Interesting articles

irishrgr

Saw this in todays IT:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/defence-forces-struggling-to-find-volunteers-for-peacekeeping-missions-1.4611303

I find it an interesting insight into the culture of the Irish military that missions are in doubt due to a lack of volunteers and there is pushback at people being ordered to go. Isn't being told what to do an essential part of the military? Fascinating.

That along with watching the submissions of the representative associations gives an impression its all about working hours & pay, issues of national defense, policy and long term viability of the forces are taking second place to complaining about lack of allowances.

While I agree completely the pay & conditions are ****e & should be improved, if you wanted a 40 hour week with OT & bankers hours, maybe the forces shouldn't have been your first choice.

Pay & conditions are important (morale & retention), but reforming the relationship with the DoD & Minister are too and that's not getting any traction. As we say over here "we're certainly doing a good job admiring the problem".

This one is a longer read, but a very good analysis of the neutrals in Europe as it relates to collective defense.

https://ecfr.eu/publication/ambiguous-alliance-neutrality-opt-outs-and-european-defence/

Great read on the different EU states & the issue of neutrality. Makes me not want to be in Austria :-)

Manic Moran

Dohvolle wrote: »

Lack of Volunteers?
Nobody can do 2 deployments back to back, that is what is currently being asked.
The issue also is current deployments no longer have leave due to covid, and include a period of quarantine before deployment, and further quarantine on return. The return of numerous recent deployments have also been further delayed due to admin issues that are not the fault of the uniforms on the ground.
The prospect of a 6 month overseas trip taking a total of 8 months appeals to few. That, as they say is not what they signed up for.
They are soldiers, sailors and aircrew. Not slaves.

As someone who did a 16 month deployment and a 12 month deployment (including spin-up/down time, but away from home regardless), I don’t have much sympathy for that argument. It’s the job. Granted, I did get some leave (17 days) in the 16 month jaunt. The only time I was asked to volunteer was when I raised my hand to join the military in the first place.

That isn’t to say that soldiers don’t deserve predictability. A reliable “dwell time” became a target for the US Army over a decade ago precisely to reduce stress on the home. Hopefully the Irish troops being ordered to go were selected with a priority towards “when was the last time you went overseas”, but griping about being ordered if that’s true seems to be a bit misplaced.

That doesn’t deny that the DF may not be sufficiently manned for sustaining the current level of operations and that either the politicians need to reduce commitments or increase recruiting precisely so that servicemen can maintain some predictability, but if the culture is one of “filling out missions with volunteers”, then that needs to be taken away. The politicians also need to be able to know reliably what the Army can do before making commitments.

I thought there was a change in Irish contracts a couple years ago removing the soldier’s choice with respect to overseas missions anyway, wasn’t there? Will this problem not partially resolve itself as soldiers under the old contracts leave the service?

Larbre34

Some innovative manpower thinking is required now.

The DF should open up recruitment to applicants at least 10 years older than they do now. I know of some people myself, that with some money already behind them and family set up that would relish 5 years of DF service, for what it can do for their personal development. That should include a certain ratio of officer cadet entry.

Work should be done with the third level bodies to establish a Reserve Officer Training Corps, embedding a DF community presence as an option to experience for all young people. This should extend to apprenticeships and the trades.

As a nation, we need to look at the idea of national service. Not all necessarily military, as there is a huge need in the wider community, but to my mind all young people should put in a year or two of service before age 30, leading to a greater pool of trained reserves to integrate into the long term RDF.

Signore Fancy Pants

irishrgr wrote: »

I find it an interesting insight into the culture of the Irish military that missions are in doubt due to a lack of volunteers and there is pushback at people being ordered to go. Isn't being told what to do an essential part of the military? Fascinating.

Firstly, it's not a "culture".

Secondly, it's not as black and white as the article suggests. There are a number of issues leading to it being slow to fill vacancies. Here is a non exhaustive list, in no order.

1. The pool of personnel (regular and specialist) is getting smaller in general.
2. Troops being mandatorily selected for overseas service (in general) are ones who have volunteered to travel before and in a lot of cases, are not home that long.
3. The covid issue of an extra 2 week form up for quarantine purposes and no mission leave is not attractive for some.
4. Others may wish to complete career or other specific courses which clash with deployment dates.
5. Others have family responsibilities which are the priority at hand, specifically if they are not back that long.
6. Some are sick to the teeth of serving in the same mission area and have zero interest in spending 4 months training to go to the same boring sh1thole for another 6 months.
7. There's also situations where guys have not been recommended for previous deployments, decided to start a family, then 6 months later been mandatorily selected (as they haven't served recently) Timing can be an issue.
8. The selection process, which I won't go into, is also flawed.

Thirdly, it's a bit of spin being used to highlight the retention issues.

Personally, I completed 3 stints in a 3 year period. I also know some who have completed 18 months straight.

It really is mainly specialist appointments that are mandatorily selected, as the pool is small. "Refusing" to travel is not a widespread culture. Staffing and timing is the issue.

Signore Fancy Pants

Manic Moran wrote: »

As someone who did a 16 month deployment and a 12 month deployment (including spin-up/down time, but away from home regardless), I don’t have much sympathy for that argument. It’s the job.

The US is a different machine Mac, you know that yourself. We have trips of 3, 4 and 6 month duration as well as 1, 2 and 3 year posting, albeit with regular leave entitlements.

The requirements for US troops to deploy are vastly different than IRL.

In general, the universal attitude here is, "if you are due to travel, then you travel", otherwise someone is getting caught out of turn.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hopefully the Irish troops being ordered to go were selected with a priority towards “when was the last time you went overseas”, but griping about being ordered if that’s true seems to be a bit misplaced.

There' very few being mandatorily selected that have not recently deployed. In general, its people who are back 12-18 months.

However, I know a guy who was only home from a 6 month deployment 3 weeks before he was sent on another one.

Most guys are eager and willing to travel, some become less so when they are only back 6 or so months.

Manic Moran wrote: »

I thought there was a change in Irish contracts a couple years ago removing the soldier’s choice with respect to overseas missions anyway, wasn’t there? Will this problem not partially resolve itself as soldiers under the old contracts leave the service?

Yep, everyone is contractually obliged to volunteer for overseas service.

Stovepipe

People were forced to go overseas, plain and simple, in a fashion that Gardai or Civil Servants wouldn't tolerate in the slightest. Their unions would be all over it and it would die a swift death and the CS responsible would find himself exiled to some dusty department in a backwater. People who signed up for the five year contract were told that overseas service was required as part of the contract,from day 1 , word 1,so moaning about it is a bit pointless,BUT, the DF inserted it's shoe in it's mouth by using coercion,ie,no chance of promotion unless you had done at least one Lebanon (insert name of ****hole here),no chance of getting a second 5 yr contract unless you did a tour and no chance of getting Trade related courses unless..etc,etc. So, coercion outside of the contract,plain and simple. The whole reason of using such inherent coercion, despite it being a UN requirement that all participating personnel are genuine volunteers, is being people got heartily fed up of doing Leb trips or being denied promotion despite promises that a trip overseas would get a person promoted and basically, being leaned upon by a considerably better paid hierarchy and as a result, the number of actual volunteers evaporated. And, with the greatest of respect for Manic Moran, the US military is not a fair comparison as every joiner knows that overseas service is part of the deal, even when America is not actively fighting in a war anywhere. The US Military is a global force and every schoolkid in the US knows this from early on...................Clearly the DF and the DoD are not paying attention to what is being said in exit interviews.

irishrgr

Good responses all right, and I'll agree, a short paper article rarely can get the nuance. And like Moran above, I too ended up on one of those extensions, being the fortunate company commander who got to tell the team "I know we're mostly packed and ready to go, but, we're unpacking and we're staying, we've been extended". Less than four weeks to go.....the troops were not impressed. I get it.

And I've done the back to back tours, I think it's something like for the 20 years we've ben married, between one thing and another with the Army, Mrs Irishrgr and I have been apart a cumulative total of something like 8 years. It sucks, and I'm a reservist too!!! Many of my active duty friends were deploying every none months for a year for nearly five years, it's exhausting and we lost a lot of talented leaders who just left post contract, just worn out.
And our specialty units are in the same boat (SF, EOD, Tech, Pilots) are worn out too, its never ending for them.

I'll grant ya, the US is NOT Ireland with the level of global commitments, and that is a fair point.

My fear is the various representative organizations (to me at least) are coming across as "whiny" about pay/European working time thing/not being allowed to unionize and less about the larger policy issues. This allows the govt of the day to had out some pay raises/allowances and say "see, we gave yous something, even had a commission", say "we support the troops" and ignore the larger strategic/policy issues which will continue to linger. (like the CoS not reporting to the Minister or controlling the budget).

Don't get me wrong, the pay scales are atrocious, more so given the hatchet the DF took in the recession and must be addressed. I just hope the troops arn't fobbed off with some short term gains and miss the opportunity to tackle larger issues. I don't agree that a deployment is a promotion requirement, but if I'm looking at candidates one one has real operational experience, and the other hasn't, it makes a simple choice all things being equal.

As said above, it's fairer to start at the bottom of the list and send those guys/gals, but if its a list which keeps getting shorter, then its part of the larger resource & policy problem.

Stovepipe

some of the overseas tours make sense, an officer or NCO getting time on an actual operational deployment can only be good but when an AC techie or a pilot is taken out of his environment and finds himself manning a bar in a UNIFIL mess or sitting in a container for four months in Western Sahara and when they get home, their hierarchy complains about unavailability of aircraft or pilots for domestic tasks. Well,you can't have it both ways. The AC complains about lack of manpower yet the system insist that they go abroad.

Stovepipe

A friend of mine is one of the top medical doctors in the DF and he is routinely asked to deploy overseas, despite being well over the age limit, but there have been times when he has to go as the DF is finding it very hard to recruit medical staff of all trades and grades. The Dod is simply going to have to dig deep, to sustain even a basic medical standard.

Signore Fancy Pants

irishrgr wrote: »

Good responses all right, and I'll agree, a short paper article rarely can get the nuance. And like Moran above, I too ended up on one of those extensions, being the fortunate company commander who got to tell the team "I know we're mostly packed and ready to go, but, we're unpacking and we're staying, we've been extended". Less than four weeks to go.....the troops were not impressed. I get it.

And I've done the back to back tours, I think it's something like for the 20 years we've ben married, between one thing and another with the Army, Mrs Irishrgr and I have been apart a cumulative total of something like 8 years. It sucks, and I'm a reservist too!!! Many of my active duty friends were deploying every none months for a year for nearly five years, it's exhausting and we lost a lot of talented leaders who just left post contract, just worn out.
And our specialty units are in the same boat (SF, EOD, Tech, Pilots) are worn out too, its never ending for them.

I'll grant ya, the US is NOT Ireland with the level of global commitments, and that is a fair point.

My fear is the various representative organizations (to me at least) are coming across as "whiny" about pay/European working time thing/not being allowed to unionize and less about the larger policy issues. This allows the govt of the day to had out some pay raises/allowances and say "see, we gave yous something, even had a commission", say "we support the troops" and ignore the larger strategic/policy issues which will continue to linger. (like the CoS not reporting to the Minister or controlling the budget).

Don't get me wrong, the pay scales are atrocious, more so given the hatchet the DF took in the recession and must be addressed. I just hope the troops arn't fobbed off with some short term gains and miss the opportunity to tackle larger issues. I don't agree that a deployment is a promotion requirement, but if I'm looking at candidates one one has real operational experience, and the other hasn't, it makes a simple choice all things being equal.

As said above, it's fairer to start at the bottom of the list and send those guys/gals, but if its a list which keeps getting shorter, then its part of the larger resource & policy problem.

Yeah I agree with everything you say and it may seem whiny when the representative associations are campaigning for better pay and allowances.

However, they are only a voice and have almost zero sway and no power behind them. The issue is the disconnect and risk aversion by the DOD which severely limits DF leadership, organisational change and forward progression. The representative associations have no say in policy issues, the only drum the can realistically bang, is the pay drum.

If the pay and pension disparity was resolved, people would stay in the service and there would be less issues with mandatory selection etc. There's a reason people are only aware of it now. Although, staffing would also solve the issues. If troops were not doing the job of 4 troops for the pay of 1, that would ease discontent.

Irish soldiers want to soldier (as much as Ireland Inc will allow) but the social contract between the DF and the soldier has been damaged over the last 10-15 years. To be honest, giving someone and extra €2,000 a year is not going to solve it.

There has been numerous independent reports, white papers, recommendations etc without tangible outcomes. The troops are always fobbed off. For what its worth, I do my bit and the hand is always up and I'm not a fan of the EU WTD.

Strategic leadership are good at promotional rhetoric but fall flat when words don't translate to change.

There is no incentive for new soldiers to stay, there's almost zero long term future for them. Older soldiers (me included) are eyeing up exit strategies. Some due to malcontent with the organisation, some for better financial prospects.

On the tie between deployments and promotion, yeah its a thing here.

Manic Moran

Dohvolle wrote: »

Did you complete those deployments in a 36 month period? Was your return delayed by up to 6 weeks for reasons outside your command's control?
If 25% of our organisation are overseas at any one time, this being the case another 25% are just back, while 25% are being asked to deploy in the next trip. The Other 25% are merely waiting to be told/volunteer. Somewhere in between that you must fit in time for career courses, regimental duties and normal day to day admin. Doing so in the knowledge you are doing the job of 3 or 4 people due to the ongoing staffing issues, which have yet to be resolved substantially.

No, we had it a bit worse.

For about four or five years, the US was running 15 months deployed, 12 months at home for its full-timers, and that was the general force. Speciality units (particularly SOF and MPs) were far more likely to be on deployment than not. There were also some poor unfortunate sods who completed a deployment in one unit, then rotated (routinely) to another unit, which it turned out was just about to go out the door. And, yes, career courses, family time, admin stuff, all had to be done in the small amount of time available at home station.

Perhaps you remember this event from 2006? https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2318989&page=1
Then came word from the Pentagon that they would not be going home and that their tour had been extended by at least four more months.

The most wrenching part: that some of the soldiers had already gone home.

More than 300 of the 4,000 in the brigade were already home with their families. Now the Army says those soldiers will be flown back to Baghdad later this week to rejoin the rest of their unit.

The solution which they came up with was the ARFORGEN cycle, from 2009. the goal was to try to get the troops deployed only one year out of three. It was expected that they might achieve that by 2011.
https://www.army.mil/article/30668/arforgen_armys_deployment_cycle_aims_for_predictability

We actually have a working cycle now.

The gist is that when you get home, you enter a reset cycle, where you are less tasked, can do your career/skill courses, and the like, get new equipment. Then you get a trainup cycle, preparing you and the unit for the next deployment. Then you're on a mission cycle. If the Army needs you, you deploy. If the army doesn't need you, congratulations, you just did a lot of training, go back into the reset cycle. For the record, I'm currently just in a mission cycle, but the deployment was cancelled, so either they redirect us somewhere else, or I am sitting pretty for the next couple of years.

Everyone benefits. The senior leadership have a reliable basis to know what their capabilities are and how many people can be sent overseas, and the soldiers have the time and predictability to manage their lives and careers.

I'm in the same boat as Irishrgr. After 20 years, I've racked up about 7 away from home. As a reservist. It's not what was in the recruiting pitch back in 2000. but it's the job. If I don't like it, I can quit.

Frankly, I've always considered the Irish policy of forming units specifically for deployment to be a bit odd, and it seems to me it destroys a lot of the cohesion which comes from being in a unit in the first place.

Larbre34

Extract below from the State of the European Union address given by President Von der Leyen to the Parliament today.

Its quite clear that Defence policy is going to be a live issue in this Country for the foreseeable future, driven by both internal and external factors.

"Witnessing events unfold in Afghanistan was profoundly painful for all the families of fallen servicemen and servicewomen.

We bow to the sacrifice of those soldiers, diplomats and aid workers who laid down their lives.

To make sure that their service will never be in vain, we have to reflect on how this mission could end so abruptly.

There are deeply troubling questions that allies will have to tackle within NATO.

But there is simply no security and defence issue where less cooperation is the answer. We need to invest in our joint partnership and to draw on each side's unique strength.

This is why we are working with Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg on a new EU-NATO Joint Declaration to be presented before the end of the year.

But this is only one part of the equation.

Europe can – and clearly should – be able and willing to do more on its own. But if we are to do more, we first need to explain why. I see three broad categories.

First, we need to provide stability in our neighbourhood and across different regions.

We are connected to the world by narrow straits, stormy seas and vast land borders. Because of that geography, Europe knows better than anyone that if you don't deal in time with the crisis abroad, the crisis comes to you.

Secondly, the nature of the threats we face is evolving rapidly: from hybrid or cyber-attacks to the growing arms race in space.

Disruptive technology has been a great equaliser in the way power can be used today by rogue states or non-state groups. 

You no longer need armies and missiles to cause mass damage. You can paralyse industrial plants, city administrations and hospitals – all you need is your laptop. You can disrupt entire elections with a smartphone and an internet connection.

The third reason is that the European Union is a unique security provider. There will be missions where NATO or the UN will not be present, but where the EU should be.

On the ground, our soldiers work side-by-side with police officers, lawyers and doctors, with humanitarian workers and human rights defenders, with teachers and engineers.

We can combine military and civilian, along with diplomacy and development – and we have a long history in building and protecting peace.

The good news is that over the past years, we have started to develop a European defence ecosystem.

But what we need is the European Defence Union.

In the last weeks, there have been many discussions on expeditionary forces. On what type and how many we need: battlegroups or EU entry forces.

This is no doubt part of the debate – and I believe it will be part of the solution.

But the more fundamental issue is why this has not worked in the past.

You can have the most advanced forces in the world – but if you are never prepared to use them - of what use are they? 

What has held us back until now is not just a shortfall of capacity – it is the lack of political will.

And if we develop this political will, there is a lot that we can do at EU level.

Allow me to give you three concrete examples:

First, we need to build the foundation for collective decision-making – this is what I call situational awareness.

We fall short if Member States active in the same region, do not share their information on the European level. It is vital that we improve intelligence cooperation.

But this is not just about intelligence in the narrow sense.

It is about bringing together the knowledge from all services and all sources. From space to police trainers, from open source to development agencies. Their work gives us a unique scope and depth of knowledge.

It is out there!

But we can only use that, to make informed decisions if we have the full picture. And this is currently not the case. We have the knowledge, but it is disjoined. Information is fragmented.

This is why the EU could consider its own Joint Situational Awareness Centre to fuse all the different pieces of information. 

And to be better prepared, to be fully informed and to be able to decide.

Secondly, we need to improve interoperability. This is why we are already investing in common European platforms, from fighter jets, to drones and cyber.

But we have to keep thinking of new ways to use all possible synergies. One example could be to consider waiving VAT when buying defence equipment developed and produced in Europe.

This would not only increase our interoperability, but also decrease our dependencies of today.

Third, we cannot talk about defence without talking about cyber. If everything is connected, everything can be hacked. Given that resources are scarce, we have to bundle our forces. And we should not just be satisfied to address the cyber threat, but also strive to become a leader in cyber security.

It should be here in Europe where cyber defence tools are developed. This is why we need a European Cyber Defence Policy, including legislation on common standards under a new European Cyber Resilience Act.

So, we can do a lot at EU level. But Member States need to do more too.

This starts with a common assessment of the threats we face and a common approach to dealing with them. The upcoming Strategic Compass is a key process of this discussion.  

And we need to decide how we can use all of the possibilities that are already in the Treaty.

This is why, under the French Presidency, President Macron and I will convene a Summit on European defence.

It is time for Europe to step up to the next level."

roadmaster

In the article below it notes that Defence Forces are taking Javlins with them overseas. How will they be deployed. Will they be mounted to the roof of an apc or fixed to an outpost?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2021/10/19/better-safe-than-sorry-irish-peacekeepers-are-bringing-javelin-missiles-on-lebanon-deployment/amp/

roadmaster

Its wonder we never bring the 105 overseas, it would pack a goid punch and as a last resort a good anti tank weapon

Larbre34

Makes sense to bring the javelin system. When even local paramilitaries are well tooled up with standoff weapons, theres no point trying to take them on without the best gear. Field guns are just too cumbersome for a highly mobile peace keeping force, dealing with scattered and sporadic situations.

roadmaster

Which begs the question do we need the 105 and should we even bother replacing it when its time up. We would be better of with a 105 mounted on a mowag if anything

Larbre34

I agree. With the missions the Irish Defence Forces are going to be tasked with, towed artillery pieces are largely redundant if you have a decent cavalry and mechanised infantry. Can't see us laying siege to any towns anytime soon.

Its also becoming increasingly dangerous to operate big field guns. With even subversives and rebel type groups acquiring guided weapons, the ability to scoot and shoot becomes more important, especially for peace enforcement and force protection.

A few of these would be a nice addition to the artillery locker all the same. Modern German 155mm panzer howitzer

Larbre34

No print article available to post yet, but Sky News are reporting that an F-35 off of HMS Queen Elizabeth crashed into the Mediterranean this morning. The pilot ejected, though it doesn't say safely or otherwise.

Presumably this is a US Marine Corps aircraft because AFAIK they are the only airwing embarked on said Carrier to date.

At $80 million a pop, the operators of F-35 aren't going to be thrilled if such losses start mounting up.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118181430#Comment_118181430

Nah, the U.K. jets have been onboard as well, it was one of them that went down.

sparky42

Some more info on what happened (take off issues) and the current steps being taken to find an secure the wreck:

https://twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1461640897079226378

Larbre34

Yeah the worry is that the Russians might have just the gear to go after it.

Just the one wing of the RN Fleet Air Arm embarked at the time apparently, 8 aircraft.

Larbre34

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/11/20/europe/european-union-security-analysis-intl-cmd/index.html

********************

Larbre34

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40751805.html

Mick Malone going on something of a solo-run, asserting that the NS will have a minimum of 12 ships and a Surface to Air, Surface to Surface and Surface to Subsurface capability.

roadmaster

In Regards to the below article about the 139's door falling off. Not blaming the normal guards but why had they not the landing area in the park secure or where they even requested to secure the area?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/door-falls-off-air-corps-helicopter-after-public-distract-crew-41049137.html

Larbre34

I've seen AC helis on air ambulance duty land and take off from that pitch behind the cricket pavilion in the Phoenix Park many times.

I've only ever seen the helicopter and an ambulance or two on scene and never seen any member of the public there come close to interfering with any of them. Sure, they do get passing interest from people out walking, but never such that crowd control was required, so I would imagine requesting Garda support to secure the landing site is just never done.

I can only assume that the issue arose here because of it being in May 2020, when the first lockdown was in place and the Phoenix Park was absolutely packed with people every day, as I frequently saw. Some sort of collective hysteria must have overtaken whatever people were there that day, such that they didn't know better than to interfere in what was quite obviously a patient transfer.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233329#Comment_118233329

And has been ignored by everyone since then…

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118234656#Comment_118234656

Accept we know the Shaw wasn't really planned as a purchase, but more of an opportunity buy with other factors in play, I wonder if there wasn't a Brexit vote at the time would she have been ordered? More over if anyone was paying attention to that plan surely the first step would be the increasing of the NS manpower first?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235539#Comment_118235539

Even if we didn’t have the manpower losses, the establishment figures weren’t enough for 9 ships let alone more, yet there’s still no intention to increase that, so again I don’t see any suggestion that there is any official support or knowledge of a plan to grow the NS.

Larbre34

Such an issue, though, is a policy matter for civil authority of the day, not the F.O., or even the General Staff.

I'd love to know where the notion of 12 even comes from. Even if everything being considered for acquisition at the moment arrived tomorrow, it would be a net gain of Zero, with Eithne and the Peacocks making way for a MRV and two Lake-class CPVs. I can't imagine the Flag is considering the enhanced harbour security boats in his calculation.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240356#Comment_118240356

The 12 ship figure most likely dates back to the study in the 90s.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240925#Comment_118240925

Where has there been any official comment/statement about a second MRV?

Larbre34

Exactly. The concept of the first MRV is only now being explored by naval architects advising the Government.

I don't recall any mention at any time about a second.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243086#Comment_118243086

No, the concept has been around since before the Crash, with various names/potential designs. The details of what it might mean is perhaps only now being narrowed down however, a second hull however... That's about a half a billion in capital alone, add in the costs of helicopters for such a buy, that's coming up to a billion. And both services are **** out off people...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244129#Comment_118244129

To be blunt though, what was said coming up on 20 years ago in no way suggests that there is or even was a firm intention to purchase a second MRV hull, nor is there any suggestion of the Capital Budget having the capacity for another €200+ million purchase, I say 200 million as I can't see a MRV coming in south of €150m even as bare bones as it might be.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245552#Comment_118245552

The Commission says that and it will be ignored and the report dropped in the shredder. Just as previous reviews/reports etc have been, pinning hopes on the Commission being a magic bullet is foolhardy imo, it will do nothing to change the political or public position on spending on defence. And given build rates it will be 20 years since the MRV was talked about before she is in service and even longer if there was a second one.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246033#Comment_118246033

Given that nothing at all will change until 2023 (as it will have to be the next budget at best before anything changes)2 even if the Government was willing to take the political hit in increasing defence spending, not too mention the question of whether the current government will still be around by then, hopping for something in 2022 is a bit of a forlorn hope anyway. I mean did you see one of the Senators standing up declaring no Irish company should be involved in the defence sector last week?

Larbre34

The breathtaking naivety.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248532#Comment_118248532

Willful Stupidity rather than naivety imo...

Larbre34

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40757157.html

This is dumb altogether.

TLDR: All alcohol to be banned in camp in the Lebanon deployment, following an alleged assault, suspected to have been fuelled by alcohol.

There are 400 odd people on tour there, all of which have been subjected to the additional pressures of Covid on their deployments and their family lives.

I'm going to assume 99+% of them are well able to enjoy a beer or two and control themselves. Besides if they try and ban alcohol in just one DF camp, home or abroad, they're going to have a problem.

What this is, is an indictment of the battalion command and the MP contingent therein. If they can't effectively manage one or two incidents of trouble within the Unit, through loss of privileges or the application of appropriate military law, without demoralising 400 other adults,they shouldn't have the job.

The Black Oil

Really good piece on the Naval Service Diving Section.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/ireland-s-naval-divers-people-think-of-coral-reefs-military-diving-is-a-different-beast-1.4736370

Larbre34

If the description of the draft report, as having not met the mandate in clear and unambiguous terms, then the backlash appears warranted, especially if there is genuine disagreement among the members on that exact point.

The report should be delayed until its shortcomings are replaced with clear recommendations and it is fit to publish.

Larbre34

Extracts from letter to Irish Times from retired Lt Colonel Joe Ahern, published today:

It is disappointing that the draft report of the Commission on the Defence Forces falls far short of realistically addressing the problems facing the Defence Forces.

It is a happy coincidence that the letter from Denis J Halliday, former UN Assistant Secretary General, quoting Major General Maureen O’Brien on the shortcomings in Defence Forces' capabilities should appear in the same edition of the paper. It leaves some room for hope that the commission states that their work is ongoing....

I’d suggest taking extra time to get it right would be a good option for the commission because an inadequate report will inflict inestimable further damage on an already badly wounded organisation.

sparky42

The commission is pushed back until the new year according to their latest tweet, must have got some strong push back…

https://twitter.com/irlcodf/status/1471878541704929280?s=21

Larbre34

Too priceless a response not to post.

sparky42

Though it's behind a Paywall, the Times is suggesting that the Commission may not even be able to produce a Unanimous report, and the possibility of a Minority counter report.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118348880#Comment_118348880

The below is taken from the article you speak off. Nothing to worry about😬

The commission sent draft versions to senior officials in the Department of Defence and Defence Forces in November. Civilian and military officials believed the draft did not adequately address the commission’s terms of reference.

They described the report as vague and contradictory in places, including in relation to Army command structures, the future of the Defence Forces’ headquarters and future interactions between civilian and military officials.

The Defence Forces’ criticisms were the most severe and included complaints about a lack of focus on developing future capabilities and a lack of ambition on how to address the retention crisis

Larbre34

Fun little story coming out of the 30 year State Papers release.

John Major was invited to Dublin for talks with Albert Reynolds towards the end of 1991. The security plan involved flying him from Baldonnell directly to Government Buildings in a British Army Westland Wessex and landing on the helicopter pad on the roof of the Dept of An Taoiseach (which is still there)

Although the Wessex was nominally a 6.1 ton machine, a couple of ex Pilots in Dept of Transport advised that the armoured version that would come (presumably from the North) was likely considerably heavier than delivery spec and that the pad, which was commonly used by the 4.3 ton IAC Dauphin, may structurally fail.

Among alternative solutions being looked at were Merrion Square Park and the pitches at UCD Belfield, although it doesn't say what solution was arrived at.

Personally I'd have thought the playing fields at Trinity College Park would be ideal, being easy to secure and just a two or three minute drive to Government Buildings.

sparky42

The Times has a new article:

[QUOTE]

The government has no plan to increase the military in a significant way, according to sources

The government is making plans to turn the Defence Forces into a leaner and smarter military backed by advanced technology to protect the state in the decades ahead.

The Commission on the Future of the Defence Forces is due to report later this month but it is understood the government is already preparing for reform of the army, naval service and air corps.

The plan hopes to transform the Defence Forces into an “interoperable fighting force” capable of fulfilling its mission using new technology. The government has no plan to increase the military in a significant way, according to sources familiar with the issue.

The commission, which is chaired by the former civil servant Aidan O’Driscoll, is due to meet this month to agree on a series of recommendations that are the subject of ongoing debate and intense behind-the-scenes lobbying. The report was due to be submitted to the government last month but this was postponed because of disagreements over its contents.

The Defence Forces is seeking to establish a “tech-enabled” military force capable of detecting and responding to threats in multiple domains.

In written submissions, it had sought significantly enhanced capabilities for the Air Corps and Naval Service to allow them to respond to threats in Irish-controlled air space and Ireland’s maritime territory, while the army is seeking enhanced protection for overseas operations. The commission is unlikely to make all of these recommendations.

Closures of barracks are unlikely to be proposed.

The role of the Defence Forces in protecting the state against international terrorist groups and hostile states has been considered.

The Department of Justice and garda headquarters did not make any formal submissions to the commission during its research phase but have made representations concerning the role of military intelligence, known as J2, asking that it be more legally defined, according to political sources.

The military has for decades monitored the activities of foreign intelligence services from countries such as Russia on Irish soil.

The issue of what J2 does with such intelligence has become the focus of some debate.

Intelligence gathered by J2 is shared with European countries and the United States but limited information is shared with garda headquarters, who themselves provide limited information to the Defence Forces, which has a long standing expertise in the area.

The two agencies have also mounted simultaneous operations against the same targets, leading to inter-agency conflict and duplication of resources.

The Representative Association of Commissioned Officers (Raco) had urged the commission to recommend the establishment of a national intelligence service but this is unlikely to happen.

Conor King, the Raco spokesman, said if granted this would have brought Ireland into line with other EU countries. The military itself has campaigned for the creation of a civilian intelligence agency since the 1970s.

Declan Power, an independent security analyst, said he feared the commission was a missed opportunity to develop and advocate for a new agile defence force for the state.

“Why put together a commission on defence when they feel they may have to discard or ignore their contribution, which begs the question on how much serious thought was put into the composition of this commission in the first place,” he said.

Ger Guinan of the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association said he believed the government was making advance plans for what the commission was likely to report.

“The Defence Forces have been in such bad condition so it doesn’t surprise me that aspects of the commission’s report have been planned for already,” he said.[/QUOTE]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/plans-in-place-to-make-defence-forces-smarter-and-high-tech-n3zt39pj3

Given the issues just trying to hold onto specialists right now, the idea of "leaner and smarter" seems a sick joke, not too mention that even if you got both the NS and AC up to establishment figures, it won't be enough.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411466#Comment_118411466

I Taught J2 & Garda National Crime & Security Intelligence Service worked well together

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118411569#Comment_118411569

Don't know, could just be an argument over resources, maybe the Gardaí are worried about J2 getting more money?

Larbre34

Depressingly predictable. Predictably depressing.