An Post returning packages from outside the EU-See 1st post

thelordgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014854#Comment_118014854

That is exactly the reason for the problem - the CN22 and IOSS number on the parcel is not sufficient on its own - its the electronic declaration that is needed. The CN22/23 forms should actually be printed out by the post office (and not hand written) from the electronic information that is also entered in the system. The sooner retailers realise this the sooner people will get their goods. Every parcel I have received from China in recent weeks has come through without problems with charges applied as applicable.

Previously the majority of packages were let through without being checked (which was fine for us) but a decision has been taken by someone to check every package and An Post obviously don't have the means to do it manually so it looks like a zero tolerance approach is being taken to only let through items with the correct electronic declaration. The sooner foreign retailers realize this the better. The Chinese have seemed to manage it so its seems amazing that English speaking countries have failed to do so. Reading this thread it seems to me that the electronic information is lacking in most cases of packages being returned.

While I have every sympathy with those that have packages held up/returned/stuck in limbo, there is little point expecting An Post "reps" to explain where their packages actually are - they only have access to the same tracking information as we have. No-one is going to head to the parcel centre to look for it. And An Post do treat their customers/receivers with exactly the same contempt as they give their agents in post offices around the country who get the same flack - I export quite a bit to the states and the local post office never get a reply when they query a missing parcel for me. Keep pressure on your local politicians rather than the media to highlight the issue if you believe you are being treated unfairly. DPD customer care got a roasting in the Irish Times recently but I doubt that will affect their dismal service.

dimaie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017267#Comment_118017267

"Previously the majority of packages were let through without being checked (which was fine for us) but a decision has been taken by someone to check every package and An Post obviously don't have the means to do it manually so it looks like a zero tolerance approach is being taken to only let through items with the correct electronic declaration."

Zero tolerance approach is good enough if the process is transparent to all stake holders. My packets were returned with the only word "Refused" on their labels which in combination with the label on the web-site gave a false impression that these packets were refused by the addressee. This significantly complicated EBay process of claiming refund on those packets.

"Reading this thread it seems to me that the electronic information is lacking in most cases of packages being returned."

In my case the 2 out of 3 returned packets had electronic customs declarations and they still were returned. I am not sure about the 3rd one - the sender did not respond. Those parcels were from Russia and I was told by the senders that Russian post simply would not send anything without electronic customs declaration.

So, the frustration is not about the objectives but about bad implementation. Every tax has administration costs associated with it. If they want to collect VAT on small packets, they should be doing this as transparent as possible rather then simply passing all its potential costs to their customers.

PhilHill69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017267#Comment_118017267

If only this was the answer, the problem would be solved....simple.

However, I amongst many other shippers have included the electronic data, I have to or my Royal Mail business account would not allow me to print the shipping label. Once the correct electronic data is submitted, relevant taric codes etc the the CN22 can also be printed out populated with the data provided....that was also sent electronically. Despite this, a good percentage of my items shipped to Ireland in August were returned by An Post. I am sure there are many people who will not be submitting electronic data, but also many retailers do, and are still none the wiser what An Posts specific requirements are.

As I have stated on many occasions now, for the first time in 15 years of shipping internationally, I will only use a courier to post to Ireland. I have used Fedex for the previous few weeks and all my parcels sent have been received without issue in a matter of days.

osarusan

Apologies if this is not the right forum (perhaps a mod could move it to the right one, if there is one), but I had a package returned to sender because of a missing TARIC Code, and I'm hoping to get some advice here.

This was a package sent by aunt-in-law in Japan, full of different items such as pickled plums, green tea, and dried fish (bonito flakes). It got to Ireland, failed customs clearance, and was sent back to Japan. She wants to send it again, but wants to know what the issue is.

In discussion with An post on Facebook (where they have been prompt and helpful, to be fair), after getting the track and trace number they said it's a missing TARIC Code, and sent me this link to generate one: https://www.anpost.com/Commerce/Parcel-Solutions/International-Parcels/Find-a-TARIC-Commodity-code

The issue here is that I could generate at least 3 different codes depending on which item I put into the description (tea, dried fish, etc), and none of them would really be an accurate/full description of the contents.

How do we go about getting the right TARIC Code in this situation?

BronsonTB

This is a serious ongoing issue for An Post at the moment - Their internal systems are failing & not handling goods from outside the EU very well.

See more on this thread

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997048#Comment_117997048

You won't get one 'right' taric code to cover all you are putting in the box so itemize it with the 3 taric codes to fully cover the package (Or send seperately)

davetherave

Each separate item should be on it's own line in the customs declaration.

Like the attached

thelordgod

Post #1262 https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015016#Comment_118015016 is a good example of insufficient electronic data being submitted by Japan Post customers (and consequent rejections). Of course An Post have not sufficiently clarified their requirements with other postal organisations abroad. But believe me this is not just an Irish problem - USPS is rejecting quite a bit of mail too due to incorrect/inadequate item descriptions and the usual practice of declaring goods as gifts when they are not. There is actually no reason for most items to be declared as a gift going to the states as they have an $800 exemption on goods for personal use. And as many have pointed out An Post doesn't give a reason for mail rejection so it does make it difficult to fix a problem when one doesn't know what the actual problem is. Also the passing the buck by An Post is quite disgraceful too - blaming customs/revenue - Customs don't handle the packages AFAIK - its actually An Post employees doing it on behalf of the revenue. Only if a package is seized it is then passed to actual Customs staff.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018240#Comment_118018240

Thanks for this. Is it necessary even for something marked as a gift? Or should I just get them to do it anyway to increase their chances of the package making it through?

TARIC (TARif Intégré Communautaire) codes are all 10 digit. They’re the EU extension of the international HS (harmonised system) 6 digit codes.

I’m wondering if certain post offices are only applying HS codes? TARIC is a very specific EU and Customs Union system. It’s not used globally.

Looking at information provided by both An Post and a lot of other postal carriers, none of them is clear about this or which is acceptable.

dimaie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018418#Comment_118018418

My own experience with that calculator is pretty bad, the search implementation is awful and it's not production worthy.

That said, my gut feeling is that An Post validation is more about completeness of the declaration rather than the actual correctness - I have received few packets where the data were not valid but were in a sense 'complete'.

micks_address

sorry if this has been asked before... someone sent me a watch strap last week from the uk, royal mail untracked. im guessing no codes or anything were put on the envelop. It should be small like a tiny packet. Are an post just blindly returning this kind of package?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018520#Comment_118018520

If it has no declaration at all it will be returned to sender. If there’s no sender information on it it will likely be destroyed.

If it were posted without any documentation, it’s unlikely to have even left the U.K.

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018513#Comment_118018513

Yeah, the impression I got from the An Post staff was that it needed a code (any code will do) to make it through.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018513#Comment_118018513

Well they’d have to open the packages to be concerned about absolute accuracy. They are concerned about automation due to huge volumes from the U.K. from what I can see of it.

To manually process that volume of paperwork would probably be impossible. They’re communicating that very, very badly though and they’re not explaining the difference between HS and TARIC codes and EDI (electronic data interchange) and just printed labels.

I think there’s a major communication problem at both the Irish side and the senders’ side.

They appear to need full electronic pre declaration using TARIC codes, not HS.

The codes aren't that complicated. You just have to use the correct type and the correct electronic process.

dimaie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018424#Comment_118018424

"Of course An Post have not sufficiently clarified their requirements with other postal organisations abroad."

It seems this is not the only thing they did not do.

This was a major change and they were aware of it months, if not years before it came into effect. They would have to analyze the incoming traffic, identify the potential issues and ensure that their software and other resources are capable of handling them with a minimum inconvenience caused to their customers. If their resources were not adequate for the task, this would have to be flagged too. At the same time they should start communicating these issues with the potential major offenders, like RM, and share the information about this with the general public, so that it would not come up as a nasty surprise.

All they need to say is we need TARIC codes. They could put a full description on their website explaining what they are and why they’re not HS codes.

They also need to explain what EDI is and why they need it and how to use it.

They could also provide a look up tool and they need to communicate this very very very thoroughly with high volume senders like the Royal Mail.

Given the volumes, the RM should be sending letters to e-commerce retailers too.

As it stands, it’s as clear as mud and nobody seems to know what’s going on, including people working with this stuff. Everyone’s doing what they think is correct.

All that the post offices will succeed in doing is losing business to couriers with proper systems in place for this kind of traffic.

mikkijan

Sorry for long post but I really need to let off steam. I've learnt a lot from reading this thread since yesterday, thank you all contributors.

My poor old 85 year old Mum in the UK posted a small packet to me on 27th September which has not arrived and she's really upset about that. From what I have learned I'm now sure it is unlikely to turn up. I just hope it makes it back to her at some point.

I could understand it if she had slapped some stamps on and stuck it in a post box, but she didn't. She went to the Post Office and the person behind the glass screen asked her the questions and entered all the information into their computer to create whatever was necessary. She told them it was a doll's outfit, Gift, value, her name and address, my name and address were already on it of course, including Eircode. They weighed it - the weight is on her receipt. There's no tracking as she sent it Standard.

Mum doesn't know all the ins and outs of customs forms and taric codes, but IMO she shouldn't need to! She should be able to rely on her PO staff to know the procedure. It's going to be a grim Christmas for many people if family and friends in UK can't even send anything without all this stress.

Until yesterday I just assumed things were slow, two and a half weeks - yes it may still show up. But yesterday I discovered that my Christmas present from another family member, which again was sent at a post office, with tracking, forms done electronically by staff, is being returned to sender. Reason just states problem with customs form. I came here and discovered everything that's going on. I've only bought from Amazon since July so wasn't aware of all this.

I'm grateful to the person who posted the link to a newspaper article, that was most interesting. I was mad at what I read in the inset box where An Post are blaming small business people and private individuals for being clueless though! That's the thing which is making me fume, my family members went to the PO and the staff did their job - how can An Post say it's their own fault?

Rant over, thank you.

Have you considered that the electronic information being entered isn't actually making it to An Post correctly?

Royal Mail aren't exactly known for reliable IT - hundreds of postmasters were prosecuted and some even went to jail accused of stealing money, based on RM information.

It turns out that known bugs were causing gaps in the accounts, files getting corrupted, over written, not interfacing etc.

It took years to prove:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/business-56718036.amp

Of course An Post's programmes could be suffering from the similar afflictions.

mikkijan

@[Deleted User] Good point! Yes I was following those cases, absolutely dreadful what they did to those postmasters.

dimaie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019139#Comment_118019139

There was a quite old article in The Irish Times:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/an-post-blames-brexit-and-eu-customs-for-delivery-issues-following-criticism-1.4671803

There was also article in Independent but it would require a subscription:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/an-post-now-seeing-at-first-hand-the-brexit-squeeze-on-british-business-40929967.html

This is the problem though. The customer did everything correctly. The Royal Mail Post Office staff entered everything as per how they’ve been told to do it and have done what they’re supposed to do, but the data isn’t getting to An Post or isn’t being encoded correctly.

It’s going into a fully automatic sorting system, so if the data isn’t correct it will be dumped back and the volume of packages and what’s being paid to An Post for handling them probably doesn’t justify the resources that would be needed to hand process them, so they have to do something.

I suspect the problem is at the Royal Mail and is about miscommunication of specifications.

This is a big change and it’s also one that was long flagged. It sounds to me like some IT systems and processes aren’t setup for it.

There’s a systems failure and I think the outbound post offices are the ones with the relationship with the customers and who’ve been paid to deliver the items. It’s not good enough to just let it fall between two administrations and just shrug 🤷‍♀️ 🤷‍♂️

If they don’t get it right, most traffic will just end up going through couriers and both post offices will lose business.

I think you’re basically dealing with multiple slow moving, bureaucratic organisations.

rf4c

For what it's worth, I've had three packages returned to the UK.

I discussed it with each sender and the common thread is an 8 digit Tariff code, whereas An Post wants 10!

Maybe this is the confusion between AP and RM???

Just a thought?

EU TARIC codes ARE 10-digits.

International HS codes are 6-digits.

One is an extension of the other. If they want TARIC codes, they are 10-digit. It's a simple as that. They are not the same thing.

The impression I get is the Post Office in the UK, An Post and various others have no idea what they're talking about.

TARIC Codes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TARIC_code

HS Codes: https://www.tradefinanceglobal.com/freight-forwarding/what-is-an-hs-code/

It needs to be clarified ASAP as it's impacting consumers and sellers quite badly.

deezell

It's not just the UK that's getting returns, its everywhere in the world, including EU counties who act as customs clearing for non EU countries, such as DHL. My packet sent back to DHL in Germany ffs, though DHL deemed it correctly labelled and registered to allow into the EU. They're all out of step of course, only AnPost is doing it right.

dimaie

I think the An Post issue could be looked from two different angles, the technical and the moral one, and the latter could be even be more important.

The situation is slowly improving from the technical perspective - they have survived against the first waves of furious customers, the number of angry tweets is going down, their payment system is more or less stable and they seem to be able to provide specific reasons for the returned items. It will never be the same again but they will probably be able to reach some consensus with the major players like RM or USPS.

From the moral perspective the situation is worse as they've let their customers down. Not the senders, EU, or the Customs who accordingly to their version of events are to be blamed for this, but their customers, who did nothing wrong, paid postal fees, taxes and duties and eventually lost their time, money and sometimes goods. What makes the situation worse is that An Post don't seem to recognize the issue, continue telling lies as a matter of course and making false and pretentious claims. This probably won't be easily forgotten and will remain a strong factor in the future relations with their customers.

Sorry for the long text and thank you for reading.

I think the problem basically comes down to the fact that you're dealing with a group of companies (post offices) that are used to being monopolies and having little or no accountability.

If there's been a rule change, they have collectively handled it appallingly and they don't seem to even see that.

All that will happen is people will tick the option to send by one of the couriers instead and skip the post office entirely. That means loss of revenue for Royal Mail, An Post, and anyone else.

mikkijan

I suppose the best we can hope for is that it all comes to a head over the next 10 weeks as those who don't normally receive much overseas post fall victim to this shambles when the annual parcels from their friends and relations fail to arrive. Maybe then this will get more news coverage.

micks_address

Are an post doing robo calls re import duty? I had a call today from a mobile number in automated voice from Irish tax and customs hung up

whiterebel

Scam?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024090#Comment_118024090

No, that’s definitely a scam. Don’t engage with it at all. They’re taking advantage of the Brexit chaos and assuming that many people are expecting packages.