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Unauthorised Development Question

user05238

Hi, using a burner account for this post for what I hope are obvious reasons.

I've constructed a 2 story dwelling in the southeast on a rural site, not visible from the road due to forestry, and my driveway opens to a private lane which I have right of way. Unable to find a site within the required 4km of the family home, I technically did not qualify for Local Need on the site I purchased, as it was 8.6km from the family home. I didn't want to risk a refused planning application so the dwelling has been constructed without planning permission. I'm aware that the "7-year rule" is not a catch-all and it will still be an unauthorized development in 7 years, but I do not see myself selling the property and I weighed my options before choosing to go ahead with this.

Neighbors are sound people and have no problem with the development, but my worry/question is whether the council has a right to come and inspect my property without my permission. My view is that they would be unable to detect it without being able to see it (It still cannot be seen even from the private lane), or without somebody reporting it. Do they have a right to inspect my property without my permission? My property has a large gate, hedges, and panel fencing and the only way to gain access to the property is through the electric gates.

In total, a 2-story 3700sqft dwelling with a ridge height of 8.2m, a 2-car garage, septic tank (with treatment system and percolation area), and 1.7m high brick entrance has been constructed.

Thanks in advance.

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Just on 7 year rule, I am aware of a bungalow that was developed without planning here in Roscommon near Athlone, that had to be knocked when the land was sold after the owner died. The sale didn't go through until all buildings were gone. However the foundations remain. The house had been standing for over 13 years with no action by council, despite complaints by neighbours of it being built illegally. 3 planning requests were turned down by council. And the land/site had at least 3 buyers and eventually sold at half its valuation... I'd say because development potential has been wrecked.

gogo

Similar case in Laois, large shed converted into a dwelling house, no expenses spared, it was beautiful, they were going on the basis that the shed had been in situ for many years and they would apply for retention after the fact….

the house is now a shed again with a lovely new layer of concrete blocks surrounding the entire shed, complete and utter waste of time and money on the owners behalf. It’s now an uglier shed than it was in the first place, all windows/internal modifications etc removed.

To rely on the seven year rule is crazy, even asking the above questions after building to me is crazy, it’s seems incredulous that your asking about drones etc now after spending how much money building?

[Deleted User]

It's cynical but the OP seems to have anticipated most of the problems.

The only people who asked for planning permission proof in my build was the bank for the mortgage.

The builder won't care because they won't be certifying anything.

The architect doesn't seem to care as they presumably won't be certifying anything.

Eircode just needs to have post going to it/physically exist.

ESB want electrical certificate.

HerrKapitan

Park rangers in the UK use drones with thermal imaging to find illegal campers in national parks.

It's not inconceivable that councils are or will soon be using similar.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658185#Comment_117658185

Anticipated what ?

The OP three hundreds of thousands of money into a building that now has no value.

He defrauded the state via claiming for this through his company.

He can't get house insurance and he can't sell it.

As he put it he was always going to build without permission.

The OP clearly has funds and means and could have purchased a house anywhere or built within the existing processes but he's better than everyone else it seems.

Personally I hope he's found out and the book is thrown at him. There's nothing cynical about it it's classic self interest.

I'm sure his neighbours think he's great , what about when he decides he's got away with this and looks to extend more or make a bit of wedge building more to sell. Where does it end....

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658191#Comment_117658191

I'm not looking to sell it, practically ever, and yes, I am in a more fortunate finanical situation than others but that is through my own hard work and having nothing handed to me. I agree with the fact that rural housing development is a finite resource that needs to be properly managed but I have a genuine need to reside in the area and there was no other suitable housing available to purchase, nor was there a suitable site within the council's 4km from family home rule. With a pregnant at the time wife, I was in need of housing and would have sought permission or purchased an existing house, had it been feasible, which it was not. I don't think I'm above others, I live a life where I prefer other people know less about me, nor do I "show off" to others, but in need of a home in the general area and nothing to purchase, I spoke to almost every farmer around but most farms around here are small farms, they need the land, and none were able to sell a suitable piece of land despite making offers at huge markups.

[Deleted User]

Your car insurance is invalid, given that you are being untruthful about your actual home address.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658225#Comment_117658225

Yes, that is a very valid point and it was something that I considered, but I want no formal documents having my current address on it until I can pass the deadline for enforcement notices. Should I be in an accident (god forbid), I am aware that there is a 50/50 chance of not being covered but this is something I was aware of when making my decision, but thank you for your input

Deub

is there a risk that Revenue makes the connection between the house and the company books?

on top of this, i thought the demolition cost was at the owners expense. Is it correct?

it may be cost neutral for house cost versus rent but the 2 points above could make it costly overall.

[Deleted User]

Don't get me wrong - I don't approve and hope he is caught.

But the OP doesn't seem to care about the potential risks and doesn't plan to sell - I think they will be in the house for decades to come.

BrianD3

Has to be a troll. The sort of person who does something so brazen is generally not the sort of person who would become concerned enough to ask advice from strangers on the internet. This ticks several boxes for a windup - large house, no planning, no insurance, potentially dodgy tax, architect knew there was no planning. Come on!

If it is genuine what I'll say is the Councils are an under resourced shambles. When it come to enforcement they react to complaints and are often inept even at that. BTW complaints will often come from relatives. If I had built that house I would be constantly on the defensive about not drawing attention to myself and wouldn't trust anyone, no matter how friendly they might seem, not to report me.

Regarding drones, every so often I hear scare stories about helicopters, planes and drones flying over the countryside being used to catch people for various transgressions such as planning and "pollution", While there may be a very limited amount of proactive use of drones, much more likely that if one is used (which is still unlikley).it would be for an initial aerial survey after a complaint or incident. And yes they do have the right to fly over anyone's land taking pictures of unauthorised developments etc.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658321#Comment_117658321

Hi, it is a genuine concern of mine, everything I've posted above is accurate and genuine, I wouldn't be wasting my time (or yours) writing it up for no reason.

I know that the government has the right to fly aircraft (manned or unmanned) over land without permission for photographing but what I meant was low-flying drones to take proper photographs.

You're definitely correct about complaints. I don't have people up to the house much in general and most of my family are unaware of the lack of planning permission. As for the builder, they had previously put up a garage and added an extension on my parent's house that required planning permission, so I knew that planning was not on the top of their agenda, and the architect and engineer didn't once object to my decision nor speak of walking away from the job.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658234#Comment_117658234

You are rationalising the decision to drive without insurance, in order to allow you to breach planning laws for your own financial gain. That is fairly anti-social behaviour.

Your questions about drones or compliance activity are meaningless. It doesn't matter what actions the Council take today. The real question is what actions the Council will take in five years time. Unless someone has a crystal ball or a time machine, they won't be able to answer the question.

There's also a good chance that you will trigger an exception in some Revenue report, when they compare your declared income to your outgoings. You're choosing to build your family home on very flimsy legal and financial foundations.

muffler

So the OP has allegedly spent €300,000 cash on something thats totally illegal yet cant afford to pay for legal advice from a solicitor but is willing to accept advice for free on social media. I call shenanigans.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658225#Comment_117658225

Lots of people use parents address as home address & might not live there full time. Also students who live in digs can have different addresses, people live part time with partners, holiday homes, living in hotels for job etc. How is the insurance invalid?

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658921#Comment_117658921

This isn't a full-time/part-time scenario. If you lie to your insurer when you apply for insurance about your address or your penalty points record or your engine modifications or the main driver, your insurance contract can be invalidated by your insurer.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657966#Comment_117657966

i have a friend that did same, cant remember what year it was but I think he's past the 7 years now. It just becomes a house that has no value except as a home that you cant sell except with out the purchaser needing credit and there are issues as the property doesn't have a folio but you can just transfer the land and the house is sorta there. Obviously rural `probably near enough to you. We have proof of the building in the form of detailed photos and video and google maps images all emailed with time stamp and i think he even got some legal stuff on it as well.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657471#Comment_117657471

If it were me I'd regularise the position with revenue, they are probably very busy with breixt and covid but jesus they will murder you if they find this out

I think OP is only concerned that council will make him knock it after it's built. That is definitely the case in a case in meath and there was a house in kerry that was demolished in an area of scenic beauty a few years back. My experience of roscommon coco is that they are super slow to get things demolished that have no planning. IMHO chances of council making you knock it are low in near term, but are very high long term.

There's definitely problems for mortgage access and house insurance without planning.

But in mean time I don't see any reason why you can't get an eircode and OP can regularise his tax affairs with revenue in terms of income tax on the "drawings" and pay property tax when new tax is rolled out this year. Then use it for car insurance and be fully legal from day 1. He'll be paying electricity and bin charges from day 1, so he'll have proof for "7 year" reason...

And on the "7 year" rule I think we've established that it will have little significance when it comes to the building eventually being dealt with by the council.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661711#Comment_117661711

A neighbour in our estate built a two storey extension & converted their attic years ago without pp then they got divorced about 6 years ago & had to sell. Neighbour said they had to apply for retention before the sale could go through but they got it no problem. Is the 7 year exemption different for extensions versus complete houses?

Don't forget most retentions are granted. That development, despite enlarging the house probably did not go against any planning guidelines for the area. It was same sewer connection, there was no change of use. The extension probably was in similar style to existing houses.

Building a brand new house in the country generally brings more complications for retention. The councils are concerned orderly development to facilitate easier servicing of dwellings with power, water, sewage, waste, telecoms etc. There's a huge legacy issue with random ribbon development in Ireland and council planning policy is trying not to let it get worse. They're failing dismally, but they're certainly slowing it down. Local need, style of house and location of and types of septic tanks and waste water processing are large hurdles for the wannabe country mansion dweller needs to overcome.

It's a gamble going for retention. OP approach is do nothing, say nothing and I'll get away with it. He's hoping better odds for his new home not being demolished.

muffler

The OP has suddenly disappeared. 🚮

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117670753#Comment_117670753

Still here, just more and more concerned 😬

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117671583#Comment_117671583

Are you OK with driving your family and kids around uninsured for a few years?

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117672008#Comment_117672008

It's a commercial Toyota Land Cruiser registered to ltd company, and the address is still a place of business (jeeps and vans kept there) so insurance isn't void? I understand a private policy would be void but I doubt this is the same.

Eldudeson

I can't see a car insurer looking for a planning number in the event of a claim. There's a house there and an eircode. Why would they look for planning permission?

Ya, I think we've gone way beyond the knock on consequences of building without planning.

I actually can't see implications for taxman nor insurance, as long as OP states it's the home address.

It's solely the power of the county council that's in play here and the consequences for the building itself by having no planning.

Eldudeson

I'd imagine the CC resources for chasing building regulations without a complaint is non-existent. They're hardly scouring google maps and cross checking records.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673641#Comment_117673641

But that's the issue, he didn't state it is the home address for insurance.

I haven't done commercial insurance recently, but I thought that a question about where the vehicle is stored overnight was standard.

OP, were you asked about where the vehicle is stored overnight?

What about your partner's car? That's the problem with living in the middle of nowhere- every movement out of the house requires a car. What's the story with insurance of the other vehicle.

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117673792#Comment_117673792

You're probably right, but how sure could you be that no one will complain? No narky in law, no righteous workmate, no nosey teacher?