Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526295#Comment_121526295

You can spell out all you want. Let's get to the next question:

Do you want Ukraine to prevail in the war? Yes or no, straight answer.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526524#Comment_121526524

I am not a Ukrainian citizen - it is not my duty to defend Ukraine. It is morally correct though to support Ukraine.

Are you a Ukrainian citizen? If so, it is your duty to do your service if you are eligible and wanted there.

Do you want Ukraine to prevail in the war? Yes or no, straight answer.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526463#Comment_121526463

Yes.

But Furze, let's not cloud the issue. You're more concerned about the number of foreigners in the country and you'll support any measure that reduces this number.

That's why you're so eager to send someone elses sons and husbands off to war.

Reminds me of Alfrid Lickspittle in the Hobbit screaming "to the death" and then running away from the enemy.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526463#Comment_121526463

Stop with the BS and that stupid question do you want Ukraine to prevail....

There's still 37 million people in Ukraine as we speak, there is absolutely zero reason for anyone here or in Ukraine to demand we deport thousands of young people and men of a particular age to fight a war that they have zero interest in , just as much as you have no want to go die in a cold,wet trench without even the basic of equipment

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526569#Comment_121526569

This is a thread about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. If you want to discuss immigration and refugees, there are two other very active threads in which you participate I believe.

Please stop trying to conflate what I'm saying here with your views on 'foreigners' as you put it. I have absolutely no interest in debating 'foreigners' with you on this thread. It's the wrong place. We are discussing Ukraine and Russia and the needs of Ukraine both in manpower and equipment and finances.

Now, given that you wish Ukraine to prevail in this war that Russia has imposed on them, how do you propose that they do this without sufficient able bodied manpower? Citizens that are needed to sustain the war effort both on the front lines but also importantly working in supplies and logistics. Even just keeping the lights on and roads open.

How do they do this without sufficient able bodied manpower?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526439#Comment_121526439

LOL.

And if it's that fundamental you can point to where it says in the Constitution about citizens' obligations during wartime. It's there in the 2nd amendment of the US constitution, albeit as "armed militia" and all the unfortunate societal impact that has caused. You say it's a core tenet yet our own founding politicians saw fit not to include it. Why's that? Why do we not just have conscript armies if it's that much of a core of living.

Spoiler: 'cos it isn't.

Second spoiler: I respect the men fighting in Ukraine and I respect the men who left. It's not black and white, they're not mutually exclusive thought processes.

Plus, you're quoting World War 1? Hoo-boy. That's not the silver bullet you think it is: being as it was one of the more egregious examples of shocking wasted life and pointless war. And the origin of "shell shock" as the modern understanding of what war does to the psyche. I'd be surprised if those men would have done it all over again, knowing what we know now about that war of imperial cousins.

Though if you're chatting to WW1 vets in your youth it tells me what age you must be - and makes it a little more galling you'd so flippantly witter on about what Young Men should or shouldn't do with their lives - all in the name of "the country". Easy to be a smartphone samurai when you're too old to be of use militarily, in a country that hasn't seen an invasion since the Vikings. Beware the hot air of old men.

Those men in WW1 didn't get the choice to have "guts", what a crass reductive thing to say: they were conned into enlisting, often brow-beaten by people like you wielding white feathers - if they weren't conscripted as they were elsewhere - then lead to slaughter on an industrial scale by old men talking of honour & glory. Sounds familiar? Maybe you didn't listen too closely to those veterans, for all your talk. Thos Boys often did all they could to get out of the trenches; if they were lucky they could go home injured, if they were unlucky they were shot for cowardice. Maybe read "All Quiet on the Western Front" before talking up the guts of WW1 vets.

Don't lecture people on "moral fibre" without perhaps having the self-awareness to interrogate what it is to be a refugee, why a man or woman might flee a war zone rather than stand and fight and die in a ditch screaming for your mother. If you wanna hate migrants, or call them cowards, then be open about it without hiding behind Big Talk about defending one's country - that's no better, and no more rational than the bartstool bore rattling on about what professional footballers' performances.

Now. I'm done here; it's just making me laugh at this stage you're so full of jinogistic zeal - and you can have the last word to vent, as I won't see it thanks to the Ignore function.

LOL.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526657#Comment_121526657

I know there are other threads, and that's how I know your ulterior motive.

I'm not going to debate an impossibility.

If you can show that any country could legally deport legitimate refugees to their country of origin, and if you can show that Ukraine is so badly in need of manpower they need to extradite their citizens then I'll debate it.

Right now it's just a fairytale in your head that plays well with your views on refugees and immigrants.

Wolf359f

So deport Ukrainian men if Ukraine requests them to be deported? I can't see many, if any counties agreeing to that. I don't even think Ukraine would ask countries, or put them in that position.

What's next, prevent any Russian citizens from going back to Russia for fear they will fight against Ukraine? Can't be allowing Russians home if we want Ukraine to win or something like that.

I certainly don't begrudge any citizen (from Russia or Ukraine) who flees to avoid being conscripted.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526676#Comment_121526676

So clearly you think it's OK to flee Ukraine (or Russia) to avoid enlisting. I asked you how you propose they prevail in this war without sufficient able bodied manpower. And you wash your hands of it.

If that's the attitude, then maybe the 'west' would be best to acknowledge this and withdraw all useful support from Ukraine. Why help a country whose own citizens are not prepared to stand up and defend it???

Is that the answer you really want??

saabsaab

I think if somone attacked say Cork we should be willing to defend it in any way we can.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526710#Comment_121526710

I do think it's OK to flee a war you want no part in. So does the rest of the world, which is why we have laws protecting refugees. Does it fill you with joy to see so many patriotic Russians enlist?

When you can demonstrate there is insufficient manpower in Ukraine then I'll debate it.

When you come out with nonsense like this " Why help a country whose own citizens are not prepared to stand up and defend it???" given we've seen 100,000 Ukranian casualties, and AFU prevail against all the odds, then I wonder what planet you're living on.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526741#Comment_121526741

Correct. Which is why we have a standing army, such as it is. And no doubt volunteers would bolster ranks, assuming they don't shoot their own feet off. And assuming we had arms to give them.

However if people chose to stay at home, or leave the country with their families, they would be taken in as refugees and given comfort by other nations. As is their legal right to do so, agreed by all.

But I bristle at the hubris, bluster and hot air who think those who choose the second option are lesser, or repugnant. Which is what this comes down to. We've had enough wars caused by the removed flippancy of old men, and condemning those who choose not to die in a ditch are the worst kind of paper tigers.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526765#Comment_121526765

With respect, do you not see the fundamental incompatibility in your response?? You say it's OK to flee war and not defend your country on one hand and then praise the efforts of those who did in the next breath. Hypocrisy.

As for @pixelburp assertion above, I'll have you know than my grandparents who went to the trenches of WW1 were not conscripted. There was no conscription in Ireland during WW1 - no, they answered the call and enlisted. They were otherwise peaceful men prepared to defend against the march of the German, Austrian Hungarian & Turkish empires. Just as Ukrainians are now needed and are indeed morally obliged to defend against the expanding Russian empire.

As for me, I regard our generation as very lucky not to have been sucked into a major European conflict. But you can be damn sure, that if we were that I would have done my duty as a citizen to help defend Ireland. And I would expect nothing less of anyone else.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526782#Comment_121526782

There's no incompatibility. There is a choice.

I congratulate you for your outlook Furze, though saying something and doing it are completely different things, and I'm sure you'll be the first person to give a white feather to your sons and relatives should they not share your ideals.

macraignil

Moving away from the debate about deporting refugees to a country that still has millions of able bodied people capable of taking up arms against putin's aggression the Dutch have put a number on their initial delivery of F-16s to Ukraine:

https://kyivindependent.com/netherlands-to-deliver-18-f-16s/

machiavellianme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526741#Comment_121526741

I'd be thinking they can have it. Kerry too. 😉

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526741#Comment_121526741

Well, it's only Cork. I mean, they all stayed in bed in 1916 so why should they expect the rest of us to defend it. Its an awful shitehole, in fairness.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526782#Comment_121526782

Dulce et Decorum est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks

Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,

Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,

And towards our distant rest began to trudge.

Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,

But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;

Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots

Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling

Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,

But someone still was yelling out and stumbling

And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime

Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,

As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight

He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace

Behind the wagon that we flung him in,

And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,

His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,

If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood

Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,

Obscene as cancer,

Bitter as the cud

Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest

To children ardent for some desperate glory,

The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est

Pro patria mori.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526933#Comment_121526933

Well , it depends on who is attacking it. If it was any country /group bar Russia I would help in defending Cork to the last as there is always hope of victory. BUT, BUT if it was Russia, I would leave it have Russia on the condition that it would never try to attack another county !

jmreire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121525548#Comment_121525548

And he has a problem understanding why Russians don't just rise up, march on the Kremlin and get rid of Putin and his henchmen. I mean like, same as the Irish did in 1916.

thereitisgone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526439#Comment_121526439

You don't live in reality

Humans come in in all shapes sizes and mentally

We have hired a few Ukrainians and out of the 6 i would think 1 could be of use to the Ukrainian military

The other 5 are like little mice

There is no way they could handle battlefield conditions, its probably why there family's arranged for them or themselves to leave Ukraine

Not everyone is cut out for war, being a keyboard warrior doesn't make you tough

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526984#Comment_121526984

I didn't think of all the (hot) takes I'd ever read, it'd someone enthusiastically cheering WW1 as somehow emblematic of the glory of "defending your country".

Wilfred Owen, as quoted by @scottser would be appalled, had he not himself died on the last day(?) of the war during a pointless assault among the thousands of other pointless assaults across 4 years of waste.

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121526524#Comment_121526524

What is all this anti immigrant shite. Most of us in here **** love Ukraine. They are heroes. After this is war is over and they join the EU they can flood the place with themselves assuming our **** government have fixed the housing crisis.

It's pretty black and white. I want Ukraine to win at all costs.

If they ask EU countries for economic aid they should get it.

If they ask for military aid they should get it and more.

If they ask for certain segments of their population back they should get it. Why should Ukrainians still in Ukraine have to undergo mandatory conscription but not those we're helping abroad.

Feel free to disagree whether or not Ukraine should get economic, military or help in terms of manpower. But don't insult me with this anti immigrant shite.

Ukraine to win at all costs and whatever fhet want I say they should get.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527354#Comment_121527354

Unfortunately the Ukrainians here and around the EU have international protection and won't be going anywhere regardless of who asks ,

RoyalCelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527362#Comment_121527362

Laws are there to be changed and I for one hope this law is. It's a fucked up law when you think about it in terms of Ukraine. Some situations it makes sense.

Anyway enough of this shite talk. Today is a day for celebration with 3 russian fighter jets falling out of the sky. Happy Christmas Putin.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527294#Comment_121527294

It's a remarkable segue and deeply instructive that as much as history has taught us the repugnancy of war and the damage it does to people - name checking the one war that finally engrained the psychological strain - old men will still click their tongues that the young might value their own hides instead of itching to grab a rifle.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527354#Comment_121527354

If they ask for certain segments of their population back they should get it. Why should Ukrainians still in Ukraine have to undergo mandatory conscription but not those we're helping abroad.

Because that's not how international law works, no matter how it's phrased. And not have Ukraine asked to have their population shopped back - because ... well. It really shouldn't need explaining why the mass expulsion of a nationality is a bad precedent to set.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527372#Comment_121527372

There not going to change any laws to suit Ukraine, and if they started demanding people who have been given international protection be returned to be sent to their deaths in a trench,they will quickly alienate supporters,they could damage their application to join the EU one day ,

Brussels Sprout

With respect, do you not see the fundamental incompatibility in your response?? You say it's OK to flee war and not defend your country on one hand and then praise the efforts of those who did in the next breath. Hypocrisy.

There's no contradiction in those two positions. You can admire someone for doing something while acknowledging that not everyone has the courage or ability to do that thing. I admire the people who work in hospices greatly but I know that a substantial portion of the population, myself included, could not do that work and that's OK. You appear to be reacting as if that poster had claimed that both sets of Ukrainians were heroes.

No civilised country would deport people if they thought they were going to be immediately conscripted to fight in an active war. Your whole stance is bizarre. It makes sense that it's drive by an ulterior motive as suspected by other posters.

yagan

It's amazing how Ukrainians lives are the sacrafice some key board warrior here are willing to make.

We know it from our own history, there are those with no dreams of combat who'll then prove most able operatives in defence of their communities.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121527453#Comment_121527453

They dont have to fight in the frontlines though. Conscription for example in ww2 Britain for example didnt just mean combat action. It could be any essential role.

It is complex. On the one hand it means Ukraine has less civilians to worry about. On the other, Ukraine needs all the capable people it has.