Comment_118448975

I can't speak to the others but I know for certain Scoil an Trionoide Naofa in Limerick is an amalgamation of a CBS, a Mercy convent, and a community school in a local village. So 3 schools, 2 of which were religious schools became 1. It wasn't an increase in religious schools, it's a reduction by 1.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475564#Comment_118475564

Yes there is choice. That's 10% of schools. If daddy wasn't smart enough to consider thinking ahead to buy a house in an area that he wanted Junior to go to school, he'll have to explain that to Junior. If he now doesn't want to make the effort to move to that area, he can explain that too. Your catchment area waffle backfires here as that would make it more likely that you would succeed in getting into that school should you move to its catchment area. Note also that there is no rule excluding those outside the catchment area. It would just mean that the first seats are allocated to those within that catchment. If there is actual persistent demand from outside the catchment, and the school is oversubscribed, then the school can always expand to take them.

As pointed out previously, and it is perfectly logical so you can't really argue against it, new schools are often built where there have been large new development and expansion of housing. Those areas tend to have the cheaper housing and so would be financially easier to move to. It is fact that most new schools over the past decade or two have been non-denominational. There have also been well documented cases of new schools being overwhelmingly populated by children of immigrants/foreign nationals and of "native Irish" refusing to send their kids to those schools because of that. The "native Irish" tend to want to stick with the existing schools. That may or may not be a factor in your decision that an existing ET school is "not an option" for you.

If you want to put barriers in your own way, then you are entitled to do so. The choice and options are there. If you don't consider it a choice to send your child to those new schools, be they religious or non-denominational, then that is specific to you.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475717#Comment_118475717

1) Yes, 10% all round the country - so that's a very small minority.

2) Daddy's problem is that the existence of schools can't be planned ahead. No-one can tell Daddy what schools will be in existence 5-10 years down the line.

3) Yes, being in the catchment area does improve your chances, but it doesn't guarantee it, so if Daddy did move house, he'd still be facing the possibility that he won't get his kids into the heavily oversubscribed ET schools.

4) The oversubscribed school absolutely can't just expand. Expansions are decided by the Department, based on demographics. They take years to agree, and years to procure and years to build. The kids will be starting their career before the expanded school is available.

It might be time to admit that you've no realistic solution to offer parents who prefer not to have their kids indoctrinated in their State funded school.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475682#Comment_118475682

Though it would probably increase the percentage of religious schools, given the elimination of one non-religious schools. Not hard to see which set of parents are expected to sacrifice their ethos.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118475885#Comment_118475885

You see, herein lies the nub of your problem. You are the one creating and imagining an issue, and forcing yourself into a self-perceived state of victimhood, and yet you are trying to put the responsibility on others to fix it for you.

Here are some solutions on you. After this, I can't waste any more time spoonfeeding you basic facts:

Solution 1: Enroll your kids in an existing ET school and be more tolerant if there are a lot of children of "new people" there. Your ET schools in upmarket fancy areas may well be oversubscribed, but it is much more likely that schools in less otherwise desirable locations will indeed have spaces available. So it's up to you to make your choice based on your priorities.

Solution 2: Send then to the a denominated school and take them out for any religious classes or events.

Solution 3: Do a bit of organising and be set up to take advantage of the next opportunity to set up a new school. Drum up support, or if too lazy to do anything yourself, support those who actually get off their arses. There was one highly publicised case about 10 or 15 years ago about an ET school that was set up in 3 or 4 weeks. It was controversial for a number of reasons. One being that it was populated almost 100% by non-white children and second that it was subsequently prioritised for dedicated facilites over an existing Gaelscoil that had been operating in a temporary facility and was waiting for the department to allocate proper facilities.

Solution 4: Homeschool you kids.

Solution 5: Plan ahead before buying a house so that you are in the catchment area of the school you want your children to attend

Solution 6: Stop being so dramatic about everything and just let the kid go to school with their friends without using them to push your own agendas.

Solution 7: Move to an area with a school of the type of your choice. As pointed out, this would generally be financially viable due to the bias of new areas having both non-denomination schools and lower cost housing. If you are feel that you would be too good to be associating with the neighbours, then that is a different issue.

Loads and loads of options for you. If you want to keep putting obstacles in your own way, then that is your choice.