Unauthorised Development Question

user05238

Hi, using a burner account for this post for what I hope are obvious reasons.

I've constructed a 2 story dwelling in the southeast on a rural site, not visible from the road due to forestry, and my driveway opens to a private lane which I have right of way. Unable to find a site within the required 4km of the family home, I technically did not qualify for Local Need on the site I purchased, as it was 8.6km from the family home. I didn't want to risk a refused planning application so the dwelling has been constructed without planning permission. I'm aware that the "7-year rule" is not a catch-all and it will still be an unauthorized development in 7 years, but I do not see myself selling the property and I weighed my options before choosing to go ahead with this.

Neighbors are sound people and have no problem with the development, but my worry/question is whether the council has a right to come and inspect my property without my permission. My view is that they would be unable to detect it without being able to see it (It still cannot be seen even from the private lane), or without somebody reporting it. Do they have a right to inspect my property without my permission? My property has a large gate, hedges, and panel fencing and the only way to gain access to the property is through the electric gates.

In total, a 2-story 3700sqft dwelling with a ridge height of 8.2m, a 2-car garage, septic tank (with treatment system and percolation area), and 1.7m high brick entrance has been constructed.

Thanks in advance.

Darc19

Yeah right

And some people are going to believe this garbage post.

sydthebeat

Why do you think they'd need to inspect the house in order to start legal proceedings against you?

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654817#Comment_117654817

My main concern/question is how they detect unauthorized developments such as this, as it isn't visible and assuming they don't receive any complaints, and if they do somehow get wind of it through a complaint, of course then they'd need proof of an unauthorized development but they couldn't possibly photograph it etc without gaining access to the property.

Darc19

Ah come on, do posters really believe the sh1te posted by the op? Seriously?

Whatwicklow

Geometric shapes are picked up in aerial photography,

Whatwicklow

The Mighty Quinn

Considering I know somebody actively doing similar in rural Kilkenny would leave me to believe that this poster could well be genuine. In that case there's a cluster of farm buildings among which he's building a 200sq m new house, it's well nestled and can't be seen from any public road, or adjacent private road.

I suppose drone photography would show this up fairly quickly however.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654873#Comment_117654873

Thank you for your help, helped reach a conclusion without straight up being rude. This is a genuine case, began construction in early 2020 but not yet living in it.

Darc19 doesn't exactly seem like the greatest poster on here.

If anybody else knows for certain of cases where councils are actively using drones to keep a check over lands, or whether it would only be to check a complaint, your input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Darc19

If it is genuine, then check out the case in navan. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/couple-in-legal-saga-over-house-built-without-planning-permission-agree-to-leave-in-2022-1.4363965

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654892#Comment_117654892

Seen that before building, but it seems like from what I've seen from the photos, they built it in open view in a field on a site that they were denied planning for, this exact case was actually one of the factors I didn't try to apply for planning, as if I was denied planning then I stand no chance at retention. That, and the fact that the council may check a site that has refused planning more often, if at all, as opposed to a site was never applied on.

Just have to sit and wait out the time now 😶

yurtyaherne

Enforcement Officers within Planning Authorities have powers of entry which gives them the right to enter your property without consent for the purposes of carrying out their job.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/30/section/253/enacted/en/html

More and more local authorities are not utilising drone footage for the purposes of inspecting unauthorised developments.

Ordnance Survey Ireland flyovers will also pick up the shape of the building when surveying and this will be included on future mapping as well as GeoHive aerial imaging.

What are you doing for an ESB or water connection? Both ESB and Irish Water will request a planning reference number before connecting your property as far as I'm aware.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654947#Comment_117654947

Had no idea that Enforcement officers could do that, for them to enter they'd either have to break down the gates or I'd have to open them, I presume to deny them access carries healthy punishments 😬

There isn't a public water connection available here, so using a bored well. ESB didn't ask for a planning reference, but it seems logical that they would need it, but I'm unsure. We had a meter installed but they didn't need to add any poles etc but I assume a planning ref would definitely be needed.

Once a structure is picked up on maps, do councils check these for planning and then look into it? Makes sense that they would but I would imagine that there are a lot of new structures picked up so I have doubts as to whether they look into each one, but taking 1 look at the shape of the building from above and they would instantly know it's a dwelling, as shows a large box with a living room off of the side and a porch to the front.

Borzoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654882#Comment_117654882

They don't need to. They use Google Earth imagery, but the high resolution commercial version.

Darc19

I still can't believe the op.

Probably a €300,000+ gamble

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654873#Comment_117654873

I agree and I also know people not a million miles from me who built without permission, in one case evidence produced included Google maps footage, taken in 2008/9, clearly showing no dwellings from the road that ran along side the site in question, it was a log cabin structure which I thought looked lovely but eventually it was removed at enormous expense including legal fee's. Seperately, it also occured to me that the land registry maps are pretty up to date, albeit I noticed when searching my Folio, site it still shows a structure, which was infact a mobile home I had in situ during restorations of my cottage, the mobile home long gone and removed in 2012.

There's numerous ways to identify existing or non existing structures on land or sites.

Honestly it's really not wise to contemplate building without permission, this 7 year rule is a nonsense and anyone depending on it to retain an unauthorised dwelling won't find much sympathy in the courts I'm afraid.

yurtyaherne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654971#Comment_117654971

One of the local authorities I'm most familiar with are using drones on nearly all site inspections now. The software that the drone imagery is processed with can build a 3D model to which accurate measurements can be taken. This eliminates any conflict with developers and with the whole COVID situation avoids any interaction with 3rd parties.

I've heard of some of the bigger councils check ordnance survey maps versus previous versions.

The GIS system most planning sections use (ARC GIS) will allow the user layer newer mapping (in a slight transparency) over previous versions of mapping which instantly shows newer structures in a different colour to existing structures, since all planning applications are now digitised and mapped on the same GIS system, they can turn on another layer which would instantly show planning references (or not) where a new structure appears. Its not exactly a massively complex or time consuming job to do. Would have been different years ago with paper based maps

yurtyaherne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655112#Comment_117655112

Land Direct mapping is based on Ordnance Survey mapping. OS might not survey some rural areas that often (some OS maps have complete housing estates missing from them). The next time they survey, it should update the fact that the mobile home is long since removed.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654833#Comment_117654833

generally complaints. never underestimate the begrudgery of irish people.

plus you will have an eircode, mprn of esb meter and the obvious OSI map renewals

all of which will indicate the presence of a dwelling on site.

you may also have revenue onto you to find out how you paid for a 3700 sq ft house without a mortgage, should a complaint be made there.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/assist-us/reporting-shadow-economy-activity/index.aspx

maestroamado

https://www.bing.com/maps

Can you see it here...

Dempo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655257#Comment_117655257

Yes understood, my examples are as rural as it gets, indeed when crows flyover my cottage in the slieve bloom mountains, they bring a packed lunch.

There was a major aerial survey done in the area about 8 years ago (at least that what we were notified about) as there quite a large aircraft was flying over quite low for a few weeks, quite a site actually.

I believe Google maps road images was last updated around 2008/9? around my area.

yurtyaherne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117655378#Comment_117655378

I think some of the most recent surveys being done were Geological Survey Ireland surveys. It may well have been OSI though.

Yes, the original Google Streetview imagery was captured around 2008/2009. A lot of rural areas haven't been updated since but most major towns would be done very 3-4 years. I can go onto google maps and look at the imagery from my local town from 2008, 2011, 2015 etc

user05238

The structure does appear on the landdirect site which is worrying but expected.

No, the structure does not appear on Bing Maps, nor on Google Maps, but I assume this is only a matter of time. Google Maps last updated on Sept. 2017 and Streetview of nearby roads are from 2009.

The actual shell of the building (foundations, walls, roofing, windows etc) was paid for through my company, as construction expenses are acceptable within my company's industry, and this didn't offset the books, as figures are still in line with previous 5+ years. The interior was completed with some direct labour, but a lot was paid for using personal debit cards and cash.

We do have an eircode and receive letters and packages without any issues, didn't even register with me that they'd see an eircode.

All of this stacking up is definitely concerning, I knew it would appear on imagery and maps but the eircode and ESB meter are dead giveaways. I don't have this address registered on any government documents, or anything too formal. Car insurance, company registration, etc are still registered to my parent's address. I also do not have home insurance, as I think this would definitely run into issues with an unauthorized development.

Thanks everybody for your help.

GetWithIt

How do you have an Eircode? Are you sure it’s not for a different property? understood they were only assigned through the pre-planning and planning processes.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657507#Comment_117657507

We went onto the eircode website late last year and submitted them with the location etc of the dwelling but they never actually asked for any planning permission reference number nor certificate. When I go to the eircode site and type in my eircode, the red pointer is exactly on top of my house, and it shows the same shape as is on the land direct site, so I'm guessing there was definitely a map update recently.

user05238

Just noticed, the 2 car garage which is quite wide, does not appear on the eircode site nor the land direct site, which is odd to me, as it's a pretty standard garage height but is finished with a black slate roof.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117654833#Comment_117654833

Drones man look out for drones

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657642#Comment_117657642

Do they have the right to fly droves over my land, other people's lands, and the private lane (without other landowner's agreeing).

I spoke to my neighbors about my plans before building, showed them where it would go and which design and they were all happy with it, I get on very well with them and they would back me in the case of the council trying to gain access.

rn

From what I recall from my build only, my engineer, the bank and insurance were obsessed with planning.

I think there's probably three grounds for concern here for you. First is a "local" complaint, not necessarily you're immediate neighbours. Second is environmental. I'm guessing you have a septic tank, which council will want to discover as not registered. Third is eventually this land has to be transferred to next of kin or someone else, hopefully not for a long time. Unauthorised development is a huge problem for transfer.

BTW if you used the business to expense building the groundworks, don't you owe income tax to revenue for that? You've essentially drawn personal income from the business to the value of the work done.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058200518/unauthorised-development-question

One question why did you do it? Why didnt you just apply for planning permission and see what happened? You may have got planning. Thats a fairly large house you built and it wont be unnoticle despite how well you think its hidden. I do sincerely hope you get to enjoy a long life living there but you will always risk someone realising you didnt adhere to planning and will report you. Believe me it could be one of your closest friends that does it.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657879#Comment_117657879

I was going to build regardless of planning permission, and to me, after seeing other cases (Esp. the case mentioned above by Darc19), seems as though it would be better to build without any application and then apply for retention if caught, but retention for a build that was built after getting a refused application would be a definitive no and stand no chance, as opposed to retention for a build with no planning, and it seems more likely they would check a site where there was a refused application, more than one that never had an application.

The house is quite large but the design definitely scales it properly, it isn't just one huge block, and whilst it cannot be seen from the road, you are right in saying it won't be unnoticible.

I researched a lot into transferring an unauthorized development, I know for sure that this will not be able to be sold in the traditional sense, but as far as transfer to next of kin, from what I've read some solicitors will require a planning certificate and won't help the transfer without it, but in this case, finding another solicitor wouldn't be too big of a deal.

Thank you :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657870#Comment_117657870

That seems about right, I didn't think too much about it at the time but looking back it, it's a wonder ESB would install to a property without asking for proof of planning, they never once asked anything regarding planning permission, and the same when applying for an eircode. I know you need a planning certification to draw down a mortgage but that wasn't an issue in this case, and the lack of home insurance is worrying but there isn't anything I can do now. The builders, architect etc all knew from the beginning there would not be planning permission, and because of this the builder requested that the full amount for his work be paid before any work commenced, which is what we ended up doing.

Yes, there is a septic tank & percolation area and there is also a well & garage, all of which I believe need planning but I think the main concern is the main house.

As far as the company is concerned, I am aware and was aware of what was happening and the risks involved, and after considering my options, I decided to go ahead. This is the primary reason I am using a burner account to discuss my concerns, I'll just need to wait out the 7 years and if worst comes to worst then I'll apply for retention. Based on other cases of unauthorized development, it took 15 years to for the case posted above to actually come to the point of vacating the property, and if the property remains my home for 15 years from now then even after demolition, the total cost will be less than what I would have paid to rent a similar property for the same period of time. (A terrible financial thought but a way to justify a bad decision should it come to the worst)

One last question, the "7 year rule" as it's called would obviously need proof that the dwelling has been there, in 7 years time. How would I go about creating proof of the property? Would the ESB connection and eircode be enough?

rn

Just on 7 year rule, I am aware of a bungalow that was developed without planning here in Roscommon near Athlone, that had to be knocked when the land was sold after the owner died. The sale didn't go through until all buildings were gone. However the foundations remain. The house had been standing for over 13 years with no action by council, despite complaints by neighbours of it being built illegally. 3 planning requests were turned down by council. And the land/site had at least 3 buyers and eventually sold at half its valuation... I'd say because development potential has been wrecked.

gogo

Similar case in Laois, large shed converted into a dwelling house, no expenses spared, it was beautiful, they were going on the basis that the shed had been in situ for many years and they would apply for retention after the fact….

the house is now a shed again with a lovely new layer of concrete blocks surrounding the entire shed, complete and utter waste of time and money on the owners behalf. It’s now an uglier shed than it was in the first place, all windows/internal modifications etc removed.

To rely on the seven year rule is crazy, even asking the above questions after building to me is crazy, it’s seems incredulous that your asking about drones etc now after spending how much money building?

It's cynical but the OP seems to have anticipated most of the problems.

The only people who asked for planning permission proof in my build was the bank for the mortgage.

The builder won't care because they won't be certifying anything.

The architect doesn't seem to care as they presumably won't be certifying anything.

Eircode just needs to have post going to it/physically exist.

ESB want electrical certificate.

HerrKapitan

Park rangers in the UK use drones with thermal imaging to find illegal campers in national parks.

It's not inconceivable that councils are or will soon be using similar.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658185#Comment_117658185

Anticipated what ?

The OP three hundreds of thousands of money into a building that now has no value.

He defrauded the state via claiming for this through his company.

He can't get house insurance and he can't sell it.

As he put it he was always going to build without permission.

The OP clearly has funds and means and could have purchased a house anywhere or built within the existing processes but he's better than everyone else it seems.

Personally I hope he's found out and the book is thrown at him. There's nothing cynical about it it's classic self interest.

I'm sure his neighbours think he's great , what about when he decides he's got away with this and looks to extend more or make a bit of wedge building more to sell. Where does it end....

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658191#Comment_117658191

I'm not looking to sell it, practically ever, and yes, I am in a more fortunate finanical situation than others but that is through my own hard work and having nothing handed to me. I agree with the fact that rural housing development is a finite resource that needs to be properly managed but I have a genuine need to reside in the area and there was no other suitable housing available to purchase, nor was there a suitable site within the council's 4km from family home rule. With a pregnant at the time wife, I was in need of housing and would have sought permission or purchased an existing house, had it been feasible, which it was not. I don't think I'm above others, I live a life where I prefer other people know less about me, nor do I "show off" to others, but in need of a home in the general area and nothing to purchase, I spoke to almost every farmer around but most farms around here are small farms, they need the land, and none were able to sell a suitable piece of land despite making offers at huge markups.

AndrewJRenko

Your car insurance is invalid, given that you are being untruthful about your actual home address.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658225#Comment_117658225

Yes, that is a very valid point and it was something that I considered, but I want no formal documents having my current address on it until I can pass the deadline for enforcement notices. Should I be in an accident (god forbid), I am aware that there is a 50/50 chance of not being covered but this is something I was aware of when making my decision, but thank you for your input

Deub

is there a risk that Revenue makes the connection between the house and the company books?

on top of this, i thought the demolition cost was at the owners expense. Is it correct?

it may be cost neutral for house cost versus rent but the 2 points above could make it costly overall.

Don't get me wrong - I don't approve and hope he is caught.

But the OP doesn't seem to care about the potential risks and doesn't plan to sell - I think they will be in the house for decades to come.

BrianD3

Has to be a troll. The sort of person who does something so brazen is generally not the sort of person who would become concerned enough to ask advice from strangers on the internet. This ticks several boxes for a windup - large house, no planning, no insurance, potentially dodgy tax, architect knew there was no planning. Come on!

If it is genuine what I'll say is the Councils are an under resourced shambles. When it come to enforcement they react to complaints and are often inept even at that. BTW complaints will often come from relatives. If I had built that house I would be constantly on the defensive about not drawing attention to myself and wouldn't trust anyone, no matter how friendly they might seem, not to report me.

Regarding drones, every so often I hear scare stories about helicopters, planes and drones flying over the countryside being used to catch people for various transgressions such as planning and "pollution", While there may be a very limited amount of proactive use of drones, much more likely that if one is used (which is still unlikley).it would be for an initial aerial survey after a complaint or incident. And yes they do have the right to fly over anyone's land taking pictures of unauthorised developments etc.

user05238

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658321#Comment_117658321

Hi, it is a genuine concern of mine, everything I've posted above is accurate and genuine, I wouldn't be wasting my time (or yours) writing it up for no reason.

I know that the government has the right to fly aircraft (manned or unmanned) over land without permission for photographing but what I meant was low-flying drones to take proper photographs.

You're definitely correct about complaints. I don't have people up to the house much in general and most of my family are unaware of the lack of planning permission. As for the builder, they had previously put up a garage and added an extension on my parent's house that required planning permission, so I knew that planning was not on the top of their agenda, and the architect and engineer didn't once object to my decision nor speak of walking away from the job.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658234#Comment_117658234

You are rationalising the decision to drive without insurance, in order to allow you to breach planning laws for your own financial gain. That is fairly anti-social behaviour.

Your questions about drones or compliance activity are meaningless. It doesn't matter what actions the Council take today. The real question is what actions the Council will take in five years time. Unless someone has a crystal ball or a time machine, they won't be able to answer the question.

There's also a good chance that you will trigger an exception in some Revenue report, when they compare your declared income to your outgoings. You're choosing to build your family home on very flimsy legal and financial foundations.

muffler

So the OP has allegedly spent €300,000 cash on something thats totally illegal yet cant afford to pay for legal advice from a solicitor but is willing to accept advice for free on social media. I call shenanigans.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658225#Comment_117658225

Lots of people use parents address as home address & might not live there full time. Also students who live in digs can have different addresses, people live part time with partners, holiday homes, living in hotels for job etc. How is the insurance invalid?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117658921#Comment_117658921

This isn't a full-time/part-time scenario. If you lie to your insurer when you apply for insurance about your address or your penalty points record or your engine modifications or the main driver, your insurance contract can be invalidated by your insurer.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657966#Comment_117657966

i have a friend that did same, cant remember what year it was but I think he's past the 7 years now. It just becomes a house that has no value except as a home that you cant sell except with out the purchaser needing credit and there are issues as the property doesn't have a folio but you can just transfer the land and the house is sorta there. Obviously rural `probably near enough to you. We have proof of the building in the form of detailed photos and video and google maps images all emailed with time stamp and i think he even got some legal stuff on it as well.

Vestiapx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117657471#Comment_117657471

If it were me I'd regularise the position with revenue, they are probably very busy with breixt and covid but jesus they will murder you if they find this out

rn

I think OP is only concerned that council will make him knock it after it's built. That is definitely the case in a case in meath and there was a house in kerry that was demolished in an area of scenic beauty a few years back. My experience of roscommon coco is that they are super slow to get things demolished that have no planning. IMHO chances of council making you knock it are low in near term, but are very high long term.

There's definitely problems for mortgage access and house insurance without planning.

But in mean time I don't see any reason why you can't get an eircode and OP can regularise his tax affairs with revenue in terms of income tax on the "drawings" and pay property tax when new tax is rolled out this year. Then use it for car insurance and be fully legal from day 1. He'll be paying electricity and bin charges from day 1, so he'll have proof for "7 year" reason...

And on the "7 year" rule I think we've established that it will have little significance when it comes to the building eventually being dealt with by the council.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117661711#Comment_117661711

A neighbour in our estate built a two storey extension & converted their attic years ago without pp then they got divorced about 6 years ago & had to sell. Neighbour said they had to apply for retention before the sale could go through but they got it no problem. Is the 7 year exemption different for extensions versus complete houses?