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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    ERU to travel inHeli. Army AW139 is supposed to , but availability is an issue because of the Athlone operation. Ergo, they go it alone. They may even get a "Garda" 139. Plenty of space for all the kit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Aw139 for everybody in the audience!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,464 ✭✭✭Sgt. Bilko 09


    “New Aircraft have lower environmental impact with the new replacement helicopter expected to reduce CO2 emissions by up to 80 per cent” why do they feel the need to add that green hippy bit into the presser 🤦‍♂️ anyway given they made a point of adding that in, I would say the H225 is a contender as it is the first ever Airbus helicopter to have 100% sustained aviation fuel.(according to the website)


    Eamon Ryan suggested “a colourful hat with a little propellor on it, however it was overturned as it would cost too much to provide one to each member of the ERU and ASU”(I made this up but fully convinced it was tabled)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Your first paragraph is answered by the second effectively.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    A little rant by Mr Tobin below. With ATCP near enoght going to be binned. Does army numbers need to he worried about?

    The Air Corps and the Navy we all know need more numbers but with the army atcp role gone that should ease alot pressure on them




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    That twat is only trying to get his far right face in the news. Other TDs asked the same question at PQs monthly but don't make the headlines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The Mirror is saying the new GASU helicopter will be a H145 and carry 10 ERU members. A H145 fitted out with all the normal survelliance kit and then 10 Fully equiped ERU members to fit in. Would not be a tight fit?




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Just a quick look and it seems it's Max passengers is 9 anyway and I'm presuming without all the kit that the ERU would need or surveillance kit, so I can't see how that flies...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Airbus are supplying a H-145 with the police kit included in the avionics package. In the current EC135 it all sits in a pod under the fuselage, dramatically reducing payload. Presumably Airbus knows what it means when it says "1 or 2 pilots and up to 10 passengers" in its information leaflets?

    Normal GASU crew is 1 pilot plus 2 observer/operators.


    H145 technical information | Airbus



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Could we ever see the air corps going down the H145 route or is leonardo the air corps choice of helicopter



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    Helicity operate 139 passenger service from Algeciras to Ceuta with 9 passengers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    We have no "choice of helicopter". Agusta won the Utility Helicopter contract which saw us with the AW139, meanwhile, Eurocopter won the LUH contract at the same time, which is why we ended up with the EC135P2 in the light role. Up to that point, (apart from the S61) every helicopter in the Air Corps had come from Aerospatiale (later Eurocopter, now Airbus Helicopter).

    There is a tender process here, specifications are set, only those suppliers who's product fit the bill, get to supply the organisation.

    This is fairly basic government procurement. How are you unaware of this? Are you 12?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I am very up todate with tenders and know how they can be worked to get what the client wants



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Great.

    Maybe you will explain why we don't have Blackhawks so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Boeing would not paint a dayglow orange stripe on them?

    Generally lowest price always wins tenders in this country. But i have being on both sides of the fence over the last 27 years working on public tenders and tenders can and are written to get a certain outcome



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Are you joking?

    This isn't a box of biros. High value players like Leonardo and Airbus employ battalions of lawyers who spend their whole lives doing nothing but overseeing tender activity in the market and bringing the legal sledgehammer down on the mere sniff of collusive tendering, which is official term for what you're suggesting.

    Those companies will not give a second thought to turning a government upside down and having all their spare change as compensation and then still end up winning the inevitable rerun of the tender competition.

    Yes, the Airbus H145 would be the ballpark of what AGS want, but Leonardo will be pulling up trees trying to get in under them with the AW169 and heck, even Sikorsky might offer the S-76+.

    AGS will get the aircraft which meets their requirements (all else being equal) and not the other way around.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    One can only look at so much of the US military tendering legal disputes, the latest being for the next gen helicopter. It's relative small change to the arms companies what we buy but they are still going to do their all to get that money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    We don't have to go as far as that. Just cast our minds back to when Sikorsky won the Medium Utility Heli contract, and Eurocopter kicked up a fuss because Sikorsky had included offsets and If Eurocopter knew that they could have offered their Cougar at a better price, and before AW had time to wade in with their lawyers too, the Minister at the time cancelled the contract completely, and we still have not got Medium Utility Helis, 20 odd years later.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I notice with the GASU helicopter its not a RFT yet only a notice. They intend to have it opertional by the end of the year. Thats seams like a short run in. Considering aircraft backlogs would any aircraft manufacture be able to have a police spec aircraft ready that quick?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,080 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Probably not. But since when has Government procurement delivered much of anything on time?

    It does seem odd to make themselves a hostage to fortune on lead times, I mean we know the PC12s (bar one) and 295s took every minute of their 2 and 3 year contracted times to be delivered and those were orders placed before Covid.

    Maybe they said it because it sounds like a gung-ho thing to say, but they know the general public couldn't give a shyte about such things, if it is much later.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Oddly, yes. There is a supplier based in the UK that provides Police Helicopters (Formerly McAlpine, now part of the Eurocopter group). It orders bare aircraft from the Home company and kits them out to the customers spec. GASU aren't buying a heli so much as buying a Police heli. The heli already exists. We got the current fleet from this supplier and moth New helis were technically 2nd Hand. 256 entered service with GASU on 5/12/2002, but was built in 2000, and was on the UK Register from February of 2002, having been on the German register before that. 272 was also on the UK register prior to delivery in November 2007. It was built in 2006.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭sparky42


    Well, we’ve tried nothing and it hasn’t worked, let’s outsource it…



  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭mupper2


    They talk about actually enlisting/commissioning people from abroad into the NS...like how does that work. To get good talent you'll have to pay more then what the NS pays now, so we'll have a 2 tier system where for want of a better term "mercenaries" will be paid better then actual Irish NS sailors?

    And if you don't pay better then that you get what a glorified ferry service just hiring Filipino and Indonesian sailors at barely minimm age...at that stage it's not the Irish Naval Service anymore...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Imagine they come up a plan where they pay the going rate and offer good terms and conditions . That would probably be to crazy.

    In servicing the ships could they not make offers to former/retired members to come back on civilian contracts?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    That's a good idea! Could fill some of the gaps and help restore the NS institutional memory in engineering matters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Its called direct entry, it's been used in the NS since the beginning, only this agreement will cast the net wider.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,442 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Pension Abatement is the issue there. Why would you come back if you lose all the pension entitlements you worked 20 years to get?



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