How to approach teacher about my brother's non-uniform coat being seized?

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927384#Comment_117927384

Zero tolerance is fine, ok rules are rules... there is also another rule.. that supersedes any school rule, the rule of law...Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001. As I said I’d go to the Gardai, make a complaint, name the individual who took the coat and let them carry out their duty accordingly.

i wouldn’t be going cap in hand trying to negotiate...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927834#Comment_117927834

Wall now, to be fair, the gardai will not take a report of this as theft because it is not.

JimmyVik

Our school used to fine you £1 for not having an item of your uniform on properly. Like your tie wasnt straight or you came in after lunch with your jumper around your waist.

They must have made a fortune out of it.

Then a new guy started in school and they fined him for something stupid a few times.

His mother was a solicitor and about 6 months after that we all got loads of money back from the school for the fines we had been paying over the years. It was like Christmas.

I dont know for sure, but i heard that the mother took a case against the school and the school hadnt issued recipts for these "fines" and it became a big thing and they lost.

Id love to know the full story.

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928218#Comment_117928218

"I am very clever"

In the strictest sense, laws have to be written that specifically exclude certain types of seizures as being considered "theft". If property is seized and it is not covered by one of these exclusions, it is theft.

It is not theft if you voluntarily hand over your jacket, but it is theft if they refuse to return it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928490#Comment_117928490

Not theft.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928534#Comment_117928534

Explain, in detail, why its not theft

"school rules" don't stop it being theft, which I suspect is all you have to fall back on.

turbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058209997/how-to-approach-teacher-about-my-brothers-non-uniform-coat-being-seized

Jeremy,

I suggest you write a letter to the principal, and ask for written clarification and a formal statement about this:

I suggest you frame it as follows:

Your brother was wearing a high visibility jacket that afforded him mobility and safety while cycling to and from school;

Your brother was choosing a low carbon and sustainable mode of transport - cycling - wearing recommended attire for this;

The school have confiscated this safety equipment, effectively rendering him more at risk while cycling.

Cycling features a number of situations where risks are elevated, such as cycling in the rain or in the dark, or in mist, or poorly lit roads, where a high vis jacket may save his life - and the school has since removed his ability to do so.

I would then ask:

What is the schools policy for safe cycling? Why is your brother being punished for following Government guidance for responsible cycling?

Why is the school pursuing a policy that increases road safety risks for students - contravening RSA guidelines ( https://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Pedestrians-and-Cyclists/Cycling-safety/ )?

If something were to happen to your brother or any other student affected by this policy, discouraged from wearing attire that affords safety cycling, is the school prepared to admit liability?

Have the school uniform policy makers considered modes of transport and associated risks? Or is reduced safety cycling considered an appropriate risk?

I would then request:

A formal statement from the school on this matter.

Confirmation the schools insurance covers students in this scenario.

An enquiry into how many students may be discouraged from safer cycling - and who is responsible for this negligent messaging. Has the school actively discouraged students from safe cycling? Are their alumni who avoided habit of hi-vis clothing, due to this poorly considered culture?

And then request:

Your brothers safety equipment be returned to him immediately

AND

The school take, with immediate effect, MASSIVE ACTION by the school to advocate for students who are cycling or using any at risk mode of transport to be allowed to wear higher vis jackets and clearly state BECAUSE UNLESS THE SCHOOL DOES THIS, sooner or later, maybe this year, maybe in 5, someone's health may be compromised due to a cycling accident - which can have far reaching effects on cyclists, their families and road drivers and passers by. And if they do not, you will bring this matter to the attention of the RSA and your local TD and the Minister of Transport, because one letter may save someone's life or quality of future.

I'd cite the following article as a single data point:

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-high-cyclist-deaths-eu-4990173-Feb2020/#:~:text=The%20report%20shows%20a%20total,means%20the%20figure%20is%20understated.

I'm pretty sure any journalist who likes to cycle will take a similar view. Acting on this may save students lives - so much so - it is worthy of a national campaign!

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928525#Comment_117928525

They aren't refusing to return it. In fact, they've even gone as far as contacting the imaginary brother's sister to come, collect the jacket and have a chat about the schools rules. So, in the strictest sense, since there is a mechanism to return the property, it would excuse this type of seizure, so that it is not theft.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928534#Comment_117928534

1) Subject to section 5 , a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

Is Theft.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928624#Comment_117928624

A convoluted offer of return after a demanded grovelling is not a get-out. They are refusing to simply return the item to the adult they stole it off.

Reporting this theft appropriately may stop it being done to someone else in future.

growleaves

Posters are confusing legal positivism with the law.

Neither a guard nor a judge will interpret the law against theft to mean that a school which has temporarily confiscated an item from a student has committed a crime.

It would be fun if someone really does go to the guards. Please report back here exactly what they do/say.

c.p.w.g.w

This happened to me in school...I basically told them that their actions were very similar to that of the Nazi party, which i was studying at the time...that didn't go down very well mind...I remember i had the idea of photoshopping the principle and the teachers faces on nazi's to posting them all over to school in protest, but was talked out of it

My old lad sorted it all out tho, pointed out that we were a working class family with 1 car so my only means was cycling, and in order to complete my journey safely was with a proper jacket and not some tad that the principles friend sold for a inflated price

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928629#Comment_117928629

But the teacher didn't dishonestly appropriate the property. They gave the reason why it was being confiscated - whether we think the rule is correct or not, a reason that matches the rules of the school was given - and later said it would be returned after a meeting with the parent/guardian.

If the teacher had have said that there was a school rule where you couldn't wear that type of jacket but there was no rule then it would have been dishonestly appropriated.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928676#Comment_117928676

There is no basis or indeed legal right to involve the parent/guardian of an adult. Reports can't even be sent to parents of over-18s.

c.p.w.g.w

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927137#Comment_117927137

Its more the case of

Sit down, Shut up and do as you are told...Anyone different is a problem and requires a diagnosis*

*A friend works in the field of Occupational Therapy and has said any child who is just bored and acts up, is very often just medicated to mark the parents and teachers lives easier...and some of the Dr's are well own for prescribion drugs as the first course of action

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928629#Comment_117928629

If he or she DISHONESTLY appropriates. The teacher has not dishonestly appropriated anything. She took it as per the school rules that are sent to all students and parents and are agreed upon as part of the student-school contract.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928684#Comment_117928684

That's not my point, I don't know anything about that. I was simply suggesting that Strumm's definition of theft seems to be different to what actually happened here.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928696#Comment_117928696

A "student-school contract" would fall apart legally for having absolutely nothing of benefit to the student (they are entitled to the education regardless), contracts require consideration in Ireland to be legal.

Additionally, if signed before they were 18 it would have to meet very narrow requirements to even be legal as there are extremely limited circumstances where a child can even sign a contract. Anything the parents agreed to won't be valid on the child reaching majority, which they have in this case.

"School Rules" cannot override the law

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928696#Comment_117928696

Because it’s written on paper doesn’t mean it’s legal..

if a school put on paper “ if your child talks they’ll be slapped “. A parent could sign their consent but that is still assault... taking somebody’s property is theft.

joe40

This thread is beyond ridiculous. The school confiscated a jacket that was not part of the uniform. i personally think that was a OTT but certainly not theft.

The pupil is 18, he is under no compulsion to attend that school. If you choose a school you choose the rules of that school.

Calling this theft is is pure nonsense. Go in get the jacket end of story. Your brother could wear hi viz gear over uniform when cycling.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928736#Comment_117928736

Don't forget he was accosted by the teacher first.

That's False imprisonment under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act

Good luck at trial

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928792#Comment_117928792

Lucky he didn't get detention or there'd be kidnapping too. Some amount of zoomers on this site.

HildaOgdenx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928664#Comment_117928664

Posters are also confusing made up tales with reality, in my opinion.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928517#Comment_117928517

If they refuse to return the jacket when requested to do so, what is it? It is not the school's property, is it?

By the way, I suspect those suggestions of the OP spoofing are probably correct, it's the same Swedish raised 'supposedly' female poster who started a thread asking if any other young women also opposed amendment of the 8th. <eye roll>

blackbox

If the school jacket was too warm, why didn't the cyclist simply put it on his back carrier?

Upon arrival at school he could simply take off his non-uniform safety jacket.

He may not like the rules, but it's not that hard to comply with them.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928517#Comment_117928517

Pretty sure the gardai can't actually 'choose' what they take a report of or not, their actions are discretionary though and I doubt they'd be moved in this case (unless they went to a similar school lol), making the report will have it entered in the day book and your solicitor could use that (again theoretically), still astounded to think people actually believe schools can get away with stuff like this today.

Confiscation has it's place but anything confiscated should be returned 'after' school.

Personally, I'd just go to the school and ask for it back, there wouldn't be an apology in this case but I wouldn't be threatening to go 'legal' either.

Re. the fines, a similar thing happened locally when I was in my teens, the gardai were called in that one, was a sensation lol.

Dial Hard

I love how people are bickering about this as if it's something that actually happened, rather than a giant figment of Mr. Feg's imagination. What a giant waste of everyone's time.

cnocbui

Not that I have any confidence in the veracity of the poster or supposed incident, but hypothetically, if a school confiscated a high viz jacket from a student known to cycle to and from school, and the weather turned dark and dire and the student was injured or killed on the way home, with the driver claiming they didn't see them as they were only wearing a dark uniform, would the school not be culpable?

My children's PS issued high viz vests and were upset about kids arriving at school not wearing them.

The grave stupidity of depriving a student of hi-viz gear, and the potential negative legal consequences that might follow, make me doubt this story has any basis in reality.

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929087#Comment_117929087

I remember reading the 'rules' for my eldest lad's secondary school last year, they actually described this exact scenario, any non uniform coat (uni is grey but quite trendy), would be confiscated, had me thinking of old dayglo waterproofs I'd worn when cycling in the rain (the mortification), no exceptions etc, the item would have to be collected by a parent/guardian and a note would be made in the student's journal for the parent/guardian to sign. Some daft stuff going on in schools.

HildaOgdenx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929062#Comment_117929062

Exactly.

And I do wonder if those taking it seriously, who have children, warn them not to believe EVERYTHING they read on the internet, cos sometimes things are not true... 😂