Varadkar hits the right note for Landlords

handlemaster

https://www.joe.ie/news/leo-varadkar-rent-freeze-731566?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=onsite_share

Varadkar talking common sence which contrary to popular belief is not very common within the SF party.

Housing is a human right.

Dempo1

I can predict we're this will go.

Leo Talking common Sense is a rare thing, he does make a fair point as there are clearly two sides to the rental crisis coin but the "common sense" comment is not going to actually achieve anything sensible. More a sound bite and utterly meaningless.

Intriguing the added comment about the SF party, it would seem not a single thing, Leo says or does can not have a slight thrown in about SF thrown into the mix.

I listened to the late Debate last night and my god, it is very clear where this Housing for all plan is going, clearly not much common sense put into its drafting and indeed by all accounts its implementation. The FG representative (Limerick City) was savaged and wasn't talking any sense at all.

Common Sense not at all evident it would seem.

agoodpunt

Its to late an accountant friend does work for LLs says there is a mass exodus ATM Tax regs and pending changes to happen in the next goverment.

Good for those who can buy or want or free right to housing mongrels but the working poor will pay dearly for accommodation if they can find

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922313#Comment_117922313

Is it ? Why aren't the government providing it , or the one before this one or the one before ? There is not interest from the public to mass fund large social building projects by additionally burdening tax payers. Sure we have the sound bites from opposition parties like yours but actually funding it is a different issue.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922313#Comment_117922313

So is food.

But we don't make the government provide it for everyone.

nullObjects

Bunch of small portfolio landlords are already leaving the market due to the punitive changes in the way their income is taxed

When these properties disappear it's not gonna help with the supply issues people keep talking about

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922761#Comment_117922761

Because home owners and landlords with an interest in ensuring that rents stay high and house prices stay high are more likely to vote for the likes of Fine Gael.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922313#Comment_117922313

Great news. I'll have a 5 bed in Howth with a sea view and tennis court please.

I am not a landlord and I very rarely agree with Varadker . I do however agree with Leo 100 percent here.

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922794#Comment_117922794

Why would that be ? The majority of the people own their own property so I don't see what your issue is.

LasersGoPewPew

I agree with Leo. Landlords income should be protected but rents should not rise any further, I'm in favour of a cap. Landlords should have the right to kick out non-paying and problematic tenants easily within a couple of months and not a 2-3+ year process that it currently is. But nobody seemingly wants to implement landlord rights nowadays.

JPup

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922774#Comment_117922774

We literally do. There are all sorts of social welfare payments to help people stay off the poverty line as much as possible. Even for people who are totally destitute, there are homeless shelters and food banks etc. No-one should starve to death in Ireland. It is a cornerstone of our social contract I would say. The famine still looms large in people's collective memories despite being so long ago.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922886#Comment_117922886

There are housing payments. So there's that sorted so?

Tombo2001

There is a massive contradiction in people's constant demands for better housing supply on the one hand, and the denigrating of landlords on the other.

Landlords bring housing into the market place. Thats what we want. So lets kick them. Lets do everything we can not to encourage them.

Makes no sense.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922873#Comment_117922873

Here's a novel idea , if a taxi man decided to ask a hundred quid to drive passengers from o connell St to Croke Park, the passenger would quickly notice that a nearby taxi was willing to do it for a tenner or less .

The point being, the only thing that drives down prices for consumers is choice

Supply is the only remedy to rental prices ,sure punishing landlords has always been a goal in of itself for socialists ( and its the left who dominate the debate here ) but in the end only more supply - choices will help renters

SF have made opposing development a cornerstone of their Dublin strategy

Donald Trump

A rental cap is a direct intervention in the market. If his reason against direct intervention is that it would negatively affect the income of a certain selection of society, i.e. it would distort the market, then that same reason holds for indirect intervention.

That would mean no more government schemes or reliefs for any developer/investor and also no more intervention in the housing market by the State. So no subsidised rents, no payment of rent to private landlords for social housing, and also no purchasing or building of social housing. If you want to take it to the full extreme, it would also mean removing standards and protections.

I personally think that the government should indeed be intervening directly in the market by encouraging and promoting development and by penalising those who hinder it.

I would, however, be against the concept of market caps, but for a different reason. That being that they could only ever be a short term relief. If you have a market cap, then the only way to increase profit is to decrease costs. A landlord would have no natural incentive to ever upgrade or improve a property for a tenant.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922313#Comment_117922313

People should work and aspire to own a home.

If they don't have to and its given to them then we might aswell all pack in our jobs and stay at home.

By the way, shelter is a human right, not housing.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922982#Comment_117922982

People do. But if you live in Dublin and pay nearly €1800 a month on rent, how are you supposed to also save for a deposit?

Has the cost to a landlord of renting a house out gone up by the levels of the rent increases of the past few years? I can't imagine it has, mortgage repayments won't have anyway...

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922955#Comment_117922955

Do landlords bring housing to the market?

I suppose it could be argued large institutional landlords (nearly universally seen as the Bad Guys) do by financing new apartment developments or pre-purchasing them from developers.

But small landlords (generally seen as the Good Guys being screwed by the government, at least on this forum) have no impact on supply surely?

I suppose it could be argued if being a landlord was very attractive that would add demand and maybe additional supply but we have had loads of demand from FTBs for a good few years now and very little additional supply.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923136#Comment_117923136

Small landlords are, in general, merely rent seekers (the economic meaning of the term).

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058209890/varadkar-hits-the-right-note-for-landlords

Varadkar is playing up to a portion of FG's base, the same way we would expect Mary Lou to say there should be an indefinite rent freeze which would appeal SF's base.

The fact that he's not going further (eg suggesting removing RPZs) suggests he reckons the current deal is as good as would be politically possible to achieve for landlords in the circumstances.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923136#Comment_117923136

They are surely removing housing from the market (rentals that is. Obviously people are buying the ex-rentals).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923136#Comment_117923136

Who can you rent from if there are no landlords.

Landlords supply rental properties to the private market. Govt should supply social housing, and affordable housing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922774#Comment_117922774

You've made yourself look exceptionally stupid with those few words.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923345#Comment_117923345

I already have a house. But I'm interested in investing some money.

You need a house because you have nowhere to live and don't own one.

There is one house for sale. Just us two bidding. I outbid you and proceed to rent the house to you.

Aren't you the lucky person in that scenario that you have me to rent it from? Because if I hadn't bought it out from under you, you wouldn't be able to rent it from me 🤔

growleaves

Right well look at what Leo is saying in response to a three year tent freeze: it's someone's income.

Would a normal person be unable to go without a pay raise for three years - after massive pay raises in previous years which outpace inflation?

Lessen the tax burden for small landlords, and make it possible to evict troublesome/non-paying tenants if you're worried about their livelihoods.

Donald Trump

There is no "tax burden for small landlords".

They pay the same tax as everyone else. They pay tax on their income.

A non-landlord cannot write off payments into a regular investment plan against their income and then receive a tax free disbursement at the end. Why do amateur landlords think they should be allowed to? I see it here all the time.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923345#Comment_117923345

There would be no option to rent privately if there were no landlords and that would create problems of its own.

It doesn't change the fact that individual small private landlords, in general, don't add to the overall housing supply.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922794#Comment_117922794

Right but the SF policy is ALSO going to keep rents high. A rent freeze will not lower rents, will it? It will keep rents where they are - high.

Are landlords actually looking for a policy which will keep rents continually bouncing proportionally higher than wages and inflation generally?

(edit)

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923784#Comment_117923784

Fair enough. I'm not an LL, I rent.

They seem to use the excuse of having to pay tax to continually raise rents.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923909#Comment_117923909

That is because they want the rent to be high enough so that, after tax, it covers the mortgage and expenses.

Consider the analogy of a coupon-paying bond that matures in 20 years. It costs 1m to buy today and it pays an inflation-adjusted equivalent of 1m upon maturity. I am an investor and I can borrow to buy that bond today. It would be ridiculous of me to expect that the bond should pay a coupon large enough so that, after tax, the coupon is large enough to repay the loan in full over the lifetime of the bond.

But that is analogous to what many amateur landlords appear to expect to happen in the case buying a house.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923909#Comment_117923909

Im not a landlord, though i did spend a couple of years investigating getting into it and decided that I wouldnt.

One of the main reasons is that I would have been paying a loan over many years and getting taxed at over 50% on the profit.

So (not my exact figures, im totally making these ones up) you would be paying about €14000 of which 9000 was interest, so about €5000 profit.

For ease, we can assume no other expenses (but of course there would be, like advertising, repairs, property tax, RTB etc).

So Im shelling out €14000 and paying over €2000 tax.

So that €16000+ going out and about €14000 in rent coming in.

After 30 years I would own it outright though. Thats a very long way away with the goal posts moving with new legislation yearly.

But anything can, and has been happening with new legislation and then you have the fact that paying rent in Ireland is now basically optional if you have a big enough neck.

I know people who havent received a penny in rent for over 3 years now. And i doubt they will be getting their property back anytime soon. And god knows what damage they will end up having to pay to fix when they get it back too.

Is that an investment that anyone could get behind. I think not.

Shelflife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923704#Comment_117923704

Some truth to your argument there.

I give you a different senario.

I already have a house, but im interested in investing some money.

You need a house because you have nowhere to live and dont own one.

There is one house for sale but you cant afford to buy it.

I buy it and rent it to you.

growleaves

Well a lot of people can't afford to become profitable jewellers or moneylenders either. If you need to borrow heavily to get a start it's a bad idea imo. It was a Celtic Tiger con that anyone could make easy money as an LL.

If you only have one or two properties and thin margins a bad tenant will sink you financially.

Is it possible to sell the debt for unpaid rent to a private debt collector? That is what I would prefer to do in that situation, if it's allowed.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924254#Comment_117924254

Given typical current circumstances, how much less than my mortgage payment - were I to get one for the purchase price; or in the alternative, how much less than your mortgage repayment - were you to get one to purchase the property. would you expect the rent to be?

You see, your argument could be that I only want to live in a location temporarily. That is a valid argument on why I might want to choose to rent.

But under current economic circumstances, to imply that the rent I would pay would be less than a mortgage repayment, is not a credible argument

Edit to add. Either way, you buying the house does not add to the supply of houses overall. Which is an important factor given that there is an overall critical shortage for both rental and purchase. You may have increased the number of houses available for rent by outbidding a potential owner occupier, but at the expense of removing one from the availabitity for purchase. Had we a surplus in that market, there would be no issue. But we don't have that at the minute.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924295#Comment_117924295

There is no way to sell the debt arising from unpaid rent. The cost of pursuing the debt (assuming you can even find the defaulting tenant) is usually more than the benefit of chasing it. After the cost of bringing the tenant to court, you might get a judgement of a couple of Euro per week that could take years and years to repay. Why would any bank/fund/idiot buy something thats worth nothing.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923865#Comment_117923865

Yes.

Pussyhands

A bunch of landlords in this thread. Cop yourselves on lads, you're not the ones hard done by!

I heard some bint on the radio yesterday saying landlords are getting out of it. And they say this like it's a bad thing? What are they doing with it? Demolishing houses? Leaving them empty? No, they're selling them to first time buyers who are renting.

Leo has some neck. You can switch it around to basically mean one persons income is another person rent with the rates of rent in this country.

Landlords whinging would sicken your hole. "blah blah costs are gone up". You bought your house at a fixed price. If you bought your house 3 years ago for 300 thousand you have made a gain of around 35k+ so far just on capital appreciation. Your mortgage costs are actually getting lower because some companies entered with new products. Your rent has been going up 4% each year, that's over 12% in just 3 years! You're riding the tenants. And that's just those who bought 3 years ago who by the way I would have no pity for them if prices crashed after buying to let in an inflated market.

Don't get me started on the lads who bought 10 years ago. Peanuts mortgage, house price over double.

All you landlords can have your little circlejerk and cry about how you're the ones hard done by. You are leeches on society.

I see sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922774#Comment_117922774

Yes they do, through providing social welfare payments to people to buy food for people when they can't afford it.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923345#Comment_117923345

Landlords, the ones people are defending in this thread, do not supply housing. The housing is already there. If all those landlords woke up tomorrow and sold, they'd be filled by people currently renting anyways.

For every happy little tenant paying rent, there's another first time buyer paying 50% of their income on rent who can't buy.

So yes, if every landlord exited the market, we'd have a rental problem but the buyer problem would be massively reduced.

dudley72

No Landlords then no rental properties.

People are making landlords the enemy and they won't be happy till they are driven out of the market, what the answer then?

It more populist c**p from the opposition that haven't a clue how to run the country but just feed out buzz words to keep everyone happy. The main reason why Ireland rent is so high is because a huge amount of landlords got driven out of the market because of the regulations which will allows tenants to sit in house paying no rent and no wya to get them out.

casheltipp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924463#Comment_117924463

What a nasty use of language "I heard some bint on the radio", reported

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924502#Comment_117924502

Fair whiff of entitlement from your posts. You can't buy a house. It's somebody else's fault, they shouldn't be allowed buy.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923744#Comment_117923744

The tax burden isn't the issue, paying tax is a sign of profit , its all about the grossly disproportionate rights in favour of tenants

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924508#Comment_117924508

SF are putting a halt to continual rent increases which outrun all other costs (including wages). Most renters are wary of an even worse gouge economy developing so a rent freeze is a slam dunk.

I would weaken the rights of non-paying tenants, they should be flushed out quickly and I sympathise with LLs here.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924508#Comment_117924508

I don't see how that makes the problem of today any worse?

We have a shortage of properties for sale. Landlords selling would mean more properties for sale, that's a good thing.

Yes, then there'd be a bigger rental problem, but the buying problem would be smaller.

It's like a sliding scale with landlords and buyers. If you had 100 houses on the market and they were all bought by landlords to rent, you'd have more rental supply but those buying would have 0 chance.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924544#Comment_117924544

I could buy if I wanted, have 130k in cash and stocks right at this moment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924605#Comment_117924605

Fair play. I bet Mammy is proud

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924698#Comment_117924698

Yep.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924598#Comment_117924598

You do realise we have nearly 16k properties for sale today. We have a location problem, not a supply problem

The rental issue are for people who cannot afford to buy houses, also we should be moving to a model like every other country in the World with long term rentals, not drive rentals out of the market.