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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    They aren't the Gardaí. They have no mandate to discharge their weapons in a public space, which I'm assuming the location outside of the Barracks' gates would be considered.

    Yes I know that begs the question what is the point of sentries, but really they are there to prevent incursion and the loss of anything sensitive or dangerous on the base itself. As soldiers, without being under specific orders to act as as aid to the civil power, they can't just shoot people. In my view they did the right thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    A life was saved thank goodness.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I would say that if their purpose is to prevent loss to the military, then the chaplain counts as a military asset. In any case, most RoEs generally have 'you may shoot to protect life', without being overly specific as to where.

    Besides, they obviously disagreed that they had no mandate to discharge their weapons, as they apparently did do so. Why they only fired warning shots as opposed to those aimed at a person who may have been in the middle of stabbing a victim (I am reminded of the German cop a few months back who was stabbed and died as his partner hesitated to shoot) is something about which we can only speculate given the wide variety of possibilities to include a possible lack of a clear line of fire due to proximity of the victim.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,619 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Whatever about ROEs a stabbing is as close and personal as you can get , so a clear line of fire may not have been available , and then there's the fact that it's an urban n area , and the lads on sentry duty probably had Styr rifles , the chances of the bullet keeping going even if it did connect with the attacker are pretty high ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Clarke is keen to push that the fact that the army is engaged in deployments to risky locations such the Middle East it is critical that artillery is still a critical part of a military employed on peacekeeping missions.

    when has the Irish army used artillery in peacekeeping operations?, very odd to talk about an all out war vs peacekeeping or even peace enforcement…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    81mms i think are still brought out on overseas missions, AML 60s in the past and the older members of this forum can say weather the 120mm was ever sent over seas. I dont belive the 105s have gone on missions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    ok be prepared, perhaps show that you have them, but when have they been actively used, Jadotville?

    In what peacekeeping situation would they be used?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭RavenP


    A few years ago Ireland wanted to bring heavy weaponry, specifically Javelin missiles, to the Lebanon. Israel objected, officially because they were worried a Javelin might fall into Hezbolah hands, more probably because they do not want to set a precedent where UN forces have as good weaponry as they do. Instead they offered to give any Irish units operating in the area fire support from their 105mm guns. On one occasion the Irish requested the support and received it, which, of course, was billed as the Israeli’s rescuing weak Irish forces in the media. I doubt the army would want to be in that position in the future and would like its own fire support, either missile or arty based. I also doubt that the Israelis would offer it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,665 ✭✭✭rock22


    Asking this out of total ignorance.

    That article says that in Ukraine the artillery has to be more mobile, making single shot and then moving, so to avoid return shot. The pictures show a gun on a carriage. In ww2 there were artillery guns mounted on armoured chassis. I am thinking of the Sturmgeschütz or the Jagdpanzer . Are such designs no longer considered useful ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    it seems peacekeepers would be more likely defending their bases not moving to capture areas as the article describes, really dont know what the russia invasion/war has to do with peacekeeping



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    which occasion, I searched did not find anything, yeah they have the javelins now…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Not all UN deployments are peacekeeping. Some are peace enforcement, which includes engagements of organised hostiles, such as the UN mandated operations in the former Yugoslavia in the mid 1990s.

    And so it would absolute foolishness, neglectful even, for the tacticians of the armies of the World not to be looking closely at how the land war in Ukraine and Russia is evolving, now that the use of field artillery and armour is changing, as supplementary technology including drones and super-accurate counter-battery capability are part of the mix.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭RavenP


    they have had javelins since 2003. It was a Leb deployment 2015-16 ish I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    well for one, have you noticed the massive increase in Russian activities/violence across Africa? Or the overflight of one of our UNFIL bases by Russian helicopters? Or the expansion of non state actors that have vastly increased drone attacks across the globe since the high profile use of “relatively cheap” equipment in the war….


    All of which will influence Peacekeeping/enforcing missions from now on, units/vehicles/bases are going to need counter UAV capabilities at the very least.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    ok but the article was mostly about moving artillery to gain ground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    would like to know which UN missions involved moving artillery to gain ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    it was also about how artillery can be targeted by the systems/threats I mentioned. UN missions always mean compromises about what gets taken and used but I’m sure for operations like Chad having mobile artillery as part of the patrols would have been welcomed if we hadn’t been avoiding such capability for so long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭RavenP


    The situation I mentioned earlier was from 7th September 2014 Irish Independent. Link won’t paste alas. The IDF provided artillery cover Irish and Filipino when pinned down by Islamist fighters. The Israeli’s had offered to provide fire support because they had demanded the Irish did not deploy javelins or arty. Artillery is most definitely needed from time to time in a defensive role even in peacekeeping. Without it many Irish troops would have died.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    No pretty much any modern military has such capabilities whether its just Self Propelled Mortar systems, or tube artillery or rocket systems. We don't cause that would require investing…



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,026 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    IDF credited with saving Irish troops from jihadists on Golan

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-credited-with-saving-irish-troops-from-jihadists-on-golan/

    There were also unconfirmed reports that the IDF fired directly at militant positions during the operation.

    this the same event or was there two?

    Syrian government forces fired artillery rounds from a distance at one point to prevent the Filipino peacekeepers from being overwhelmed by the rebels

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/31/filipino-un-peacekeepers-escape-syrian-militants



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭RavenP


    The first is the incident the second is not the same, but same time period. It does, nevertheless demonstrate that fire support is important in a peacekeeping role and that Ireland should consider deploying artillery and other heavy weaponry in peace keeping as well as for island defence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,619 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    You can really see the worth of javelins in those situation though, the ,the flexibility,portability and smaller logistics train, obviously far far dearer per shot fired , so less likely to fire a couple of warning shots , and obviously way less available shots..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,619 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Although - these days is the day of the expensive Atgm waning (I know horses for courses ) , to be replaced by the cheap , ubiquitous Fpv drones , a few hundred euro per unit , duck tape any RPG war head on to it , even longer range ,

    And you can practice flying it pretty much any where , for negligible cost,

    Pretty scary actually, I know there are jammers and anti-drone weapons, but looking at Ukraine ,Fpv and relatively cheap spotter drones are everywhere and still effective

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    The whole global geopolitical system is fracturing, the 30 year post CW1, America is the only unassailable superpower is ending and we're all going to have to deal with the fallout from that….and that's before we even get to what climate change is going to do. They don't call it the age of perma-crisis for nothing.

    But to get parochial about us, the gov has said repeatedly that we'll continue with PK/PE missions and the most likely area of those is Africa..well it's not 2008 in Chad any more. The day the worst you'd run across is lads on bikes with rusty AKs and a smoke belching T-55 is gone, the whole continent is now awash is russian and more importantly Chinese kit, from FPV to full up fixed wing armed UAS, arty, armour, missiles….M23 fighting in Congo has used guided mortar rounds supplied by the Rwandans..



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Yep, I can see history repeating itself at some point with ill-equipped Irish troops being deployed for a mission and taking causalities, and everyone will happily blame the troops and gloss over the lack of investment/equipment/capabilities even though as you say even a brief look at current/future situations in Africa shows how much firepower is already available to the groups and its only going to get worse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I dunno. Once Wagner appeared in the Sahel, it wasn't too long before UN sponsored presences there by France, Germany and ourselves among others, were abandoned.

    Now while Russian mercenaries may well die back as a powerful entity, I don't think there is any doubt that similar once-removed military contractors with connections to China, Iran, Syria, Nigeria, South Africa and other strategically important States, will become ubiquitous. And that means deployments by any western forces, under a UN mandate or not, will be in the shape of a full fighting force, with air cover, logistical support and state of the art field weapons.

    In fact, the dysfunction of the UN Security Council has become so great, that the likelihood of a UN resolution to authorise any intervention forces in conflict zones, is remote. And so that becomes a moot issue for Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    If I may suggest, now would be a very good time for that UNIFIL evacuation to Cyprus.

    Micheál Martin should start calling Übers, or however one scabs a lift from other nations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    This is interesting, if true.

    In an emergency or crisis situation, procurement and land planning processes can be suspended by the Minister for Defence, and assent of Cabinet etc.

    Now, who is to say what constitutes a crisis or an emergency, is another matter entirely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The DOD is saying why did we put dates down on paper!

    I love the way they say industry moves slow and not the DOD.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    hey nobody matches the DOD for studies and fluff pieces, the industry wishes it was that quick… But seriously, going from an order to hardware operational by 2028 is actually pushing it for anything that has to be built given how far we are likely to be down the list.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Say they are serious and put orders in Jan 25 with straight of the shelf equipment they could turn it around by 28.

    They have nearly 3 years to do it.

    Someone mentioned here before airbus can turnaround a H145 in 12months. Look at the IRCG AW189s they are been turned around in 18 months.

    I am sure a radar system could be got easy enoght and they probably know what they want.

    The Armour replacement. The Mowags upgrade only finished last year so they could swet them a little longer of needs me. Again i am sure they know what they want. Put the order in with no special irish bits and pieces .

    As for the MRV if they dont know what they want at this stage they may throw the towel in!.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're right of course, but its quite evident we're going to be very far down a very long order book, given the World we currently live in.

    If we can get some solutions from partner nations that do the job, even on an interim basis, its worth pursuing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    I think they know what they want, they just know they don’t want to pay for it… but yeah if things aren’t ordered within 6 months between the GE and timeframes forget 2028.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Perhaps we need to move to a higher LOA…EG: rename the A/C to the Irish Air and SPACE Force? As in "watch this space…we might buy a few more propellor air craft in ten years time"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 376 ✭✭vswr


    knowing the DOD…. we'll probably invest in a load of high altitude weather balloons



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    As we know Leonardo made a submission that would kit us out with everything we need but i wonder would one of are fellow EU partners make us a simlar offer as apart from Italy,Germany and France could also supply us with everything we need. It would be a large payment but there could be good terms and condtions for the sale.

    More than likely we will buy from all over the EU to keep everyone happy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    yeah pretty much any of the major nations could supply us with everything for LoA2/3 and to be honest many of them would likely be willing to give us credit arrangements if we were willing to make a commitment. Realistically I can see us being European if no other reason than optics in the current climate, as you say it would make sense to go for one nation and tie it their economy of scales.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster




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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    some attention given to the recent DOD review

    https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/08/30/at-europes-atlantic-edge-ireland-to-focus-on-undersea-monitoring/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That article doesn't seem very accurate to me…the little inshore cutters bought on the cheap from NZ are only for operation in the Irish Sea. No role they are capable of doing year round on protecting cables off the west coast…..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Get ready for the most expensive transport helicopter known to man. If the UK go with the contract Leonardo will be laughing all the way to the bank

    https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/airbus-helicopters-and-sikorsky-walk-away-from-uk-nmh-contest-at-11th-hour/159793.article



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    at this stage surely they will cancel the program? Otherwise as you say Leonardo will do themselves an injury laughing so much.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,619 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Have Leonardo already put in a bid ?

    Leonardo were always going to get that contract , because of their factory in Taunton ?

    Britain's plan for a single type of medium helicopter , and the economies of scale of a single large order seems to be falling apart ,

    Military inflation ,( well everything inflation) and delays are eroding how many helicopters they can get for their billions , and they've already started singing seperate contracts for helicopters ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,913 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Leonardo have put a bid in but it is not straight forward as figures have to be agreed. If the UK dont pull the plug there could be a good deal to be had by the Irish state as us going in with the UK and ordering several units could bring down the overall price and save the programme. But weather we want to be getting in bed with them is a different story.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're getting about 30 steps ahead here.

    First, we have procurement obligations the UK doesn't have. Second, we are in an entirely different market and economic place to them. Third, has anyone said we are in the market for the 149?

    A cursory Top Trumps glance at the offerings shows the H175M to be the better machine, in my opinion.

    Post edited by Larbre34 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I am Dohville. I remember Michael Heseltine standing up to government and party to keep the factory and jobs going.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It had little to do with jobs especially, as there type chosen was to be built in the UK in any case.

    The affair had far more to do with factions of the Tory party, especially within the Tory cabinet, led by Thatcher on one side, and Heseltine on the other, trying to use the helicopter industry as a pawn to topple one another.

    It very nearly took out Thatcher, but ultimately Leon Brittan was sacrificed and Heseltine ended up resigning in grandstanding fashion.

    In the end, Sikorsky and Fiat acquired stakes in Westland and it ultimately ended up in Leonardo, via Finmeccanica. It still produces Lynx, Wildcat and Merlin helicopters at Yeovil to this day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 256 ✭✭mupper2


    Army Ranger Wing soldiers win international special forces sniping competition

    The Army Ranger Wing team won the competition held in eastern Europe beating 26 other elite units

    18:00, 2 SEP 2024

    The Irish ARW operators defeated elite special forces soldiers from 26 other countries. (Image: Defence Forces/Óglaigh na hÉireann)

    These soldiers from Ireland's elite military unit have beaten off stiff competition from other special forces teams to win an international sniping contest.

    The Irish Mirror has learned that a team from the Army Ranger Wing came first in the competition held in eastern Europe – beating 26 other elite units along the way.

    The Special Operations Tactical Sniper Competition, held in Latvia last month, is reserved for so-called tier one units – each country’s most elite and secretive unit.

    READ MORE: Irish peacekeepers in Lebanon safe after Israeli air strikes says Tanaiste Micheal Martin

    READ MORE: Soldiers and sailors can keep working until 62 after changes to mandatory retirement age

    The Defence Forces declined to say what other units faced off against the ARW in the five day competition, but confirmed they were from the United States, Canada and Europe.

    The competition took place in Latvia (Image: Defence Forces/Óglaigh na hÉireann)

    But tier one units from those areas include the US Navy Seals and Delta Force, the Joint Task Force in Canada, Britain’s SAS, the 1st Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment of France and the Divers and Raiders Grouping of the Italian Navy. In the competition, The ARW team were involved in complex, real world scenarios that tested their skills and teamwork of each team – during the day and at night.

    Competition was stiff, but the Irish ARW came first. (Image: Defence Forces/Óglaigh na hÉireann)

    It’s the first time the ARW has won the demanding exemption and Defence Forces bosses were delighted b the result. A spokesman said: “The ARW team's outstanding performance not only highlights their exceptional training and dedication but also establishes a benchmark for excellence in international military standards.

    “This victory is a testament to the rigorous training and commitment of the ARW, and afforded them the opportunity to demonstrate their capabilities alongside some of the best special operations forces in the world.

    The ARW operators were tested in complex, real life scenarios. (Image: Defence Forces/Óglaigh na hÉireann)

    “The success of the ARW team at this competition underscores the importance of continuous development and adaptation in military training, ensuring that personnel are well-prepared to meet the evolving challenges in the current security landscape.”

    The spokesman also said the result was a significant milestone for the ARW. He said: “This achievement not only enhances the reputation of the Army Ranger Wing but also contributes to strengthening international military partnerships.

    “As the ARW continues to engage in competitive events and collaborative training, this victory serves as a significant milestone in their ongoing mission to uphold the highest standards of operational excellence.”

    The ARW is the Defence Forces' most elite unit - and its men are on call 24 hours a day. The unit, based in Co Kildare, is on standby every single day of the year to respond to any crisis that may arise anywhere in the state as aid to gardai. That could mean hostage rescue, undercover surveillance of dissident republican terrorists - or even protecting VIPs, like the Queen when she visited Ireland in 2011.

    But the unit is also active abroad in more traditional military roles and has seen service in Somalia, Liberia, Chad and East Timor and Mali. And in 2021 it sent operators to Afghanistan to rescue more than 200 Irish citizens from the chaos of Kabul Airport.

    The ARW risked their lives in 2021 to rescue Irish citizens from Kabul

    Its highly trained soldiers are experts in guerrilla warfare, marksmanship, hostage rescue, parachuting and long range patrolling.
    They have access to a wide range of weapons, including the Heckler and Koch HK416 assault rifle, the Minimi machine gun - and even the Javelin anti armour missile.

    Around 40 soldiers try to pass ARW selection every year, but less than a dozen pass the gruelling process that sees them allowed into the unit - and wear the coveted green beret that marks them out as a Fianoglach, or Ranger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Interesting nugget in the article on the 4 helicopter pilots in the Sunday Times, that the primary radar buy is due to enter “acquisition stage” next month, has that been confirmed elsewhere?

    https://www.thetimes.com/article/a037df72-af35-44fe-973f-fe123113ef7f?



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