Varadkar hits the right note for Landlords

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928220#Comment_117928220

I'll let you in on a little secret. If you pay up front, as you are now appearing to say, then you won't be paying back a mortgage.

Or are you counting it twice? C'mon, this is very basic

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926365#Comment_117926365

As a non property owner it looks all rosy for you. That why you are renting !

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928296#Comment_117928296

So you would also agree with my absurd thesis from above that extrapolating that, it would be a solution to the housing crisis if nobody was allowed to live in their own house?

JimmyVik

Jesus Donald, you are acting just like your namesake. You have a very narrow view of things and anybody who doesnt agree with you must be wrong. But carry on ....

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928215#Comment_117928215

There is a scarcity of housing due to current policies. It is quite simple. Developers are allowed to sit on landbanks for as long as they want, without penalty.

It can be difficult to open up new areas for rezoning, and even when rezoned, nuisance interference by "nimbys", and by elected representatives, can drag out the process for years.

Government rules and regulations also inhibit the supply of houses.

There are small landlords on here. What percentage of those do you think bought an already existing house? And booking off the plans is included in that because even in that scenario, they don't hand over all the money for the house until they receive it. They are not increasing supply.

Years ago, we had a situation where there was a strict limit on taxi licences. There was a fixed number. If an individual went and decided to buy a taxi licence in order to rent it out as an investment, they were not increasing supply. When you buy your house, you are not increasing supply, you are only replacing ownership of that house. You may be transferring from the owner-occupier market to the rental market if you outbid or buy from an owner-occupier, but that is irrelevant in the current context of critical shortages in both.

We are unfortunately in a de-facto similar situation of effectively fixed numbers of "licences" (houses) due to current government policies and rules. Who owns them does not affect supply

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928418#Comment_117928418

I'm just being right. 😉

Quin_Dub

What question are we trying to answer here?

The right to somewhere to live or the right to own the place you live in?

Fully agree with the former , fundamentally disagree with the latter.

Landlords are not the reason people can't buy houses nor are they the reason people cant rent houses.

Rent caps , Restrictions on Evictions etc. etc. won't suddenly make it easier to rent or buy . At best it'll make no difference it's more likely they'll make it worse.

If Landlords can't cover their costs , they'll exit the rental market - That doesn't make more houses available - It just kicks out a renter and replaces them with a home owner and you still have somebody without a home.

If Landlords can't evict someone for not paying rent or whatever , the same thing happens , only it takes much longer and nobody gets anything.

Want to lower the cost of Rents and House purchases?

Make more of them available in more places - Shifting a static supply of properties from rental to ownership and back again doesn't do anything for anyone in terms of solving the fundamental issue - Which isn't cost , it's availability , because the more availability the lower the cost.

Basic supply and demand stuff.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928448#Comment_117928448

Many of the properties would not have been built at all if small investors hadn't been willing to but them. In particular the S.23 apartment blocks which were erected in central Dublin between 1985 and 2005. Owner occupiers use more space than renters so squeezing out small investors in favour of owner ocupiers diminishes the supply of accommodation. This is not the only factor influencing supply, it is a contributor. The major factors are the inability of smaller developers to fund speculative building and the limitations on finance to buy to let investors and unwillingness of investors to purchase property for letting.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928619#Comment_117928619

So you also agree with my absurd thesis from above.

i.e. if living in a property that you owned was made illegal (you could own as many properties as you like, you just couldn't live in one you owned yourself), then that would solve the housing crisis?

It is curious that you mention financing of developments but don't seem to understand that a model with many small landlords is not conducive to financing developments. Were you and 100 of your buddies willing to draw down your mortgages in advance and hand that over to a developer to get a project off the ground, then you would be financing development. But the chances of you doing that are effectively zero. What the small landlord wants is the property which is already built before they hand over their money.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929584#Comment_117929584

Any agreement is purely on the stopped clock principle.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929584#Comment_117929584

There is an inherent risk when using reductio ad absurdum logic to support your point of view, as your namesake demonstrated repeatedly.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929660#Comment_117929660

A fair attempt at deflection. Not a good one.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929638#Comment_117929638

Well lets assume you currently live in your own house. If you instead rented out your own house, you might try to squeeze two families in (bring back the tenements m'lud).

Now when you have to rent the house across the road, your family unit will now be apparently content and happy to share the hosue with another family unit. Because you are renting. If you were living in your own house you would demand not to share.

Everyone would be happy ... or so your argument goes. You will also be rightfully thankful to your new landlord for providing you with your housing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929684#Comment_117929684

Risk realised.

Sultan_of_Ping

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928296#Comment_117928296

Pretty much our experience as almost ex-landlords!

We were renting a 4 bed house to 3 couples (basically 2 sisters, their partners and a couple who were friends of one of the sisters).

Unfortunately, the tenants before them completely trashed the property and we used up all our "reserves" (and then some) to get it put back into a fit state before re-letting it. This was second time the house had been trashed over the years and even though the current tenants (and every other set of tenants, those two excepted) have been brilliant we found the anxiety associated with being landlords and worrying about looking after a property without the cushion of a reserve to be really worth it - even before you factor in the general rhetoric around demonising landlords.

Considering that, and the state of the market, it just makes sense (for us) to exit the rental market as a supplier - so we're adding to the supply of property available for purchase but creating extra demand in the rental market.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924605#Comment_117924605

Is that you Eoin O Broin, because if it not, it's the same sort of s*it he spouts. I rent blaa blaa, I'm sure he could buy something on his salary, but hold on a minute that wouldn't suit my image being a homeowner, but fools swallow his populist nonsense.

jimmycrackcorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927730#Comment_117927730

Institutional landlords are pretty much standard across the rest of Europe which have far better long-term rental models.

But then those parties also oppose water charges which are also something pretty much standard there.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922313#Comment_117922313

Really? Can I have your house then?

rightmove

I had the painful experience of switching on newstalk the other evening and someone from the Labour party talking about getting the 'balance' right whilst proposing the new bill for more tenants rights and ignoring the fact that LL were getting nothing it in, dispite the use of the word balance. She then used the word 'eviction' many times instead of notice to vacate since there is a difference. She blabbered on about the research showing this and that (all pro tenant) and then finally when the host asked about LL exiting the market she mentioned that there was no research on this area and by her tone she didnt want any either. 

So at this stage I was shouting at the radio about not wanting to discuss the actual reason LL are leaving. she then replied it must be house prices, ignoring the fact that LL's having been quitting for years now. Finally the host thanked Ivana Bacik and it all made sense .......

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932352#Comment_117932352

Most of the parties are coming out with the same rubbish. It populist politics. Tell people what they want to hear to get votes but in reality it will be an absolute disaster if they continue down this track. Now I think the political parties are aware of this, if they are not then they are very very silly people

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932405#Comment_117932405

The political parties really are a bunch of spanners. Its echo chamber stuff where virtue trumps logic and renters suffer the most by the LL being pushed out.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932617#Comment_117932617

Look at the reaction on here when a TD comes out and says we need to consider LL?

Political parties are feeding the public, if people actually believe the best result is to have no LL then they should quit complaining about no rental properties. You can't have one without the other.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932617#Comment_117932617

I have no issue believing that certain people in government are buffoons who simply don't comprehend what they are doing. Others, I would opine do no care.

Then we have someone like Varadkar. I do not see a spanner when I look at him. Rather, I see a very intelligent man who knows precisely what he is doing, and it is his ilk that I fear are ruling the roost.

We often accuse the state of incompetence because we look at what its operatives do, and ask ourselves how they can be so myopic in their actions as to not see the harm that they cause. If the state were in the business of protecting the interests of the Irish people, this would be true. If, however, those who run the state have motivations removed from the public interest, then their actions seem less like incompetence.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932848#Comment_117932848

I met Varadkar many times and knew his father. He is far from a buffoon.

The problem a lot of people seem to forget is that people in Ireland will do nothing without money involved, some voters think that companies should be rolling around Ireland working and making no money so they can live the life of luxury. It doesn't work that way.

Everyone has to make a living and a profit. If the plan of some parties is to push LL do make zero profit then they will find no landlords in Ireland, simple as that. Which will have a huge impact on companies like google etc who bring in people on contract for a few years and then they move on. Someone doesn't want to buy a house in Ireland if they only plan on staying for 2-3 years.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933049#Comment_117933049

Oh don't misunderstand me; I'm no bearded lefty. I'm not criticising what Varadkar is saying in this instance as I have no issue with landlords. In fact, I have rented privately from a few small landlords who were ethical and honest men. There is nothing at all wrong with making a profit.

I wasn't referring to Varadkar as a buffoon at all. As I said, he's not a foolish man at all, but what are his motivations? Mostly likely, it's simply his own political ambitions, but the office that he will soon hold again should be an office dedicated to what in the interest of the Irish people. When I say that, I do not mean "free stuff" or "tax the rich". Rather, I mean that the goal of any ethical government should be what is in the interests of the tax-paying, private citizen and the inheritance of future generations. The best way to do that, would opine, is to maintain a society that rewards hard-work, wise decisions and personal responsibility.

The current governance of the Irish state (and of many western states) seems to me to be hell-bent on establishing Ireland as yet one more cog in a neo-liberal / globalist economic unit where the population are merely wealth-generating assets. I won't pretend to have all the answers, but this is just how things seem to me.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933049#Comment_117933049

Basically no one is saying landlords should make zero profit though?

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933377#Comment_117933377

I agree with you, I don't have all the answers either but I do think a lot of the rubbish at the moment from the opposition is populist nonsense which if implemented would cripple the country. Some people, not saying you, just want to hear what they want without thinking of what the consequences are.

Its like the ghost estate a few years back, everyone shouting to knock them down. I always thought that was idiotic but the people wanted it. Now we are crying out for houses after we knocked loads. Really it is baffling. Maybe the government should have know better but for a lot of them it is a popularity contest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117922774#Comment_117922774

No but we don’t let people starve. Stupid argument.

dudley72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933455#Comment_117933455

Really? I think you should read around the web because at the moment every LL in Ireland is a sc*mbag and the lowest of the low. We are supposed to believe a bad tenant does not exist

dulpit

I think what people have a problem with is increasing rent annually linked to inflation, when the original cost of the house (mortgage) won't be increasing at the same rate. It's profiteering.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934122#Comment_117934122

If you are renting out a luxury property worth 1m why can't you profiteer.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934041#Comment_117934041

If you read around the web you'll find people saying everything imaginable. The fact is that no one in mainstream politics is saying landlords should make zero profit and as the title of this thread suggests we have the Tanaiste (who holds more sway in government than any other Tanaiste before him) explicitly saying the opposite.

I get that everyone feels hard done by but landlords on this forum take that to a new level.

DubCount

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934122#Comment_117934122

People have a problem with 2 identical properties with vastly different rent caps, simply because of an accident of history. If 2 identical properties go up for rent at €2k per month and €1k per month respectively (due to rent caps), how is the LL of the €1k property profiteering by applying an inflationary increase?

handlemaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934122#Comment_117934122

Its funny. The arguments jump from the landlord is a business he/she can suck it up when a tenant doesn't pay. But when its pricing increases the landlord is a charity.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933461#Comment_117933461

I think that nobody can ever have the solutions to problems such as a housing crisis. However, there are quite a lot who will claim to have it, and some of them have drunk their own kool-aid. It is the latter that I fear the most.

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that it is virtually impossible to even have a discussion on it. Look at what gets said on this very forum. "That's a stupid argument", "You don't know what you're on about" or other such vituperative language serves no end other than to create a row and stall progress. Furthermore, there are too many proscribed topics such as immigration or welfare, and those who attempt to raise these very salient issues are often dismissed at best or outright hunted by twitter mobs at the worst, no matter how well made their arguments may be. How can any problem be solved if cannot even be candidly discussed?

I'm probably more cynical than the average soul, but I see little about the future that gives me warm and fuzzy feelings about the lives that my nieces and nephews will be growing up to "enjoy".

Sultan_of_Ping

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934122#Comment_117934122

Mortgage aside, don't all the other costs associated with owning, renting out and managing a property also increase as inflation goes up? A lot of trades people, builders etc are whacking up their rates far in excess of inflation - should landlords just absorb those costs?

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947341#Comment_117947341

Rents have increased 100 per cent in some cases in the last ten years.

Any inflationary costs are have been well covered over the medium term.

agoodpunt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947467#Comment_117947467

That ten year point well trotted out here was the lowest point for rents since 06 and taxes where lash on now amounting to more than 50%.

Trades since pandemic have increased 30% + if you can get them

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117947568#Comment_117947568

Fair enough, it's a comparison to the low point of the market.

My point is rents have outstripped inflation by a huge margin over the course of many renters adult lives.

That rents should now be allowed increase by more than the CPI to cover landlords in the event they have to pay for a tradesperson isn't a valid argument in my view.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948245#Comment_117948245

It is not just trades it's also regulation. You now have to certify the electrical connection in the house every 5 years, it now a 500-1k cost depending on 2-4 bed property. In a he next 12-18 months I expect that a media licience will be imposed on houses it will cost 150-200/ year. I expect that bin will be.imposed on LL as well. Other costs will increase as well. Redecorating in the case if tenant misbehaviour could now be 5k plus plus.

The problem is all these price freezes punish LL who are not price gouging but they then are encouraged to increase rental costs as fast as possible

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948429#Comment_117948429

Yes I agree that "fair" landlords have been hard done by.

But at a time of record high rents, the idea that landlords need increases above the rate of inflation is predominately (entirely?) one floated by landlords looking to justify their own interests.

And look I mean that's understandable, everyone wants to further their own interests, it's how politics works.

I feel almost obliged to disagree with people on here trying to justify these ideas as somehow being common sense and almost in societies best interests as a whole.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949101#Comment_117949101

I knew a landlord with an apartment next door to another rented one. Identical in every other way except one of them was in rag order and the other was in fantastic condition. The rent was locked at less than €1000 for one and is €1600 for the other one. Guess which one was locked on the lower rent? The nicer one.

I think he had a reason to feel hard done by.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949101#Comment_117949101

No one is saying that anyone neds increases per se. people are entitled to charge market rent as a general rule for any product or service. The complaint is made that rather than increasing supply to match demand and keep rents at an appropriate level, the methods used are choking off supply, locking some rents at an arbitrarily low level and allowing other rents to be higher than the would otherwise be.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949101#Comment_117949101

For the LLs, its not politics its economics.

What political is the Govt failure to deliver housing. They've abdicated responsibility. No ones voted them out.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949459#Comment_117949459

For the landlords it's self-interest and I don't mean that in a whingeing "landlords are selfish and mean" way. Simply that they are advocating policies which would suit them financially.

Everyone does it - from retailers, to the hospitality industry, to the construction industry.

But let's not pretend what's best for landlords (or any other interest group) is best for society or Just Common Sense.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949293#Comment_117949293

That's a valid point and certainly a lot of truth in it.

But the post I originally replied to was arguing LLs needed increases above the rate of inflation to compensate them for the additional cost of hiring a tradesperson which is just the usual type of landlord whinging which is unfortunately very common on here.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949221#Comment_117949221

Yes I absolutely agree some landlords have been hard done by and the nature of RPZs is that generally the LLs who lost out are/were the decent ones.

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949601#Comment_117949601

Is it common sense to push all the small LL's out of the market. All the regulations and below market rent catches look great for a tenant until they find out later they have no where to rent if they have to move. Occupancy rates are much higher in rented accommodation...the government created this crisis

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949649#Comment_117949649

Well I do agree that the Government shoulders the bulk of the responsibility and they have at times tried to scapegoat private landlords.

Having said that, the government's inaction has driven rents to historic highs which is very much beneficial to private landlords so swings and roundabouts I suppose.

jim o doom

Most of the comments I've seen seem to be focusing entirely on private property owners, and how the rent is their income. Reasonably fair thing to be talking about.

What do people think of the REIT situation in Ireland, the fact that giant US / International investment funds are buying and renting out huge swathes of housing, and that those companies are getting specific tax breaks here in Ireland to attract them.

There is a TON of Irish money going to foreign millionaires / billionaires who have invested in these funds. I would say the tax breaks for those sorts of entities, and the prevalence of their property ownership in the market is likely one of the primary causes of the current rental crisis.

These tax breaks were intentionally put in place by Irish politicians who live in the pockets of these giant multinationals. They aren't trying to protect normal people who are landlords, they're trying to protect these giant entities.

Almost no party, Sinn fein included, had anything good to say about the recent developments in Berlin surrounding companies involved in the rental market there. Reason being? that's who they're trying to protect right now.