Relaxation of Restrictions, Part XII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

charlie14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196013#Comment_118196013

If they have been preaching that medical science will do nothing to counteract this pandemic and that people should just ignore it and rely on Mother Nature or, according to the poster I was originally addressing (plus at least one more on this thread preaching the same and who like him believes that it is the will of some unspecified deity), then why would they compromise their "body integrity" by taking up a hospital or ICU bed ?

mcsean2163

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196014#Comment_118196014

I agree, it's awful to think that anyone would be forced to take a medical treatment that could save their lives and the lives of others. Anyone going in unconscious to A&E should of course be let die because without consent, blood transfusions etc. should not be given / s

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196013#Comment_118196013

Solving someone's obesity is orders of magnitude more work than getting double jabbed (triple jabbed for the obese person, with the 3rd after 6 months, if it's severe enough to count as an underlying issue). Vaccination is literally the cheapest, easiest, quickest thing to do to drastically reduce risk and strain on the health system.

But, as I said, every willfully unvaccinated person taking up a hospital bed is a complete and total hypocrite, but hypocrites are treated the exact same way as everybody else who lives in this country which is why those talking about "excess deaths" (usually be dropping all restrictions) are awful as what they really mean is "excess deaths that aren't me".

Gortanna will of course take up a hospital bed if they get sick and no doubt be back on afterwards raving about how great their natural immunity was with absolutely no learning done (see trump as a prime example of this).

It's also doubtful we'll move to mandatory vaccination here, our vax rate is high enough that we're avoiding a lot of what's happening in Europe right now, the next 8 weeks will be tough on the health system, if you're unvaccinated, go get vaccinated, within a few short weeks you'll reduce your risk of putting strain on the system right when it could be crucial.

Parachutes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196014#Comment_118196014

They’ve quite literally done everything in their power to “force” people to take the vaccine apart from dragging people out of their homes and holding them down. Most of the people who are unvaccinated are foreigners or members of ethnic minorities. The same people who say nasty, downright vile things about unvaccinated people would be the first to cry “racist!” if the government tried to force a person of colour to get one against their will.

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196145#Comment_118196145

So what you're saying is because I work hard not to become unhealthy and look after myself and eat right I should be punished where as the lazy fat **** who takes a jab which probably won't help much for any other reason they end up in icu they are somehow more worthy.

Weird framing

The fact you are arguing this and not that we should have a better health service goes to show how the government has played you like the fool you are.

Not only that. A man my age in my good health and physically fit just isn't going to end up in icu.

So why again am I not allowed in after my recovery pass "runs" out while my unhealthy jabbed counter part who is at much higher risk is allowed swan about more than a year after their 2nd jab.

Or are you going to argue that 2 jabs isn't enough and they will then be unvaccinated shortly without a 3rd booster??

Spiderman0081

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196145#Comment_118196145

I completely agree with that vaccination is the best option for those who have lived an unhealthy lifestyle, so much so that it has caused them to be in one of the main groups of individuals that are ending up in icu. But I also truly believe that vaccinating young, healthy individuals should not be the focus of any government.

It is becoming more and more evident that people are being lulled into a false sense of security after receiving the vaccine. They feel that there is no need to change their sugar intakes, fatty diet or start running to lose weight because they are protected by the vaccine.

If you take 20 vaccinated individuals with a BMI of 40, and 20 unvaccinated Olympic swimmers and all become infected with covid there is a 99% chance none of the swimmers will need medical care. The same can’t be said for the vaccinated group unfortunately

This virus has been with us for almost two years now. Where have we seen a push from government, really pushing for people to get healthy and lose weight. At the beginning of this year people were once again locked in their homes, eating take away food and watching tv. Madness.

We really need to stop painting everyone with the same brush. The vaccines are doing a terrible job at stopping the spread and the benefits of taking the vaccine when you are young and healthy are minuscule. It’s like telling a teenager to stay inside in the off chance they get hit by lightning. If the vaccines were actually effective at stopping the spread, then there would be cause for everyone to be vaccinated.

People who are overweight because of a terrible diet and lifestyle should take the vaccine. That’s a start. But they really really need to get their diet and training in order. That’s what will make the difference in the long run.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196492#Comment_118196492

So, you're so fit and healthy that you'd refuse a hospital bed if you're sick with COVID? Of course you won't. But there is lots of people in hospital and a good proportion in ICU right now who thought the exact same thing you did.

You're strawmanning on the 3rd jab :)

edit: from the timing it sounds like you got COVID after refusing the vaccine?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196538#Comment_118196538

We'd be lucky to have any meaningful effect on obesity over 5 years whereas a 2 dose, 6 week vaccine course reduces your risk by ~90%.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195643#Comment_118195643

If that was what I wanted to say I would say it.

Spiderman0081

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196595#Comment_118196595

Exactly. If your unhealthy and overweight, take the vaccine and start on a healthy diet onwards. If you are young, fit and healthy then the vaccine is of little benefit, for yourself or society.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118195646#Comment_118195646

NPHET pushed it on them and the alternative was to go against their advice. Plenty would be said about that path as well.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196607#Comment_118196607

The vaccine reduces your starting risk by about 90% regardless of your current status. Given that everyone will likely be exposed to SARS-COV2 at some point, you'd have to be dumb not to take it (unless you can't take it).

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196607#Comment_118196607

Are we now blaming the "fatties" for all of this?!

AlekSmart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196098#Comment_118196098

That's stretching it a bit,but if it reflects your thinking on how stuff works,then it's ok with me. 🙂

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196754#Comment_118196754

May as well - everyone else has been blamed for it so far - kids, teenagers, adults of drinking age, old people , abbatoir workers, construction workers etc etc.

The only ones who dont seem to be responsible is the 160 muppets running the place plus their "advisors" who are working in close contact to each other - Its very rare to see any of them wearing masks and social distancing when in teh Dail, tv interviews etc.

I say we start blaming them just for the sake of it!!!

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196008#Comment_118196008

Or it could say 48% of the population are idiots and want more restrictions!!

Spiderman0081

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196637#Comment_118196637

-Are you calling people who have already had covid, and therefore do not want the vaccine “dumb “?

-Are you calling double vaccinated people who refuse the booster “dumb”?

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196595#Comment_118196595

It's not a straw man if I put a question mark after it. I am asking you if you will do something in a given scenario.

I didn't say "you believe xyz"

Straw man is me accusing you of making an argument you didn't make. I am asking you what your position will be when (like in israel) you are only considered vaccinated after the 3rd jab.

You should learn the fallacy before you try to claim I used it. :)

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196904#Comment_118196904

I said what I said, you can keep on the strawman attacks if you wish.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118196923#Comment_118196923

You're talking about a hypothetical situation that I don't believe will happen for the general population, this is what you said, you framed the question as an attack on something that I hadn't said, that's a strawman. Putting a "??" on the end doesn't change it as an attack.

Or are you going to argue that 2 jabs isn't enough and they will then be unvaccinated shortly without a 3rd booster??

completedit

I am against lockdown and really any more restrictions on freedom unless absolutely necessary and I also believe we need as a global society determine how we are going to get out of this because one years has become two years and it is looking like there will be no letup. I don't think restrictions will be with us in 2025 but who knows and why not? How scaled up can we really get our healthcare systems especially as the population in this part of the world ages more and more every year. Obviously this winter was always going to be touch and go but I wasn't expecting us to be on the brink of another lockdown.

However, these decisions by Government are damaging to them so I don't see what their modus operandi is other than the fact that our health system is on the brink of collapse. Underfunding and mismanagement of resources is definitely a huge issue but it's not relevant to the here and now. The people responsible need to be cleared out in a root and branch after this but right now with the virus escalating, they must really believe that the situation is slipping out of our control.

The way I see it you have people who think the Government want to bring in these totalitarian laws, then you have the anti-vaxers, then you have the Covid 'rationalists' who believe we need to let nature take its course and cannot go on limiting people's lives because people die of a natural disease(Survival of the fittest makes sense when you're dealing with statistics but each life lost is somebody's mum, dad, aunt, uncle, so while it does make sense, there's a human element that makes it unlikely, at least not as an overt policy, however eventually this decision will be made), then you have the people who just want to criticise Government(the decisions are either too harsh or not harsh enough)

lawred2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197489#Comment_118197489

What's your point?

watchingfromafar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197261#Comment_118197261

I am asking you. If like in israel 3rd jabs become needed to be considered fully vaccinated what will your stance be.

Yes it's a hypothetical however it is not some far reaching or bizarre idea.

We already consider immunocompromised people with 2 jabs "unvaccinated" if they haven't had the 3rd dose.

That's how hspc collect data.

You are basing your argument on unvacicnated icu number off their definitions

So again. Will you consider people who refuse the 3rd jab as unvaccinated. Or would you say its their personal choice and agree no restrictions should be placed on them even after its show the effectiveness of preventing transmission is basically gone after 1 year.

completedit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197558#Comment_118197558

just creating more noise.

But I am wondering about how get out of this? Germany has 28 hospital beds per 1,000 inhabitants(is that right?) yet have gone into lockdown. How does Europe get out of persistent lockdowns over the next decade? Healthcare in Ireland was already under pressure and then Covid comes along and seems to be the straw that broke the camel's back. If Covid is with us forever and with ageing populations in Europe and Ireland, I am curious as to how we will 'live with covid' in the decade(s) ahead

Parachutes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197583#Comment_118197583

You know exactly what his stance will be…..

funkyzeit100

It seems likely that continuous restrictions and lockdowns are with us to stay until new, more effective vaccines are created.

Lockdown for Christmas, almost definite.

Lockdown for next Christmas, probable.

Besides that disaster, with pup payments just finished, how in the hell this is going to be paid for, indefinitely, is the trillion euro question!

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197583#Comment_118197583

I'd answer it based on the medical data at the time and when it's not a hypothetical, as COVID has shown, taking strict stances or making statements in the definitive comes back to haunt people, I doubt it will be enforced beyond Spring next year unless there is a serious deterioration or some new variable comes into play.

Are you going to martyr yourself by not being allowed into many places rather than take a safe jab when your recovery cert runs out?? (I'm using your magical double question mark)

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197732#Comment_118197732

Have to go and see the troika again for another bailout

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197591#Comment_118197591

The UK has shown the way here (as has Israel), cases need to be allowed to happen, pressure on hospitals will be continuous for a few quarters but eventually the waves pass as the virus goes through society or the vulnerable keep themselves boosted.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197789#Comment_118197789

The ECB will handle that for us, more so as Ireland is in one of the better economic positions in Europe (and not having to face into the forever drain that is Brexit).

funkyzeit100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197789#Comment_118197789

This is looking very ropey now.

If you were a betting man you'd have to be feeling very confident that next year the worldwide recession begins.

This scenario is the ultimate in unsustainable, and people are going to be a lot less placated now that the free money won't be there.

Crazy times coming.

CruelSummer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118197815#Comment_118197815

Would you agree that the U.K. has also shown the way re not introducing vaccine passports that do nothing to curb the spread of Covid?