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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I know thats why they need to make it work and do what ever changes are needed. It may have a knock on effect with the wider public service but the state will just have to deal with it



  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭mupper2


    I'm just going to repost my tweets I made on this grammar/spelling issues and all (Was this you on Twitter I responded to DV?)


    "My main issue/s is not the DE. DE has its place whether the NS, army doctors etc, this feels like a different scale, purpose and in the end unintended consequences of that. The first priority which we have seen little movement on is pay/condition's etc without tackling that and seemingly going straight to "That's too hard, how about outsourcing it" they've shown their hand..

    I genuinely hope I'm wrong and this is part of a wide overhaul and renewal and not just a band aid..


    that we'll eventually be forced to relie on more and more like we're Kuwait or the UAE needing outside advisers for some of the basics. Another more ...subtle piton about DE is usually those people have a direct connection with Ireland,


    they are, they are Irish people, decedent of Irish people or people have immigrated here and want to serve their new home...now people can call me what they want for that statement but there is a personal connection there and not just monetary "I was hired from an agency"



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    it was.

    Here's how I see it.

    Every year 40-50 students graduate from NMCI and go to work in the maritime sector, usually overseas. They follow the money. Some will eventually find their way home, but usually not until they are late in their career, approaching, or just past 50, and looking for a nice desk job. These are not the target Audience.

    However, there are also those recently qualified, having completed a cadetship with one of the larger lines, find now that this company only has people at their level from "agency" offering a rate far below what they would expect or were promised when they were looking forward to qualifying. Their option is (a) go further away to find where the proper industry rate is being paid (such as the Oil industry or Offshore energy) which inevitably leads to either 6 months on/off on tankers or 1 month on/off in the offshore sector, either working in North Sea or off Australian waters. (thats where the money is). Some even went and joined other Navies. I know a classmate of mine had almost joined the RFA before a better job offer came from Ireland.

    This is an industry that while is somewhat in touch with the modern world, you don't have lots of time to browse the "situations vacant" sections.

    Employing an agency to focus on this skillset can target Irish mariners working overseas with the necessary skills. A reach far beyond what publicjobs.ie or military.ie could reach.

    I met a DE on a naval vessel recently, had gained his qualifications on the ferries going from the many island states of the European sub-continent, to Mainland Europe.

    Problem is, very few of the companies in this game are Irish crewed any more.

    There is One Irish flagged merchant fleet employing Irish officers, it used to be exclusively Irish, but lately It flagged out some of its vessels elsewhere, and the crew nationality changed with it.

    So we have a small pool of people who may have wanted to join the NS once upon a time, didn't for whatever reason, and like I did, went down the merchant route. Now they are just looking for the right time to come back, and this plan, the details of which are pretty vague, to be fair, may just be able to target the exact people the NS need right now.

    Post edited by Dohvolle on


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Could the Navy not do a deal with NMCI students that they will cover all there fees if they serve 5 years at sea with the navy when they graduate and then they can go there own way if the choose after the service



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    No, because its not after graduation where the gaps are. Its when they are qualified watchkeepers. (only happens after a few years at sea, and NS are not equipped to carry ships full of semi qualified watchkeepers, not to mention the potential unsuitability for military service some may have).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The other thing to remember is the staffing issue is not just a military issue. I am not directly involved with construction anymore but indirectly and my clients are telling me they are having such staffing issues they are turning away work.

    Since covid there is also a change in what work people will do, some of the lads telling me the lads will only work the 40 hours and no extra. Maybe they are right when i started out i would be on site from 7am to 8pm. Lads today will not except that and they are probably right



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,600 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You're quite right.

    And surveys are finding that work-life balance and flexibility have increased in importance among priorities for job seekers, compared to salary.

    Perhaps something to consider for the DF as they develop work force plans to underpin the LoA2 objectives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Absolutely, I spoke to a haulier recently who can't get drivers to work for €60K a year, even though the tachograph will limit the hours they can work. Another who visits the same large civil engineering project site daily, but deals with different staff each time, due to the staff turnover. Anyone who can, wants to work from home where possible, and who could blame them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,483 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Re construction: My brother is a tradesman and was just telling me the same thing the other day about the shortage of labour on a major building site he is on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42


    It’s pretty much everywhere to be fair, something overlooked by the politicians claiming there’s easy solutions to issues like housing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Not a surprise, not that anything will happen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Great news. Our lads out and about with Jonny German!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42


    And predictably Pop Up Paul is outraged!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I see in the DF 2022 report it references army as Land, Navy as Maritime and air corps as Air. I noticed over the last while in offical defence forces publications this is how the 3 services are being referenced. Will we see the new names not air force etc but along the same lines as the Belguim forces?



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,600 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    I don't know what the Belgians use, but the CoDF recommendations for Ireland that were adopted, are Army, Navy and Air Force.

    I would guess we won't see them employed until legislation is enacted to install the Chief of Defence and the GOCs of the three services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The belgians restrutctured in the 2000s i think with a Chief of Defence and renames the various arms of the military

    Army - Land Component

    Navy - Marine Component

    Air Force - Air Component

    And then also Cyber,SOF and medical components

    All are suppouse to be of equal footing. The air corps are more and more refering to themselfs as the air Component of Óglaigh na hÉireann and now in the 2022 report each element is referenced as above

    In regards to equal sizes in the forces since the army is going to be gone from ATCP there main role will be now overseas work so no reason the other two services cant be built up to match there size particuarly the navy



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    My jesus we really kill ourselfs in this country with Red Tape from infastructure such as housing and transport to now sending a close protection team to protect the FA staff in ukraine

    https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/01/17/elite-troops-team-to-go-to-kyiv-to-protect-irish-ambassador-and-embassy-staff/



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42


    FFS, of all our self inflicted issues, the utter shambles of restrictions we've placed on defence is a special kind of stupid.

    In other news, interesting to see the Dutch showing a bit more interest in defence here:

    https://www.thejournal.ie/adriaan-palm-dutch-ambassador-richard-piso-nato-brexit-neutrality-ireland-5956773-Jan2023/



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,600 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    In fairness, thats the Dutch showing interest in selling expensive kit.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The state can give the MRV contract to the dutch if they throw in 12 F16s with it



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,600 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    No, we've seen the Government talk a lot and write some glossy policy documents about aspirations. We haven't seen one project budget assigned, or tender issued. And lets be clear, the additional C295M in Transport config, is a response to the Kabul incident and long standing petitioning by the Air Corps to purchase one, not the demands of the CoDF action plan.

    We haven't seen one earnest effort to get the ball rolling on LoA2 acquisitions yet and what the Dutch diplomats are engaging in, is no less speculative than the Defence Builders who sent brochures into the Commission.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,131 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    The Canadians tried it, the RCAF was Air Command, the CA was Land Force Command (after a brief stint as Mobile Force Command), and the RCN became Maritime Command. As of 2011 they gave up and went back to the old names.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    In the minsterial briefing they mention a few times about how they want a fully intergated defence forces among all elements



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Oh, another one who thinks because there isn't a squadron of F35s on the ramp ar Bal, the whole thing has failed.

    You need to READ the action plan perhaps, and see what the expectations are after 6 months, because that is only where we are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,600 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You know I don't think that at all, don't be daft.

    I want to know, that in the current European security environment, where is the urgency on the primary radar at the very least.

    Some elements of the plan can wait for the glacial performance typical of the Irish Civil Service. Others cannot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,475 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The 1st thing the defence forces have to do probably is have a project team in place that will see the changes through before they start buying major equipment. As mentioned before with ATCP going could this free up personal from the army to operate a radar system etc



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭sparky42


    The other thing to consider when asking about a timeframe for new procurement is just how much capacity within DOD and DF for procurement management? How many projects can they handle at once, particularly when losing defence firms can and do sue over decisions?



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