Unauthorised Development Question

phill106

This house was there 10 years, and ordered to be knocked...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/couple-given-one-year-to-demolish-house-built-without-permission-1.3089521

still at it

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/couple-in-legal-saga-over-house-built-without-planning-permission-agree-to-leave-in-2022-1.4363965

and still at it...

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/couple-agree-to-leave-a-house-they-built-in-breach-of-planning-laws-in-two-years-time-39560707.html

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678946#Comment_117678946

That's the mansion I was talking about earlier. Seems as though an enforcement order was brought and they even managed to hold them off for 15 years.

Thoie

OP, there's a few different ways that it could come to their attention - some more likely than others.

1. Someone deliberately lodges a complaint - no matter how well you get on with the locals today, there's always one mad fella down the pub who wants to cause trouble for some perceived slight.
2. Someone accidentally brings it to the council's attention. E.g. Mary is refused planning because she doesn't meet local needs criteria, and says "but you granted it for JohnBoy across the road" and the council say "no we didn't" and start looking into things. In that scenario, Mary honestly assumes you got permission and is using you/your house as an argument as to why she should too.
3. Someone is doing some land registry/mapping work and is comparing satellite pics with planning maps, and notices your house has no corresponding reference number. They assume it's a mistake, go looking for the number, then realise it's an unauthorised development.
4. Census enumerator (usually local) notices that your house isn't on her list and flags this somewhere. Next census currently scheduled for April 2022.
5. A crack team of Planning Department commandos start parachuting into strange places and land on your roof. They may be accompanied by an array of drones.

You're taking a risk, but you know that. The main question to ask yourself is can you afford to eat a €300k loss and rehome yourself if it comes to it?

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679422#Comment_117679422

Thanks for your post. It's the well-thought-out and constructive posts like these that actually address my concerns, not grill me for things like driving a commercial jeep etc

Lodging of a complaint is definitely a possibility but I should be alright in that regard. Is it illegal to "bribe"/pay somebody to not make a report? I'd imagine it probably is but just asking. I spoke to the immediate neighbors about my plans etc and they were happy with it, and I won't be making it known to everybody around that I've built a house, much less that it's got no planning. (I know that they could still report after payment and I'd have no recourse but regardless)

I don't think that point 2 is of massive concern, a new planning application would be news around here as it's pretty dead and there hasn't been a single planning application nearby in over 10 years. Most of the houses around here are from the 1980s and 1990s. Hence why I'm trying to keep my house pretty well shielded from view, and it would be a pretty large home compared to the ones around it.

3 and 4 are also possibilities but there isn't anything I can do to help that so I'm not going to waste time worrying about it, but point 5 is probably the biggest concern, am going to be looking out for those pesky things 😂

As snobby as it may sound, I can eat the loss, but the problem isn't the money side of it, it's about where I would go if I can't live in the house. I'm not living there yet, still with parents, but with a wife and a child it just isn't working and I need to be around here for work. The sole reason I built the house was that there was no other place to live around here short of pitching a tent. I've tried every farmer around for land but most of the land is sterilized and the parts that aren't, they won't sell, even offering absolutely insane amounts of money for it. Made offers to buy out 3 different houses but also wouldn't sell despite offers well above market value. Got only 1 person willing to sell a piece of land, albeit at almost double what it would be worth to anybody else, was pretty certain I'd be able to build a bungalow with dormer windows to only the rear, and even then that was a longshot, one night looked it up on the planning permission map and the house next to it had a sterilization condition on it, lovely.

Deeec

Op I think if you had applied for planning permission you would have got it. Your just over 8km from your home place - thats very close. You seem to have lots of local links and you have a business locally. They would have given the planning to you for sure if you had the right architect and plans. Its a big shame you didnt apply.

Also when the child gets a little bigger how are you going to hide away - play dates at home and birthdays are a big part of kids lives. You cant live a life where noone can visit you - it will start to appear odd to people and will draw attention to you.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679734#Comment_117679734

My thought was that in 2 - 3 years' time once the house doesn't still look "brand new" it'll blend in enough to the point where 99% of people can come and go without issue, why would people ask about planning permission of all things? It's almost a given that in the years to come it'll become known to the locals, but I'm banking that's after the statute bar for enforcement kicks in.

I'm aware that there's a very good chance that a planning application would have been granted, but that's a double-edged sword, as they could very easily refuse on the basis that it's outside of the distance in the county development plan, which would be true, and then I'd have no recourse. It almost seems as though they'd be cutting me slack to grant it, and from what I've seen they take a very conservative approach to pretty much everything.

In the event of an enquiry of the council following a complaint or other discovery, I'll be submitting a retention application, which I believe if they can overlook the distance requirement, will be accepted. Although it's no small house, it's not a McMansion and it pretty much ticks all of the boxes of what I'd call a well-integrated design. Thanks for your constructive and helpful post, doesn't seem to be a given on here, this thread has turned into a dragged-out battle.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679775#Comment_117679775

I sincerely hope it does work out for you. From what you describe of the house it sounds its fits in the area.

Be careful though - its amazing how people ( even close to you ) can get jealous of houses. All it takes is for someone to look up your planning online and realise you have no planning and report you out of spite. I built my own house too ( full planning was received) - slightly smaller than yours - traditional stone built blends in well to surrounding area etc. Its shocking though the amount of jealous snipey comments I get because they preceive Im rich ( which Im not ) because we could afford to build our own home. Truth is it was alot cheaper at the time than buying a house half the size.

Best of luck user 05238

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679808#Comment_117679808

You're definitely right, people all over the world are jealous of material things but seems as though we Irish are particularly bad. The house actually ended up costing a lot less than I had imagined and I'm glad I didn't purchase a house like I was initially going to, as I'd have actually spent more on something on less land a fraction of the size. It's not a "No expense spared" home by any stretch but it has nice tiling and fittings and stonework to the front porch like yours. The number of comments not only do I get but almost everybody else around that drives anything nicer than a 2010 Passat. Used to drive a '13 320d which was a nice car but wasn't over the top fancy (this is in 2017), but a worrying amount of people passed remarks, now I just have the same jeep for personal and work and even then on an '18 Land Cruiser people are still passing remarks.

Thanks for your best wishes, definitely feels better than some of the previous posts here (which are valid opinions to be fair, but could've been worded differently and less personally)

sprucemoose

'is it illegal to "bribe"/pay somebody to not make a report?' - youre trolling now aren't you?

'I'm banking that's after the statute bar for enforcement kicks in' - its been explained to you repeatedly that this most likely wont apply in your situation

'it pretty much ticks all of the boxes of what I'd call a well-integrated design' - except youre not qualified to decide that so its not your decision to make, hence why people have to apply for planning permission (planners arent great at this usually either but thats a different rant)

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117678207#Comment_117678207

Do you think Revenue might talk to the Council?

SC024

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658829#Comment_117658829

hardly driving without insurance? your reaching there. regardless of the planning / lack thereof the OP has still purchased & presumably paid for insurance & if insurance compant accepted his payment that's on them is it not ? so your post if clutching at straws on that point?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117696734#Comment_117696734

Nope, all insurance contracts are based on the principle of 'utmost good faith'. You need to be honest and open with your insurer. If you're not, the policy can be voided.

From https://www.safaughnan.ie/what-is-utmost-good-faith/

"An insurance contract is voidable by the insurer if any representation is known to be false by the client", 

wildwillow

I know of one house built without any planning in my locality. Must be there 15 years now. Was refused twice and eventually withdrew last application, house having been built. Don't know if the planners know about it but it's fairly visible.

The entrance is very dangerous, coming downhill steeply onto a narrow hilly road with very little road view to either side.

One fatality has happened due to this entrance.

Darc19

I still say that the thread is total and utter bullsh1t.

Come on, read the posts from the op, it just doesn't add up.

Living with mammy and daddy, has wife and kid, but has no problem taking a €300,000 cash gamble.

And then says neighbours have no issues with a very large house that has been built without planning.

And he comes on boards looking for advice. Laughable.

Total and utter bullsh1t

enricoh

My oul lad converted a shed into a house 10-15 years ago and no hassle.

A mate of mines missus wanted to put a log cabin in the garden and do haircuts in it. After a few years of submissions , drawings to the council he had no joy. He rigged one up anyway.

My 2 sisters got planning 10-15 years ago n no one from the council ever called. The planner said they'd call if you hadn't the levies n fees paid!

Loose lips sink ships op! Say nothing to no one, it's a jealous mate that'll sink you!

coppergrass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117679422#Comment_117679422

Re the land registry / mapping work, there's ongoing research into automating the detection of unregistered buildings using drones. The paper: Semantic Segmentation And Unregistered Building Detection From UAV Images Using A Deconvolutional Network outlines a small such project in South Korea and can be downloaded for free.

It looks to be better suited to detecting new buildings than changes to existing ones. The technology is probably there to make a startup out of it but I'm not sure how much buy-in there'd be from local government. If someone does start a business and flogs there wares to Carlow County Council then the OP could borrow a trick from the paper and stick a few tennis courts on the roof to avoid detection!

Novice Self-Build

Well, any update?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120536419#Comment_120536419

Google's your friend!