Unauthorised Development Question

rn

Don't forget most retentions are granted. That development, despite enlarging the house probably did not go against any planning guidelines for the area. It was same sewer connection, there was no change of use. The extension probably was in similar style to existing houses.

Building a brand new house in the country generally brings more complications for retention. The councils are concerned orderly development to facilitate easier servicing of dwellings with power, water, sewage, waste, telecoms etc. There's a huge legacy issue with random ribbon development in Ireland and council planning policy is trying not to let it get worse. They're failing dismally, but they're certainly slowing it down. Local need, style of house and location of and types of septic tanks and waste water processing are large hurdles for the wannabe country mansion dweller needs to overcome.

It's a gamble going for retention. OP approach is do nothing, say nothing and I'll get away with it. He's hoping better odds for his new home not being demolished.

muffler

The OP has suddenly disappeared. 🚮

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670753#Comment_117670753

Still here, just more and more concerned 😬

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671583#Comment_117671583

Are you OK with driving your family and kids around uninsured for a few years?

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672008#Comment_117672008

It's a commercial Toyota Land Cruiser registered to ltd company, and the address is still a place of business (jeeps and vans kept there) so insurance isn't void? I understand a private policy would be void but I doubt this is the same.

Eldudeson

I can't see a car insurer looking for a planning number in the event of a claim. There's a house there and an eircode. Why would they look for planning permission?

rn

Ya, I think we've gone way beyond the knock on consequences of building without planning.

I actually can't see implications for taxman nor insurance, as long as OP states it's the home address.

It's solely the power of the county council that's in play here and the consequences for the building itself by having no planning.

Eldudeson

I'd imagine the CC resources for chasing building regulations without a complaint is non-existent. They're hardly scouring google maps and cross checking records.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673641#Comment_117673641

But that's the issue, he didn't state it is the home address for insurance.

I haven't done commercial insurance recently, but I thought that a question about where the vehicle is stored overnight was standard.

OP, were you asked about where the vehicle is stored overnight?

What about your partner's car? That's the problem with living in the middle of nowhere- every movement out of the house requires a car. What's the story with insurance of the other vehicle.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673792#Comment_117673792

You're probably right, but how sure could you be that no one will complain? No narky in law, no righteous workmate, no nosey teacher?

rn

Fair enough. But OP can declare it as his home for car insurance, regardless of planning. It's a legit address as far as car insurance is concerned. Lots and lots of people declare home as X but are ordinary resident somewhere else during the week.

Home insurance, however, would be a problem for a new build. Just in regards home insurance, I believe it brings a certain amount of public liability insurance. Without it means you've no cover should you have someone do something stupid. There's another thread on boards about someone who had a visitor who had an accident with a bbq and now wants to sue for damages. Look, granted it's another remote possibility of happening but yet again you playing with fire with no planning secured for your development.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675412#Comment_117675412

You really can't declare either way for car insurance. Their questions are fairly carefully phrased, something like 'where is the car normally kept at night'? If you put down your mammy's house where you visit once a month in response, you'll find it difficult to claim when your car is robbed from your Dublin house.

John_Rambo

I can't believe people do this. An amazing mix of balls of steel and pure self interest with a little bit of the finger to everyone else in the country that does it properly.

And by the way, millions of people work hard all their lives and expect kids at some stage of their lives. I don't know if this will end well for you but I reckon you'll be in the house for a couple of decades even if it's detected by the cc tomorrow. I guess if you're very wealthy the money is a pinch of salt and the risk is worth it. Maybe monster penalties will be introduced if super rich people start flouting planning permissions and just walk away.

rn

The penalties are established. It's just the system is slow. Eventually OP or OP estate will have to seek PP for the house. The ultimate outcome of that process is granted or denied. If denied, eventually OP or OP estate could have to knock the house at his expense. Failing that the council could put a charge on the site and go in and knock it at their expense.

First it has to be brought to attention of council, which OP is gambling won't happen deliberately.

Calhoun

I wonder if revenue will cop on to it and let it be known, i know our public sectors aren't usually connected in that way but big risk i would see is that if you aint paying property tax.

Op would also want to be on their best behavior all it takes is one disgruntled person and council knows about it.

Ubbquittious

Well feck it I hope the OP gets away with it and fair play to having a gamble. I'd welcome a large scale movement of non-compliance with the draconian planning laws the government introduced since '08 with the sole purpose of pushing up the price of housing in order to help out privately owned banks

The government have really screwed us all insisting we all pay 20+ years wages for a simple roof over our heads and then all these anti-rural housing policies and insisting we put in massively expensive heating systems.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676502#Comment_117676502

I think you'll find that it was the greedy developers and investors that have been responsible for the increased house prices.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676521#Comment_117676521

That is true too. All part of a concerted effort to bring the prices back up after the crash

user05238

Housing both rural and urban in this country is shocking expensive even in very low-end areas, thanks to the developers and investors. I understand why planning laws are required, but they aren't set up right, they're definitely needed but just need to be reformed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676485#Comment_117676485

I doubt it, construction costs are part of my company's industry and we went about this very very carefully. Yes, I dodge the tax where I can, but I don't skirt Corporation tax or even VAT, mainly just income tax, which is stupidly high to the point where I cannot stomach to pay it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117675412#Comment_117675412

My main problem was somebody with the ability to do so, running the plate on my jeep and it displaying the address of the new house.

Home insurance is a problem but I think the main issue would be something like an electrical fire or burst pipe (god forbid), but there isn't anything I can do about that and nothing I can do more to prevent those issues so there's no point in worrying.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674051#Comment_117674051

Yes, I believe it does ask for location overnight but I haven't checked it. Could be an issue but could also not be an issue. Same insurance company found out my brother had a different engine in an E36 after an accident but covered it regardless. (Although, they covered the liability, not his car)

My partner's car is a private car she has put her parent's address on. Might look into putting both addresses to the new house, but we aren't living there yet, we're still finishing it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673792#Comment_117673792

Seems to be the opposite of what somebody else said earlier on this thread, where they had maps that they overlay layers on, which seems like a good system in theory but likely only have that in Dublin Cork etc not out here. Dealing with Wicklow Co Co here, not exactly the most funded I'd imagine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673252#Comment_117673252

It's about having the address on anything that the County or whoever would be able to check. Looking at it now, might just move it over once we move in fully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676502#Comment_117676502

Thanks mate! Without trying to sound like a d*ck, the house cost in total was less than 3 years saving, still a lot of money but it wouldn't leave me on the street if I had to leave it. I don't know if a large-scale movement would either loosen or tighten things but I'd certainly be backing it. Seeing the EU case stalled makes me feel as though the government would sooner put a stop to rural development although before dropping local needs requirements. Counties that don't require it have the most beautiful home you'd ever see.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117674066#Comment_117674066

Haven't moved in yet and I don't plan on having many people up, just close friends and immediate family. I'm (sort of) young enough to the point where telling people I live with parents still isn't out of the blue.

Thanks to everybody on here for your help, definitely makes me feel a little bit better about my gamble if you would call that. My solicitor was against the idea of it and he explained about enforcement orders etc but I wanted to get some community feedback on it. Sure f*ck it, even if I'm made apply for retention, I'd say I have a good chance of it.

rn

To give you a "good" news story OP. There's a house up the road from mine that's up about 8 years, no PP. Owner occupier is very happy,in the house about 6 years, no bother from roscommon coco so far. It was the occupier granny house and her brothers completely renovated, modernised and built a large extension onto the house... All DIY in the family. The house sits together with a more modern bungalow that's the new "granny", mother & father of the no PP cottage. They're both on same site/garden.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676751#Comment_117676751

Seems like most county councils don't actually care and won't care until it becomes a serious issue, but isolated cases in the countryside don't seem to bother them. Although the "mansion" in Meath to be knocked does seem like the Meath co co saw the size of the house and figured they were going to make an example out of them. The people who built that really went over the top though, huge house with a massive sunroom and a 3 story garage, balcony to the front, and massive grand gates, it was only ever going to end badly. Feel as though they'd have gotten retention if they built something a bit more reasonable. To be fair, this country does have an issue with big ugly McMansions all lined up next to each other.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676502#Comment_117676502

Yeah, you would like to see people building whatever and wherever they like? Until your neighbour decided to build a massive block of apartments overlooking your house.

I lived in a country with no planning laws, no one wants that, trust me!

TheChizler

This thread makes me feel like a chump getting planning for my little ground floor extension, why would you bother.

listermint

It's grand sure the OP is leaving his family and kids to sort out the mess when he passes. Including all costs involved in restoring the land back to what it was.

It's all kind of genius really if you don't like your family.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676903#Comment_117676903

Because it's certain that a) I'll still have this when I pass, b) It'd be passed onto them, isn't it?

By then it'll probably either have planning permission or it'll be just a concrete foundation in a field. I believe that the unauthorized development only needs to be rectified for a sale, not an inheritance anyway. Wouldn't it just be them inheriting my land but it happens to have a structure on it? Different from other countries, here there's no ownership of a structure separate from the land under it (I am 95% sure but not certain).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676882#Comment_117676882

You're definitely right, we need planning laws, but they need to be reformed. Building a block of apartments looking over somebody's house is quite extreme, wouldn't you think? Personally, if I was living in a nice home with all the planning in order and somebody wanted to build something next to me without planning, provided it blended in nicely with the landscape, wasn't stupid looking, and didn't obstruct anything, I wouldn't have an issue at all. Well, that's the approach my neighbors took and how any rational person should look at things.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676885#Comment_117676885

Well, I wouldn't have gone to the trouble but it's the right thing to do so you should be able to find comfort in that :)

Once you allow people to build without planning, that's exactly what happens. Extremes.

BBM77

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058200518/unauthorised-development-question

“I didn't want to risk a refused planning application so the dwelling has been constructed without planning permission.”

It’s alright, your special, you can do what you want.

 

Had this kind of thing lately where I live. Neighbour built extension without planning permission, outside the property boundary, changing the appearance of a neighbouring estate in the process. The attitude of it!

Esel

Wicklow County Council ordering drones now.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058200518/unauthorised-development-question

if this is indeed legit, i really hope you get caught as this is the sort of bullshit attitude that we dont need in this county. yes, alot of the planning regulations are hard to deal with, but we have an over abundance of poorly-designed, once off isolated rural houses and just going ahead without permission when you were sure that you wouldnt have permission granted is ridiculous. 'I was going to build regardless of planning permission' - how unbelievably entitled of you. if everyone did that then we'd all be (even more) screwed.

RE: car insurance, you said it was a commercial vehicle registered to the company address - you shouldnt be using it as a family vehicle so

also, this '7 year rule' does not really exist as most people think it does (and i have many arguments with clients over this), it basically means the council cant issue legal proceedings against you and in most cases cant require the works to be taken down. however in your situation this may still not apply

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676502#Comment_117676502

you have very little understanding of how planning actually works

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677733#Comment_117677733

Building outside of a boundary in an estate is quite different from a well-integrated house in a very rural area, I would imagine.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677842#Comment_117677842

I'm not disagreeing, it is an entitled attitude to think your above build regs, but at the same time, it's about as well-integrated of a home into a landscape as you're really going to get. I'm aware that it remains an unauthorized development forever unless retention is granted, and then it's statute barred from enforcement, but that is of little concern, I'm happy as long as it isn't knocked.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117677737#Comment_117677737

😂 Honestly

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678012#Comment_117678012

i really hope you complied with building regs at least, i was talking about planning regulations and that process. if it is as well-integrated as you say then the chances are it would have been granted permission if you had made your case. i would also think that without any permission/retention your building will always be in danger of having an enforcement against it. the 7 year timeline has limitations (contravening planning conditions for example) and a flagrant disregard for the planning process may fall under an exception, especially when many councils are becoming harsher on any developments without planning (contributions for retention for example have increased/become much more common recently)

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678062#Comment_117678062

Yes, fully in with building regulations. It isn't a huge ugly box on top of a hill or something stupid, it's a well-thought-out traditional home that sits in a neat corner of a large enough site, garage appropriately sized (within allowable size for domestic use), and isn't an eyesore or anything of the sort.

My concern with the planning was not of the design, it was of the Local Needs. I qualify for Local Need but there were no sites available within the required distance from my family home, and there were no homes available for sale. It's not like there were some bungalows etc and I thought I was "above" a house like that - there were no houses for sale period.

As far as the "7-year rule" is concerned, the development isn't in breach of any conditions on other grants e.g. land sterilization. There haven't been any nearby planning applications in the last 10 years as it's quite a rural area, but there was a rejected application for a dormer house on this exact site in 2002, rejected due to lack of local need but no other reasons for the refusal (I believe).

If I am required to apply for retention, it technically is outside of the 4km distance from the family home so I may go to the Carlow County Council for retention. Their policy is they can review applications for sites within 3km of the county border (which it is) and then can do 8km from the family home, then only 800m out of bounds, as opposed to 4.8km. I certainly agree with proper planning to restrict development and I wouldn't have the cheek to straight-up build a house completely in violation of the rules (you can argue that breaking the rules is the same regardless I suppose) but a 4km from the family home rule is too much in my opinion. Went to every farmer and landowner around my parent's house, none were willing to sell even after offering eye-wateringly high amounts.

paddysdream

Seen this happen near me a few years ago.House built in the mid 1990's without any planning whatsoever .This was roadside on their own land .Very noticable as its a large 2 storey dwelling .

Had to apply for retention about 10 years ago .Got it in 2 months along with permission for extension .Just after looking at the decision on the council website and fairly straightforward .Actually a lot less conditions than any new houses in the area .Council planning fees were small enough .

Not too sure why they applied for retention but must ask them sometime .Do know they had a mortgage at one stage so perhaps needed planning when it finished up or maybe needed planning cert to borrow for extension .

Don't think ESB ,phone line ,broadband etc was ever an issue .Own well and septic tank so no public connection.

As regards insurance ,well not one farm building here was ever put in for planning. Has never been an issue with storm claim etc. Bit of a red herring .As for the motor insurance part think people are clutching at straws with this .

Councils are hard set to do much around here so the idea of them paying for drones is like the stories of helicopters being hired by councils to fly about looking for backyard burning .

marieholmfan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117676668#Comment_117676668

You've a 300 grand directors loan in the form of your house. If I was a betting woman I would say that you will get caught by Revenue but not by the council and also as long as your septic tank never has a problem you will be grand to keep the house.

I think you were mad not to apply for planning permission; because you would have certainly got it.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678143#Comment_117678143

Fair play to them. Going ahead without permission is a very tough pill to swallow, as your seeing your home being built you imagine it being knocked in a few years.

I don't have a phone line and I know for a fact the broadband and Sky won't bat an eye, but I'm genuinely surprised ESB didn't ask for planning permission. In the case of them refusing to install it to the house, I was going to get them to install a farm supply to the back of the property and then run a cable from that to the fuse box inside, for a 100amp supply, the same if you were putting in a 2nd fuse box in a garage or shed.

I think I'll wait the 7 years so they can't issue any enforcement orders and then apply for retention. Hopefully, the EU case will have gotten rid of the distance requirements by then.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678207#Comment_117678207

Less than that amount, but never the less I'll be making it right soon.

user05238

Does anybody on here know if councils can just bend the requirements a bit?

E.g. Must be 8km or less from the family home rule but the house is 8.8km away.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678139#Comment_117678139

my siblings and i couldnt build anywhere near our family home, so we sucked it up and moved elsewhere

if there were a genuine need for you to remain in the area then you could have made your case and most councils will allow be some be lenient in terms of distances. otherwise you are no different to everyone else and to continue and build a house just because you have the financial means (which seems suspect at best and also looks likely to cause trouble) screams sheer and utter ignorance.

and as i previously said, your house will mostly likely always be liable for enforcement, the 7 year statue would most likely not cover such a development and if such flagrant disregard to the process was brought to council's attention i imagine they would be doing their utmost to bring about such an enforcement.

phill106

This house was there 10 years, and ordered to be knocked...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/couple-given-one-year-to-demolish-house-built-without-permission-1.3089521

still at it

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/couple-in-legal-saga-over-house-built-without-planning-permission-agree-to-leave-in-2022-1.4363965

and still at it...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/couple-agree-to-leave-a-house-they-built-in-breach-of-planning-laws-in-two-years-time-39560707.html

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678946#Comment_117678946

That's the mansion I was talking about earlier. Seems as though an enforcement order was brought and they even managed to hold them off for 15 years.

Thoie

OP, there's a few different ways that it could come to their attention - some more likely than others.

1. Someone deliberately lodges a complaint - no matter how well you get on with the locals today, there's always one mad fella down the pub who wants to cause trouble for some perceived slight.
2. Someone accidentally brings it to the council's attention. E.g. Mary is refused planning because she doesn't meet local needs criteria, and says "but you granted it for JohnBoy across the road" and the council say "no we didn't" and start looking into things. In that scenario, Mary honestly assumes you got permission and is using you/your house as an argument as to why she should too.
3. Someone is doing some land registry/mapping work and is comparing satellite pics with planning maps, and notices your house has no corresponding reference number. They assume it's a mistake, go looking for the number, then realise it's an unauthorised development.
4. Census enumerator (usually local) notices that your house isn't on her list and flags this somewhere. Next census currently scheduled for April 2022.
5. A crack team of Planning Department commandos start parachuting into strange places and land on your roof. They may be accompanied by an array of drones.

You're taking a risk, but you know that. The main question to ask yourself is can you afford to eat a €300k loss and rehome yourself if it comes to it?

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679422#Comment_117679422

Thanks for your post. It's the well-thought-out and constructive posts like these that actually address my concerns, not grill me for things like driving a commercial jeep etc

Lodging of a complaint is definitely a possibility but I should be alright in that regard. Is it illegal to "bribe"/pay somebody to not make a report? I'd imagine it probably is but just asking. I spoke to the immediate neighbors about my plans etc and they were happy with it, and I won't be making it known to everybody around that I've built a house, much less that it's got no planning. (I know that they could still report after payment and I'd have no recourse but regardless)

I don't think that point 2 is of massive concern, a new planning application would be news around here as it's pretty dead and there hasn't been a single planning application nearby in over 10 years. Most of the houses around here are from the 1980s and 1990s. Hence why I'm trying to keep my house pretty well shielded from view, and it would be a pretty large home compared to the ones around it.

3 and 4 are also possibilities but there isn't anything I can do to help that so I'm not going to waste time worrying about it, but point 5 is probably the biggest concern, am going to be looking out for those pesky things 😂

As snobby as it may sound, I can eat the loss, but the problem isn't the money side of it, it's about where I would go if I can't live in the house. I'm not living there yet, still with parents, but with a wife and a child it just isn't working and I need to be around here for work. The sole reason I built the house was that there was no other place to live around here short of pitching a tent. I've tried every farmer around for land but most of the land is sterilized and the parts that aren't, they won't sell, even offering absolutely insane amounts of money for it. Made offers to buy out 3 different houses but also wouldn't sell despite offers well above market value. Got only 1 person willing to sell a piece of land, albeit at almost double what it would be worth to anybody else, was pretty certain I'd be able to build a bungalow with dormer windows to only the rear, and even then that was a longshot, one night looked it up on the planning permission map and the house next to it had a sterilization condition on it, lovely.

Deeec

Op I think if you had applied for planning permission you would have got it. Your just over 8km from your home place - thats very close. You seem to have lots of local links and you have a business locally. They would have given the planning to you for sure if you had the right architect and plans. Its a big shame you didnt apply.

Also when the child gets a little bigger how are you going to hide away - play dates at home and birthdays are a big part of kids lives. You cant live a life where noone can visit you - it will start to appear odd to people and will draw attention to you.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679734#Comment_117679734

My thought was that in 2 - 3 years' time once the house doesn't still look "brand new" it'll blend in enough to the point where 99% of people can come and go without issue, why would people ask about planning permission of all things? It's almost a given that in the years to come it'll become known to the locals, but I'm banking that's after the statute bar for enforcement kicks in.

I'm aware that there's a very good chance that a planning application would have been granted, but that's a double-edged sword, as they could very easily refuse on the basis that it's outside of the distance in the county development plan, which would be true, and then I'd have no recourse. It almost seems as though they'd be cutting me slack to grant it, and from what I've seen they take a very conservative approach to pretty much everything.

In the event of an enquiry of the council following a complaint or other discovery, I'll be submitting a retention application, which I believe if they can overlook the distance requirement, will be accepted. Although it's no small house, it's not a McMansion and it pretty much ticks all of the boxes of what I'd call a well-integrated design. Thanks for your constructive and helpful post, doesn't seem to be a given on here, this thread has turned into a dragged-out battle.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679775#Comment_117679775

I sincerely hope it does work out for you. From what you describe of the house it sounds its fits in the area.

Be careful though - its amazing how people ( even close to you ) can get jealous of houses. All it takes is for someone to look up your planning online and realise you have no planning and report you out of spite. I built my own house too ( full planning was received) - slightly smaller than yours - traditional stone built blends in well to surrounding area etc. Its shocking though the amount of jealous snipey comments I get because they preceive Im rich ( which Im not ) because we could afford to build our own home. Truth is it was alot cheaper at the time than buying a house half the size.

Best of luck user 05238

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679808#Comment_117679808

You're definitely right, people all over the world are jealous of material things but seems as though we Irish are particularly bad. The house actually ended up costing a lot less than I had imagined and I'm glad I didn't purchase a house like I was initially going to, as I'd have actually spent more on something on less land a fraction of the size. It's not a "No expense spared" home by any stretch but it has nice tiling and fittings and stonework to the front porch like yours. The number of comments not only do I get but almost everybody else around that drives anything nicer than a 2010 Passat. Used to drive a '13 320d which was a nice car but wasn't over the top fancy (this is in 2017), but a worrying amount of people passed remarks, now I just have the same jeep for personal and work and even then on an '18 Land Cruiser people are still passing remarks.

Thanks for your best wishes, definitely feels better than some of the previous posts here (which are valid opinions to be fair, but could've been worded differently and less personally)

sprucemoose

'is it illegal to "bribe"/pay somebody to not make a report?' - youre trolling now aren't you?

'I'm banking that's after the statute bar for enforcement kicks in' - its been explained to you repeatedly that this most likely wont apply in your situation

'it pretty much ticks all of the boxes of what I'd call a well-integrated design' - except youre not qualified to decide that so its not your decision to make, hence why people have to apply for planning permission (planners arent great at this usually either but thats a different rant)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678207#Comment_117678207

Do you think Revenue might talk to the Council?