Can you afford a home?

pgj2015

L1011 wrote: »

There are more Michelin starred restaurants in Ireland outside of Dublin than in Dublin.

There are Starbucks fecking everywhere. But the number in Dublin City Centre has been declining for years.

Country living is ok but come on city living is very attractive to younger people especially. its easy to meet people of the opposite sex in a city by far compared to a town down the country.

Tony EH

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Time will tell.
WFH is still a novel concept. Employee engagement, especially new hires who have never stepped foot in an office or met a coworker in real life, will have to be monitored and measures.

Honestly, I don't think it's here to stay. Businesses will want a hybrid model (which my own employer is going for) but honestly that's the worst of both worlds IMO.

This is correct. Time will tell. But WFH is ONLY here because of Covid and, more than likely, it'll be whipped away once Covid is eliminated.

I think too many people look around at what they have right now and think that this is the way things are going to be from now on. But that's never the case and it never has been.

The "hybrid model" is only a temp measure, because Covid is still with us and probably will be from some time to come. But it won't be here forever...

...and neither will WFH.

I'm sorry to say.

Hello Moto GP

Tony EH wrote: »

This is correct. Time will tell. But WFH is ONLY here because of Covid and, more than likely, it'll be whipped away once Covid is eliminated.

I think too many people look around at what they have right now and think that this is the way things are going to be from now on. But that's never the case and it never has been.

The "hybrid model" is only a temp measure, because Covid is still with us and probably will be from some time to come. But it won't be here forever...

...and neither will WFH.

I'm sorry to say.

Thats just your opinion, the hybrid model will 100% definitely be hear to stay.

Whether its one day, two days or three days in the office it is here and is here to stay, especially in tech. Maybe some other industries it won't be such as finance and accountancy but it most tech companies there going to offer some sort of a hybrid model.

PauloMN

Tony EH wrote: »

This is correct. Time will tell. But WFH is ONLY here because of Covid and, more than likely, it'll be whipped away once Covid is eliminated.

I think too many people look around at what they have right now and think that this is the way things are going to be from now on. But that's never the case and it never has been.

The "hybrid model" is only a temp measure, because Covid is still with us and probably will be from some time to come. But it won't be here forever...

...and neither will WFH.

I'm sorry to say.

WFH was growing before we ever heard the word "Covid". The pandemic just accelerated the inevitable. Too many gains for employers not to expand it, esp international companies. That's why all the big companies have already offered it on a permanent basis if it suits the role.

Less costs also, half the number of desks in shiny Dublin office buildings. Once pandemic is over, lots of office space will be for hot-desking.

Tony EH

Hello Moto GP wrote: »

Thats just your opinion, the hybrid model will 100% definitely be hear to stay.

Whether its one day, two days or three days in the office it is here and is here to stay, especially in tech. Maybe some other industries it won't be such as finance and accountancy but it most tech companies there going to offer some sort of a hybrid model.

And that's just your opinion.

See how redundant that line is?

You sound terrified that WFH will be taken away from you. I understand that.

Tony EH

PauloMN wrote: »

WFH was growing before we ever heard the word "Covid".

On a low scale. A VERY low scale. I should know, I've be doing it years and pre-Covid everyone was jealous of it.

But it won't last in general. We just don't have the trust of employers to allow it to. Padre Pio is entirely correct. We'll see people gradually pulled back into the office. Based largely on bogus reasons of course. But it will still happen.

Hey, I'd be delighted if it didn't. But the odds are very much against it.

irishproduce

Realistically, single people are up against people who have managed to pair off and settle down the traditional way. Couples buying together ensure the prices remain high.
Might be time to think of matching off with a like minded person.

Hello Moto GP

Tony EH wrote: »

And that's just your opinion.

See how redundant that line is?

You sound terrified that WFH will be taken away from you. I understand that.

Nope my company employs 7,000 and allready have been told we are going hybrid post covid and numerous emails been sent out to all staff on it.

They are also after getting an agency who are going to inspect our home offices to make sure they are suitable working for working from home.

Why would I be worried

The Mighty Quinn

Tony EH wrote: »

We're in a country where most employers think that if you're "working" from home, you're really just **** on the web all day.

Rumbled. It's not all day, just some of the day, I'm not 22 any more ya know.

Get the daily procrasturbation outta the way to clear the mind and focus it

PauloMN

Tony EH wrote: »

On a low scale. A VERY low scale. I should know, I've be doing it years and pre-Covid everyone was jealous of it.

But it won't last in general. We just don't have the trust of employers to allow it to. Padre Pio is entirely correct. We'll see people gradually pulled back into the office. Based largely on bogus reasons of course. But it will still happen.

Hey, I'd be delighted if it didn't. But the odds are very much against it.

Well we'll have to disagree. I've been remote working 3 days a week for 15 years. More and more of my friends in different companies across different industries over that time have gone remote for 3 or 4 days per week. I'd say when I started WFH, I knew only 2 or 3 other people doing so.

Up to just before Covid, probably 50% of my friends are now doing WFH to some degree. Obviously at the moment that's probably around 75%. The rest are generally non-office jobs who can't remote work (teachers, drivers, factory workers, builders, hotel/leisure, healthcare etc.).

It will drop back a little once the pandemic is fully over, as roles which are not really suitable for WFH go back to the office, but the general trend is an increase in WFH for suitable roles, and that's undeniable really.

Tony EH

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

Rumbled. It's not all day, just some of the day, I'm not 22 any more ya know.

Get the daily procrasturbation outta the way to clear the mind and focus it

So long as it's during your lunch hour, I'd say you're grand.

mcmoustache

Tony EH wrote: »

It's certainly understandable. I work from home and have done since before Covid. My wife does now too, but her employer has already started the "we want you back in the office a couple of days a week", despite the fact that she doesn't need to be there at all. Working from home allows you a freedom that's fantastic.

But it's a fantasy that WFH will become the norm for everyone. It's just not going to happen.

And I MOST DEFINITELY would not be thinking of buying a house with that even remotely factored in.

When the company sent around a survey, I opted for 2 days in three from home. Then they sold the Dublin and London offices and changed my contract to a permanent home worker. It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts or our desire to work from home though. Our output is easily quantified as developers and nobody needs to see me in person so I've no doubt that this was purely financial.



That's very specific to my role in that industry though. My partner in the same industry will be going back to work at some point because there's more human-to-human stuff in her role.

Rikand

Everytime we get close to having enough money to own the house we want, the price has gone up. At this point, we're just gonna sit tight and hope that the crash comes soon

Tony EH

mcmoustache wrote: »

When the company sent around a survey, I opted for 2 days in three from home. Then they sold the Dublin and London offices and changed my contract to a permanent home worker. It wasn't out of the goodness of their hearts or our desire to work from home though. Our output is easily quantified as developers and nobody needs to see me in person so I've no doubt that this was purely financial.

That's very specific to my role in that industry though. My partner in the same industry will be going back to work at some point because there's more human-to-human stuff in her role.

The vast majority of people didn't work from home pre Covid and the vast majority of people won't work from home post Covid either.

Frankly, I'd like to see WFH be a permanent situation for everyone. But it's not going to happen. We're still in Covid, so that's a factor. When we're out of it, things will start springing back to the way it was.

I've had a number of people (including the Mrs.) already tell me that their company's have floated the idea of going back in (with the sweetener that it's "only" a couple of days a week). Absolutely nobody is that enthused by the idea. And we're not even out of the Covid woods yet and won't be until next year probably.

When Covid is eventually gone, I have no doubt that we'll see things change.

Green Mile

Amazes me that people think the next recession will mean property prices will fall.
There won’t be a property crash anytime soon. There’s simply no supply to meet demand and demand is growing much faster than people want to believe.
High profile investment managers, investment companies and pension fund managers know this all too well and where are they putting their clients money? Irish property.
Even if the government gave away land to developers for free, gave them tax breaks and physical cash to build, where will they get the skilled labour? Building materials increasing in price is another factor. It’ll take years for supply come around.
If people want to wait for a crash, fair play, it releases some pressure for those who are currently buying.

Padre_Pio

PauloMN wrote: »

Well we'll have to disagree. I've been remote working 3 days a week for 15 years.

Bit of a redundant argument.
When you started WFH, you'd be hard pressed to stream YouTube on the average Irish internet.

WFH will stay for some, hybrid for others, but millions will be pulled back into offices over the next few months. Slowly but surely. People keep referencing MNCs and tech companies, but there are a huge minority of employers in the country.

For every Google and Facebook there's a thousand small companies who need people back in the offices, even if it's to train and oversee new hires, pass on skills etc.

Tony EH wrote: »

I've had a number of people (including the Mrs.) already tell me that their company's have floated the idea of going back in (with the sweetener that it's "only" a couple of days a week). Absolutely nobody is that enthused by the idea. And

Exactly this.
Your company will do what it wants to do. Not what the employees want. I want to live in Spain and work 2 days a week. My employer will tell me to f*ck off and get back to work.

I would encourage anyone making any life decisions to get WFH guaranteed in your contract immediately.

I've started a thread a month back where we're "encouraged" to WFH so the company can downsize their premises which many employees love.

People are talking about buying houses down the country etc, but none of this is set in stone. There's already rumours of 2 days in office a week required.

Hybrid working IMO is the worst of both worlds. You have to live within commutable distance and also give a portion of your home over to office space.

Gekko

Around 2009 when prices were at rock bottom after the crash was the time to buy…if you had the cash - which I didn’t

Prices have rocketed by 25-35% in places in Ireland in the past few years. It’s shocking

Meanwhile inflation is creeping up and people can get no interest - or negative interest if you’re wealthy - on their savings.

Pay doesn’t really seem to be going up either

It’s a triple or even quadruple whammy

Dublin offers very poor value. Compare it to certain parts of the UK, or Lisbon or Berlin, and compare the amenities and quality of life, and rarely if ever does Dublin come out better if you don’t have a specific reason to be there

Other cities and provincial towns much more attractive as long as they had good broadband, even better if they have a train station

Potential-Monke

I had a home once. Could I afford it then (2009)? Not really, but I still got it. I could have afforded the repayments if they didn't nearly double in a few years, but it got to the stage where I had to cut my losses and take the hit, mainly because in order to keep up the repayments, I would have had to rent out a room, and that completely defeats the purpose of having my own house.

I really shouldn't have got it though, there was some very grey area stuff that happened regarding the deposit, as advised by the credit union. Being younger and more carefree, I didn't cop the full extent of what I was doing. I 90% regret buying a house. The house itself was lovely, semi-d with, thankfully, excellent neighbours just slightly older than me. Estate was lovely, 95% owner-occupied and the rest privately rented. No issues, 2 min drive to the "city" centre but because it's across a bridge it was "out of town". Loved it and the freedom of owning you own house. Only took about 12 months for reality to kick in the front door and make itself at home. And 12 months after that it all went downhill from there, mortgage kept going up due to changing from fixed to variable as per contract. Faults started to show themselves, the realisation of all the costs of owning coming in at once... I wasn't prepared. I'm sure even if I knew all this was coming, it wouldn't have mattered.

I loved living there, but in the end I had to sell for my own mental health on top of everything. Unless I could straight up buy a house with no mortgage, I would never buy a house again. Maybe if the mortgage was, for some unknown reason, ~50k, I'd be tempted. I prefer the freedom of renting, but I'm basing that on pre-mortgage as I've been living at home since I had to sell, so I really don't know what the rental market is like right now, and I'm pretty sure I'd have a miserable existence trying to afford it by myself, or having to share. With other people. And I'm 38.

My only hope of having my own place now is when the parents pass, they are leaving me in the house to live as long as my 4 siblings don't mind. And they've all said they don't, and we're a pretty cool family insofar as we don't annoy each other too much. But, all that could go tits up when the allure of €40-60k is there. If that happens, will have to sell because I'm not dealing with family fallout over property. My own amount would be enough for a deposit if some financial institution is stupid enough to offer me a mortgage, but that would mean getting a mortgage in my (hopefully) mid 40's up. What's the point at that stage?!

Burt Renaults

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Single people in Dublin pretty much don't stand a chance. If you're on 60k a year, you'll get a mortgage of 210k. A 30k deposit means you can afford a place that costs 240k. What the fúck can you get in Dublin for that?

A quick search of houses for sale in South County Dublin reveals 169 with asking prices of less than €250,000. Broadening that search to cover all of Dublin (including... urgh... the northside... *vomits*), there are 448 houses for sale for <€250k. Everything from well-built former council houses to Celtic Tiger apartments.

jimmycrackcorm

Padre_Pio wrote:

Why should people compete to buy a place to live? Since when does the build cost of a house have anything to do with the sale price?

Actually the build cost is a very significant part of the cost. If you don't believe me then do as I have done which is find out for insurance purposes how much a rebuild cost is if you have a your house destroyed by fire.

And in the real world, people do compete to buy a place, it's not as if houses get handed out.

HalfAndHalf wrote:

I can’t work out if this is a joke or not?

There was a time when houses were of a reasonable enough price (as they should be) that YOU could buy it as a single applicant. But now that shouldn’t be the case?

No they weren't. My parents house was dirt cheap but their income was poverty line.

HalfAndHalf wrote:

Am I reading this right? So you’re basically saying you were alright but why should anyone else be? That’s just an insane mindset.

I never said anything of the sort. I just questioned why some one considers it an automatic right for a single income earner to own a house. Because that's not the real world. I'm open to correction, but I'd like to see how that works for someone in Dublin on an income of 25k for example...

The DayDream

Nope and I never will.

My parents always rented and we lived in a different country for a while. Nothing about home ownership was ever explained to me growing up. I moved out started renting at 19. When we moved back to Ireland the 08 recession followed quickly.

I've never had the opportunity to save a deposit, everything went to rent and bills and life is expensive. I earn a modest wage and am single, 40, no kids. I can't even afford a 1 BR fkin apartment.

As a kid I never would have imagined an adult with a job would be in this position. Even if I could afford a house I'd be disgusted with what you get for your money here, half a mill for houses where the bedrooms are basically the size of a bed and enough room to walk around the bed, sometimes just one side of the bed, no basement no garage, you still need to have your kitchen double as a laundromat or use the spare room for ironing.

Oh, and theyre all riddled with damp.

The future is going to be even more dystopian. These vulture fund fks are going to build communal living spaces for all the middle aged people like me to live like kids in college dorms.

It's pretty disheartening. If you don't have a well paid job in tech, finance, or medical field you better get coupled up or you're pretty screwed.

Jim2007

The DayDream wrote: »

It's pretty disheartening. If you don't have a well paid job in tech, finance, or medical field you better get coupled up or you're pretty screwed.

The need to own ones home is an anglosphere thing. There are millions of people all over Europe how don’t own their own home, will never own their own home and don’t even have such an objective.

How exactly is a housing policy based on requiring people to take on huge debt or rely on social services to put a roof over one’s head a smart idea?

Convincing people that renting is dead money, it brings no utility or satisfaction was brilliant marketing on the side of the building industry. Of course if you really believed in the concept of dead money, there is a lot more pressing expenditure that the concept should apply to.

Actually if people did apply the concept of dead money to all their expenditure, they might be in a better position to own a house.

Mister Vain

Potential-Monke wrote: »

My only hope of having my own place now is when the parents pass, they are leaving me in the house to live as long as my 4 siblings don't mind.

Same here. I always had a job until Covid. Currently training for a job that would pay more, but even at that I'd only really have enough to afford rent.

galson

I can't, because I can't save for the deposit because I have to pay high rent because me and my family have to live somewhere. Otherwise I'd save for a nice deposit within two years. It's a vicious circle. And depressing really.

mariaalice

I dont think anyone knows the answer more so for a person buying on their own on average salaries.

Those I know who purchased recently were a couple and one spent 3 years living with parents to save for a deposit. They had very average salaries as well.


No one is going to have any sympathy for someone who is picky, won't compromise, has to live in a certain area, or who starts saying it's always better somewhere else.

One of the better commentators on this is Rory Hearne, but even he sometimes goes for the housing market is a free market conspiracy to make fat cats fatter which it is not.

The first person/politician who says it's a very complex issue with no easy answers and someone's going to lose out will get my vote because it's honest.

mariaalice

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/rory-hearne-some-serious-political-noise-needs-to-be-made-if-our-dysfunctional-housing-system-is-to-be-fixed-38539234.html

PauloMN

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Bit of a redundant argument.
When you started WFH, you'd be hard pressed to stream YouTube on the average Irish internet.

WFH will stay for some, hybrid for others, but millions will be pulled back into offices over the next few months. Slowly but surely. People keep referencing MNCs and tech companies, but there are a huge minority of employers in the country.

For every Google and Facebook there's a thousand small companies who need people back in the offices, even if it's to train and oversee new hires, pass on skills etc.

It's not a redundant argument, if you read it in context. The point is the number of people I knew WFH back then compared with just before Covid. Significant increase in numbers. Of course internet speeds have helped, that's one of the driving factors.

As for referencing big tech companies, the point is they tend to set the bar in the industry for employee packages. Other smaller companies will need to offer similar WFH/hybrid working to get employees, it's as simple as that. Companies are struggling to get employees, if they don't offer WFH or hybrid working when they can, they will lose out on employees. For what it's worth, I work in a small company (less than 20 employees) and pre-Covid, probably 90% of the staff were either fully remote or doing 1 to 2 days in the office - so there are small companies offering these things already.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Hybrid working IMO is the worst of both worlds. You have to live within commutable distance and also give a portion of your home over to office space.

It's not so binary though, it's not just a case of a house in a city vs. a house in the arsehole of nowhere. There are plenty of nice towns and villages within commutable distances of bigger towns and cities where jobs are, that will allow for a reasonable commute once or twice per week, with WFH the rest. You can probably get twice the space for the same money in those locations (or a much cheaper house of the same size if money is an issue). It's all about balance. Best of both worlds rather than the worst of both worlds imo, but it all depends on your perspective I suppose.

Skyrimaddict

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Why should people compete to buy a place to live?
Since when does the build cost of a house have anything to do with the sale price?

Since always, any news article about building in Dublin has builders saying its not economical to build houses for less than 350, due to land prices, building costs, fees etc.

I used to work for a larger house builder years ago, and while they add a GOOD chunk onto the sale price, they did also have 30% most building costs in Dublin vs lets say Limerick. I remember back in 2006, a 2 acre plot in Dublin going for 500k, out beyond drumcondra, cant remember the area.

Padre_Pio

Skyrimaddict wrote: »

Since always, any news article about building in Dublin has builders saying its not economical to build houses for less than 350, due to land prices, building costs, fees etc.

I used to work for a larger house builder years ago, and while they add a GOOD chunk onto the sale price, they did also have 30% most building costs in Dublin vs lets say Limerick. I remember back in 2006, a 2 acre plot in Dublin going for 500k, out beyond drumcondra, cant remember the area.

There's your issue then.

Why does a 2 acre site cost 500k?
2 acres of agricultural land costs maybe 25k in Dublin county.

Because the seller knows that if you build 8 houses on it you can make X amount of money.
So the seller prices your potential profit into his sales price.

You take on the risk, the seller profits immediately.

AlmightyCushion

Burt Renaults wrote: »

A quick search of houses for sale in South County Dublin reveals 169 with asking prices of less than €250,000. Broadening that search to cover all of Dublin (including... urgh... the northside... *vomits*), there are 448 houses for sale for <€250k. Everything from well-built former council houses to Celtic Tiger apartments.

Another person who does a quick search and thinks every thing is grand without actually looking at the data. Properties are going way over asking. If you have 240k to buy, you really need to be looking at places around 210k max to allow for bidding to push the price up.

If you look at 210k and under, you are talking about 100 places in all of Dublin. Of that 100, about 6 are sites that would need a significant amount of money to build something on. A few more are student apartments which you can't actually live in and are only for investment so they are out. A couple more are auctions where the AMV is typically advertised very low so usually go over so they are likely out as well. So, that leaves about 90. Of that 90, a lot of the actual places are not great. One is only a 27m squared studio. A lot would either be in pretty bad areas, are small 1 beds (Some, if not all, banks require a 30% deposit for 1 beds) or ages away from the city centre on public transport.