Varadkar hits the right note for Landlords

jim o doom

Most of the comments I've seen seem to be focusing entirely on private property owners, and how the rent is their income. Reasonably fair thing to be talking about.

What do people think of the REIT situation in Ireland, the fact that giant US / International investment funds are buying and renting out huge swathes of housing, and that those companies are getting specific tax breaks here in Ireland to attract them.

There is a TON of Irish money going to foreign millionaires / billionaires who have invested in these funds. I would say the tax breaks for those sorts of entities, and the prevalence of their property ownership in the market is likely one of the primary causes of the current rental crisis.

These tax breaks were intentionally put in place by Irish politicians who live in the pockets of these giant multinationals. They aren't trying to protect normal people who are landlords, they're trying to protect these giant entities.

Almost no party, Sinn fein included, had anything good to say about the recent developments in Berlin surrounding companies involved in the rental market there. Reason being? that's who they're trying to protect right now.

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949672#Comment_117949672

disagree with you here. If it was swings and roundabouts we would see ppl and small LL entering the rental market. If rents are so high why are ppl getting out of the market. talking to someone at the weekend who has a great tenant who she really likes and she is selling up. Why..... because they feel the anti LL stuff is only getting worse and they wont be able to sell in the future. Its more swings and swings than swings and roundabouts.

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950158#Comment_117950158

I think what's often overlooked here is that many landlords who have exited the rental market in the last few years were "accidental" landlords or bought an investment property under false pretences during the Celtic Tiger.

Given the current high rents, the question must be asked - at what level of income would remaining in the rental market become attractive to this type of landlord?

This type of landlord needs being a landlord to be almost risk free (I don't blame them - I would too, but I'm not cut out for being a landlord). Making it risk free would keep them in the market and no doubt encourage more to enter, but it's simply not a viable policy.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950320#Comment_117950320

Accidental landlords don't need to be kept in the market. The people in it should be investors who are rational about it. Many TDs are selling of their property investments because it is not worth the hassle. The issue at the moment is that buy to let investors are not coming into the market in sufficient numbers.

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950677#Comment_117950677

Are accidental landlords irrational?

rightmove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950677#Comment_117950677

The houses provides by accidental LL's are as good as those non accidental LL's and the same goes for the tenants. Many ppl ended up as LL in previous generations but didnt run for the door without being replaced. Its the measure over the last 5 years that caused this.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117949649#Comment_117949649

Makes no difference if its small Landlord or large institutional Landlords, REITs etc. They aren't causing the shortage or thus the rent increases.

Though I suspect the Large LL focus on the top end, the most profitable part of the market. As you lose small LL I think its driving out cheaper places, but also new property are restricted to what rent they can set.

Berlin already moved to large LL's and it didn't help.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/berlin-voters-back-campaign-to-divest-landlords-of-up-to-240-000-apartments-1.4684996

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951214#Comment_117951214

Over the years ive always known a quite a few people every year who buy buy to lets. Always more than those who were getting out.

The last 5 years or so, everyone i know who ever bought a buy to let has got out and the remaining 2 in the process of getting out.

Its been a fair few years now since ive met anyone who actually wants to get into property investment.

You see the odd post on boards about someone wanting to get into it, but its clear they are on day 1 of their research into it.

I dont think any have followed through.

batman75

The Government for decades have effectively abandoned providing its citizens with housing. They have been happy to let the private sector supply the market. The problem is that it is not sufficiently meeting market demands thus resigning some people to a lifetime of renting.

Will the ability to work from home which technology can permit help ease price pressures in some locations?

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117923345#Comment_117923345

There won't be no landlords, just a change in their composition. Government can get involved more directly if they like as seen in other countries, though either way larger companies would simply take up the space left by small landlords. Obviously it will vary from oen to the next, but in my experience, they actually tend to be far better to rent from.

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925603#Comment_117925603

As a renter I would FAR prefer unfurnished, which is the norm in Canada where I split time. You move in and there is literally nothing but counter tops and appliances. This would seem to me to suit landlords for cost reasons (and can make the place look nicer/more spacious when advertising), but it also means I can put all of my own stuff in there, and get the place looking and feeling exactly how I like and thus feeling like an actual home, rather than a thrown together mush mash of old furniture in either like nor warm but cannot remove.

Adds a little to the first time of renting, though lots of people throw stuff out the front garden at the start of the month, so we were able to get makeshift stuff in immediately for free/as-good-as, and then buy stuff we actually wanted over the next few months.

You are also allowed to paint the place whatever colour you like, but have to a) pay for any damages from spilled paint etc and b) pay for the cost of the replacement paint (though not the labour) when moving out.

That to me is a huge difference in re ting in Dublin - beyond being arguably the most expensive city in the world to rent in outside of San Francisco, it just never, ever feels like your own home and living space.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952725#Comment_117952725

The deliberately outsourced it to the private market. As a cost cutting measure.

There's a nuance to that, which is missing in these arguments. If you privatize something like a bus route they will cut the lost making routes and keep the once that generate the most profit. This is why Apple doesn't do cheap iPhones. Not enough profit in it.

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948429#Comment_117948429

To be fair, the only actual increase you listed there is the ele trial connection, which would work out to about €8-16 a month.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952936#Comment_117952936

The Govt, large companies, and small LLs are all landlords. The issue isn't Landlords or the composition.

Its that its been privatized, and supply doesn't meet demand. We are fueling demand with immigrations and returning emigrants, economy etc.

We keep copying Berlin how things its done and none of it worked there, and it won't work here either. They are finally going to get the Govt to buy back apartments from the private market, in this case large landlords.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117952936#Comment_117952936

Institutions have no interest in buying property outside the main cities

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953460#Comment_117953460

We lease them back.

No way will we be buying them back at this point. Too expensive.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950850#Comment_117950850

They made the decision to become landlords due to the pressure of circumstances, not on the basis of a rational decision freely made.

Carfacemandog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953460#Comment_117953460

Absolutely, supy Isa huge issue and government (and your and my taxes) should be put towards this. It's a massive societal issue, and will only continue to get worse unless addressed. Yet sadly, it just doesn't seem as if the interest to do so is there at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117953809#Comment_117953809

Do you not realise that accidental landlords come in all shapes and sizes?

What about the person who bought in the height of the Celtic tiger years only to lose their job a year or so into their mortgage. Within months their property is in negative equity. Some more time passes by and they restructure their mortgage.

A good few years down the line they start to get back to some normality. They fall in love with somebody who bought a house then lost their job in much the same circumstances as them. They eventually move in together and start a family but because the other house is still in negative equity, the decide to rent it out.

All is going grand then overnight rule change after overnight rule change has them wanting to get out. The perfect tenant becomes the perfect nightmare and it all gets too much to try and keep up with. As soon as they can at least clear the mortgage they’re out!

That’s not me btw but it’s definitely people I know who were in the 20s in the latter part of the Celtic tiger years. I’m sure there’s hundreds of others who are similar to above with maybe a bit of tweaking.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954308#Comment_117954308

My point is those people should get out their loss is not to be regretted. The problem is that they are not being replaced by other investors who can make a reasoned decision to begin or expand a portfolio.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117950677#Comment_117950677

And a good indication of the buy to let the market is plain to see today with the Bidx1 auction, most of the properties not sold today have sitting tenants, a few years ago they would be snapped up before vacant properties.

Sultan_of_Ping

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117948245#Comment_117948245

It may not be a valid view, but it's the way the world works.

Building, repair and maintenance costs have accelerated, meaning it's more difficult to get tradespeople and much more difficult to build up a reserve. Should prudent, responsible landlords be penalised? Because limiting rent is the surest way to make sure that maintenance etc gets done on the cheap, occupancy is maximised and properties are let and managed in a way that minimally meets the requirements fitness requirements.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954331#Comment_117954331

I get ya now.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928399#Comment_117928399

HA HA

I have a relative who's a landlord and he's filthy rich! I know exactly how easy being a landlord is. Easy easy money.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954308#Comment_117954308

You buy a house and the value goes down? Tough ****. The value of your investment may go up or down.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954776#Comment_117954776

Easy to tell that the events of 2008 had no effect on your life.

Jmc25

If the government got involved and built social houses that would relieve the dependence on private landlords and rent control could be removed, and perhaps even regulations could be loosened. But you'd expect rents to fall on the back of less demand for private rented accomodation.

So it's a bit of a double edged sword for landlords is it not? In the current situation rents are controlled and bad tenants are by and large protected, but rents are high.

An honest question to the landlords on here - is that situation preferable? Because if so, tenants and landlords can probably be on the same side for a change!

Dav010

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954757#Comment_117954757

It would be silly of you not to invest, your relative has shown you the path to riches.

MBE220d

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954857#Comment_117954857

I'll give you an example of the s*it that has happened over the last couple of years.

There used to be a scheme about 10 years ago call RAS, now with RAS the council rented your property on a 4 or 5 years lease, for this lease you were paid 20% below market rent for the area in exchange for guaranteed rent, a good deal for both tenant and landlord, the tenant knew where the stood and the landlord didn't have to worried about the rent not being paid. It also saved the taxpayer 20%.

Roll on a few years and the councils owed millions from tenants not paying them their share some bright spark comes up the HAP scheme, now with the HAP scheme if the tenant stopped paying the council their share, the council stops paying the landlord, great, that's the landlord's problem now and then wipe their hands of it.

So now you have landlords that won't take HAP tenants, so whose fault is that, the landlord gets the blame anyway because it popular with everyone nowadays.

And the above is just one example,

Jmc25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117954987#Comment_117954987

Thats unsurprising as it's how the state operates in many areas. I'm all for the state taking actual responsibility for fixing the problem and just directly housing people on such payments in social housing (and dealing with the problems being their landlord entails).

But that would remove a lot of people from the private market and reduce rents. Private tenants not in receipt of supports would benefit from that and private landlords wouldn't have to deal with the risk, albeit with reduced rental income. Worth the hit in the pocket from their point of view?