Hungary passes new homophobic laws

JupiterKid · 15-06-2021 10:54pm #1

It is pretty well known that Western Europe is light years ahead of most countries in Central and Eastern Europe in terms of minority and LGBT rights and equality, but in recent years a number of countries in the former Soviet bloc have been regressing, with growing homophobia - much of it emanating from far right-wing governments looking for a minority group or groups to scapegoat for their own political failings.

In recent years Russia and Poland have turned increasingly anti-gay with some high profile cases in the media of “gay free zones” in Poland and a version of the notorious 1980s UK Section 28 being enacted in Russia under the despotic Putin regime.

Hungary is, sadly, another former Eastern bloc country that has been lurching to the far right in recent years, with the hard right-wing leader, Viktor Orban, scapegoating immigrants, racial minorities and refugees for much of the country’s ills with racism, discrimination and racist and xenophobic attacks on minorities increasing.

Now it’s the turn of the LGBT community to be in the firing line. The Orban government in Hungary have passed a new law very similar to Russia’s (Orban and Putin are very close politically) banning any “promotion” or even mention of LGBT in schools or to anyone under the age of 18. It is extremely worrying to see such social regression in a country that was once hailed as the most socially progressive of the former communist states. Hungary is a really beautiful country that I’ve visited a number of times and it is so sad to see such growing intolerance and hated there.

:mad::mad:

Link to article here:
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/06/15/hungary-anti-lgbt-homophobia-propaganda-law-ban-fidesz-viktor-orban-section-28/

Is this new anti-LGBT law the thin edge of the wedge?

Mic 1972 · 19-06-2021 7:05pm

In all fairness, LGBT shot itself in the foot over the last few years with its gender theory indoctrination. Governments pushing back against LGBT teaching in schools isn't regressing or hateful against gay people.

JCX BXC · 19-06-2021 7:07pm

I wouldn't consider this homophobic as such, there's lots that I myself don't agree with indoctrinating children with. There's a happy medium between education and social theories to be found here.

Tyrone212 · 19-06-2021 7:10pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

I wouldn't consider this homophobic as such, there's lots that I myself don't agree with indoctrinating children with. There's a happy medium between education and social theories to be found here.

So you can indoctrinat people to be gay? Interesting. If that's the case then everyone would be straight.

Mic 1972 · 19-06-2021 7:34pm

Tyrone212 wrote: »

So you can indoctrinat people to be gay? Interesting. If that's the case then everyone would be straight.

Teaching 5 year kids about gender theory makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I think it's refreshing that some countries are still concerned about the opinion of the majority as opposite to the noise coming from a loud vocal minority.

Tyrone212 · 19-06-2021 7:40pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Teaching 5 year kids about gender theory makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I think it's refreshing that some countries are still concerned about the opinion of the majority as opposite to the noise coming from a loud vocal minority.

Ah the usual shiite about loud minority bla bla. I'm not even on about the transgender aspect. If they were worried about that they could have banned talk about that exclusively.

They've banned even mentioning the word gay to under 18s which is ridiculous. 15 16 17 year old will all be aware about people being gay or not. Shielding them from that is just overkill and ridiculous. He also included paedophilia along with the bill so its quite clear what angle they're going with. Just be honest about it.

bb1234567 · 19-06-2021 7:52pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Don’t see much wrong with this - things have gone too far now with this 100+ gender nonsense.

I’m all for live and let live - but some countries (like Canada I think) making laws forcing people to address others by their chosen pronoun is going too far.

I’ll respect you and let you do your thing but don’t force me to call you something that I don’t believe you are.

The community has gone too far and shot itself in the foot big time and legislation like this is part of the expected backlash.

You must be trolling. FFS. You think you're 'respecting' somebody by deliberately not addressing them how they wish to be addressed because of what YOU have the audacity to believe they are. It's literally the height of disrespect.

As for 100+ gender nonsense, whatever, it may be nonsense, but the solutiion is certainly not pretending gender dysphoria doesn't exist and that children shouldn't ever even hear of it's existence. It's nothing at all to do with backlash, if 'the community went too far' then that backlash would be in places like Ireland and Canada, because that's where this 'nonsense' is given any oxygen. Not Hungary, or Russia, the backlash you speak of is not backlash but simply plain old undeserved hatred and intolerance now given legitimacy and a platform. Stop protecting it, it's not a good look, and it most certainly will not lead to improved social outcomes or higher quality of life, for anybody.

Anyway this thread is truly depressing already. I cannot believe we had people on hear defending and explaining away the awful social regression occurring in Eastern Europe with regards gay rights , just repulsive behaviour.

Mic 1972 · 19-06-2021 7:52pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

Don’t see much wrong with this - things have gone too far now with this 100+ gender nonsense.

I’m all for live and let live - but some countries (like Canada I think) making laws forcing people to address others by their chosen pronoun is going too far.

I’ll respect you and let you do your thing but don’t force me to call you something that I don’t believe you are.

The community has gone too far and shot itself in the foot big time and legislation like this is part of the expected backlash.

Completely agree. Drawing a line now to prevent things from spiraling into nonsense.

bb1234567 · 19-06-2021 7:59pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

Completely agree. Drawing a line now to prevent things from spiraling into nonsense.

Wow and a fairly hard line it is! Like being back in the 70's and 80's, where the hard line tried to have school children believe gay people didn't even exist, leading to countless hundreds of thousands of gay children growing up confused, self hating, mis understood and victimised and alienated well into their adult life. I'm sure this line you love will do so much good for the gay people of Hungary and Russia etc, as well as the straight! What a wonderful day for humanity.

Annasopra · 19-06-2021 8:03pm

Mic 1972 wrote: »

In all fairness, LGBT shot itself in the foot over the last few years with its gender theory indoctrination. Governments pushing back against LGBT teaching in schools isn't regressing or hateful against gay people.

Of course its hateful FFS. Denying lgbt people exist. Shaming them. Punishing anyone who says any different. Sorry no this is very clearly all about homophobic and transphobic hate

Annasopra · 19-06-2021 8:04pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

I wouldn't consider this homophobic as such, there's lots that I myself don't agree with indoctrinating children with. There's a happy medium between education and social theories to be found here.

I'm not racist but..... insert racist statement.....

This crap about "indoctrinating" children is homophobic.

eviltwin · 19-06-2021 8:17pm

Drawing a line…..give over, it’s a completely retrograde step that will cause harm to countless young people, the very people the supporters of this claim to want to protect. Is mental health only an issue when it’s straight kids? It makes no difference to anyone how a teen in Hungary or anywhere else chooses to identity themselves. Typically the straight men of boards are happy to roll behind this kind of crap.

Geuze · 19-06-2021 8:29pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

I

Now it’s the turn of the LGBT community to be in the firing line. The Orban government in Hungary have passed a new law very similar to Russia’s (Orban and Putin are very close politically) banning any “promotion” or even mention of LGBT in schools or to anyone under the age of 18.

Where would it be mentioned in an Irish classroom?

In what subject?

CSPE?

SPHE?

I don't think this law is a good idea.

Ten of Swords · 19-06-2021 8:30pm

I'm only going to say this once, discuss this topic respectfully or do not post

This is not After Hours or Current Affairs and posts made purely to bait, wind up or otherwise provoke a reaction from other posters will result in cards and/or bans

Read the forum charter

Theboinkmaster · 19-06-2021 8:49pm

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't even understand this? Why would it matter at all what you think I am?
I decide what I am, why would you?
Do you allow other people to tell you who you are?

I don’t mind what you think you are - as I said live and let live.

But things have gone too far to the detriment of women’s rights IMO, and other marginalised parts of society such as gay people.

I can’t just decide in the morning I’m a cow and insist you address me and treat me as a cow can I? It’s gone too far.

If a man transitions to a woman I don’t think they have same entitlements as women - such as using female toilets or competing in female sports. I still think you’re a man sorry. You may dress like a woman etc and I’ve absolutely no issue with that.

I believe there are 2 genders. Nobody is going to force me to think otherwise but if you believe something else that’s fine you crack on but don’t try to ram it down my throat. Live your life im not stopping you by thinking you are one of 2 genders that I believe.

Off topic - threadbanned

19-06-2021 9:06pm

First and foremost, we must acknowledge the divisions within the LGBT community regarding what should/should not be taught to children.

The word "promotion" is a curious one. My own view, as a member of the LGBT community myself, is that children should not be taught anything related to sex or gender. If anything, only the bare minimum. Discussion of sexuality and identity can be left until adolescence, when children emerge to become adults and have some sense of what sexuality is and what identity may mean.

The recent emergence of self-identification is problematic for me. I don't believe in self-identification on any level whatsoever. For me, labels are superfluous; I'm interested in people. The more labels, the greater probability of division - and I'm against division based on sex or gender insofar as it is possible. In many respects, it makes no sense whatsoever - subjectively or objectively. If it is difficult for adults, goodness knows the confusion it may cause to children. Even if it caused no harm whatsoever, there is no pedagogic reason to include it. It's surplus to requirements as far as education is concerned. The same is true of transgenderism itself.

Similarly, we must respect the fact that different people believe different things. Many people in the Christian and Muslim communities, for instance, are against same sex marriage on tradition and religious grounds. I do not share their view, but I do understand why they - in good faith - believe what they believe. There is no "right answer" here, people believe different things. It's a fact of life. That doesn't make them bad people per se. For example, I would have no qualms having Muslim or Christian friends who believed in what they call traditional marriage. In fact, I do have Muslim friends who find even the idea of gay sex repulsive. But I understand why they do, even though I disagree with it.

So, whilst I do not agree with Hungary's legislation, I don't believe the issue is as black and white as many in the LGBT community would suggest. I, like many other gay people, are often afraid to voice our views for fear of what it appears the majority support. But often, this isn't the case. Instead, privately, many gay people agree with me - as I'm unafraid to voice my opinion on these matters. They are often relieved to find that someone agrees with them. Being LGBT is sometimes considered a uniform thought of belief. But that is to make a grave mistake. We are not a political party who must tow the line to one way of thinking. There are variations of belief, and that must be respected. Otherwise, the LGBT community - or those who speak on its behalf - can come across as a one party state, so to speak.

19-06-2021 9:17pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

Cows don't partake within or act like anybody does within human society so of course it's not the same and not something we will accept, so have you a better or more comparable example? We have men and women in society and transition between genders isn't new territory and won't involve an individual acting in a way that excludes them from partaking in normal human behaviour, or so you'd think if we lived in a more tolerant world. So it shouldn't be all that hard for you to bend your head around that concept and provide the courtesy of acknowledging those wishes of a fellow human being. You'd think there was some big conspiracy here, you act like transgender people are all going through these torturous and long processes of change ,adaption ,self acceptance and societal acceptance just to bug you and ruin your day. Are you seriously THAT self centred ?

Stonewall recently came out and argued that the terms "boys" and "girls" should be dropped in schools. Instead, the word "learner" is recommended.

This is what many people mean by "going too far".

I agree with them. As a member of the LGBT community, this is embarrassing and retrograde.

It makes us look completely ridiculous and ideologically nuts.

bb1234567 · 19-06-2021 9:20pm

eskimohunt wrote: »

Stonewall recently came out and argued that the terms "boys" and "girls" should be dropped in schools. Instead, the word "learner" is recommended.

This is what many people mean by "going too far".

I agree with them. As a member of the LGBT community, this is embarrassing and retrograde.

It makes us look completely ridiculous and ideologically nuts.

Interesting , maybe they did go too far. I certainly think the Hungarian government's decision goes similarly too far and in a way that will be far more socially damaging however.

19-06-2021 9:30pm

bb1234567 wrote: »

Interesting , maybe they did go too far. I certainly think the Hungarian government's decision goes similarly too far and in a way that will be far more socially damaging however.

The number of times I've been accused of being a "self-hating gay" for believing there are only two genders is mind blowing.

That's because I don't believe that gender even exists.

I use gender in the same way that sex is used. Previously people were reticent to use the word 'sex' to describe what gender they were (male/female), so they opted for these gender terms instead.

That's what I still believe to be the case.

I do not believe you can switch gender / sex, and I certainly do not believe there are thousands of genders - including astralgender (an affinity with the stars). That, to me, is a personality description label - and has nothing whatsoever to do with LGBT.

Things have gone too far. As Douglas Murray has said, what is happening now is an "over-correction". Rights were attained and equality established. What is being pushed now is irritating a previously allied population. Nay, it irritates even me - and many other members of the LGBT community.

Nobody should be silenced into believing something they simply do not believe. That includes members of the LGBT community.

Again, I do not agree with Hungary's legislation. But I do believe that we need controls on what is being exposed to children re: self-identification etc. Children absolutely do not need to know this or learn about it.

There is nothing self-hating about any of the above. These are perfectly respectable viewpoints. It's about time we dropped the insecurity and victimhood and accepted diversity of opinion within the LGBT community.

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

So letting transgender athletes compete in their chosen gender is too far - men have a biological advantage over women in a lot of sport. Didn’t a transgender woman seriously insure a woman’s skull in women’s MMA and in America the same cohort are smashing all the someone’s athletics records in some states.

I have a young daughter - she feels safe and happy in the female toilets. If a transgender woman uses the same toilet and is say 6ft2” and 220lbs my daughter may not feel sake and secure in such an environment as many men have so idea of what it’s like for women to always feel vulnerable to men physically being able to overpower them.

Both examples are of what I believe transgender “rights” infringing on women’s rights and going too far IMO.

Please do not come to the conclusion the entire LGBT community disagrees with what you have rightly pointed out.

Many, many agree with you - including me.

In fact, many transgender women agree with you.

Theboinkmaster · 19-06-2021 9:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The number of times I've been accused of being a "self-hating gay" for believing there are only two genders is mind blowing.

That's because I don't believe that gender even exists.

I use gender in the same way that sex is used. Previously people were reticent to use the word 'sex' to describe what gender they were (male/female), so they opted for these gender terms instead.

That's what I still believe to be the case.

I do not believe you can switch gender / sex, and I certainly do not believe there are thousands of genders - including astralgender (an affinity with the stars). That, to me, is a personality description label - and has nothing whatsoever to do with LGBT.

Things have gone too far. As Douglas Murray has said, what is happening now is an "over-correction". Rights were attained and equality established. What is being pushed now is irritating a previously allied population. Nay, it irritates even me - and many other members of the LGBT community.

Nobody should be silenced into believing something they simply do not believe. That includes members of the LGBT community.

Again, I do not agree with Hungary's legislation. But I do believe that we need controls on what is being exposed to children re: self-identification etc. Children absolutely do not need to know this or learn about it.

There is nothing self-hating about any of the above. These are perfectly respectable viewpoints. It's about time we dropped the insecurity and victimhood and accepted diversity of opinion within the LGBT community.

I agree and btw just in case it’s misinterpreted - I 100% believe in gay marriage.

Sometimes folk who believe there are 2 genders are thrown into the same category as racist misogynistic homophobic ignorant people.

19-06-2021 9:39pm

eviltwin wrote: »

So on that basis do you support this move from Hungary?

You can be opposed to the Hungary Bill but still support legislation in principle that limits what is taught to children re: LGBT (and even Straight-stuff).

Again, I re-emphasize that I am a member of the LGBT community myself. This isn't some straight crank talking.

Guy:Incognito · 19-06-2021 9:56pm

eskimohunt wrote: »

The word "promotion" is a curious one. My own view, as a member of the LGBT community myself, is that children should not be taught anything related to sex or gender. If anything, only the bare minimum. Discussion of sexuality and identity can be left until adolescence, when children emerge to become adults and have some sense of what sexuality is and what identity may mean.

Pretending sex doesnt exist doesnt do anyone any favours. Sex education is an important part of education. It helps reduce teen pregnancy if nothing else. It absolutely shouldnt be just straight sex education. Kids are not idiots and shouldnt be treated like they are idiots. ignorance of issues only causes problems.

I remember having at least some sort of sex education in primary school in the late 80's ealry 90's (i finished primary in 92 so it was obviously before that)

Guy:Incognito · 19-06-2021 9:57pm

tom1ie wrote: »

So what pronouns are used instead of Mr Mrs him her?
Genuine question.

I dont know. It genuinly has never come up in my day to day life and has no effect on me. Much like most people that rail against it I'd imagine........

If someone emails me and its signed off as whatever they use as their preferred pronoun, I'd reply with that, I wouldnt be a prick about it and start insisting they be Mr or Ms. No one is freaking out about a mistake either, the only time itll be an issue is when someone knows full well how someone wants to be addressed but tries to get at them by repeatedly calling them something else. Just like if youre name is Thomas and hate to be called Tom but some arsehole in the office keeps sneering and calling you Tom deliberately after youve asked them not to.

listermint · 19-06-2021 9:59pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Pretending sex doesnt exist doesnt do anyone any favours. Sex education is an important part of education. It helps reduce teen pregnancy if nothing else. It absolutely shouldnt be just straight sex education. Kids are not idiots and shouldnt be treated like they are idiots. ignorance of issues only causes problems.

I remember having at least some sort of sex education in primary school in the late 80's ealry 90's (i finished primary in 92 so it was obviously before that)

I had it in primary school too. Well what scant stuff they covered. But the notion it shouldn't be discussed at all is well ridiculous. I can't take anyone seriously that makes such statements . Absolute madness. If people think children aren't learning things from 4th class onwards then they have blocked out their own childhood.

19-06-2021 10:02pm

listermint wrote: »

I had it in primary school too. Well what scant stuff they covered. But the notion it shouldn't be discussed at all is well ridiculous. I can't take anyone seriously that makes such statements . Absolute madness. If people think children aren't learning things from 4th class onwards then they have blocked out their own childhood.

Nobody suggested sex education should be banned. Not even me.

But do you believe 5-year olds should be taught about self-identification, astralgenderism, and thousands of other gender identifications?

tom1ie · 19-06-2021 10:04pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I dont know. It genuinly has never come up in my day to day life and has no effect on me. Much like most people that rail against it I'd imagine........

If someone emails me and its signed off as whatever they use as their preferred pronoun, I'd reply with that, I wouldnt be a prick about it and start insisting they be Mr or Ms. No one is freaking out about a mistake either, the only time itll be an issue is when someone knows full well how someone wants to be addressed but tries to get at them by repeatedly calling them something else. Just like if youre name is Thomas and hate to be called Tom but some arsehole in the office keeps sneering and calling you Tom deliberately after youve asked them not to.

Yeah that'd be pretty ****ty alright.
I heard demi Lovato wants to be know as they or something like that. Now that really doesn't annoy me or bother me but I don't see how it makes sense either tbh?

listermint · 19-06-2021 10:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Where did I make the claim "to be more left than the leftist left politically"?

Must apologize. Confused you with another poster. I retract the left statement .

eviltwin · 19-06-2021 10:05pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nobody suggested sex education should be banned. Not even me.

But do you believe 5-year olds should be taught about self-identification, astralgenderism, and thousands of other gender identifications?

Who says they are going to be? How about teaching kids that people identify as different things and should be respected?

Ten of Swords · 19-06-2021 10:06pm

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I don’t mind what you think you are - as I said live and let live.

But things have gone too far to the detriment of women’s rights IMO, and other marginalised parts of society such as gay people.

I can’t just decide in the morning I’m a cow and insist you address me and treat me as a cow can I? It’s gone too far.

If a man transitions to a woman I don’t think they have same entitlements as women - such as using female toilets or competing in female sports. I still think you’re a man sorry. You may dress like a woman etc and I’ve absolutely no issue with that.

I believe there are 2 genders. Nobody is going to force me to think otherwise but if you believe something else that’s fine you crack on but don’t try to ram it down my throat. Live your life im not stopping you by thinking you are one of 2 genders that I believe.

This is not on topic at all, nowhere does this address or remotely discuss the new laws in Hungary - this is simply soapboxing your opinion on gender identity

Do not post in this thread again

Guy:Incognito · 19-06-2021 10:07pm

eskimohunt wrote: »

Nobody suggested sex education should be banned. Not even me.

But do you believe 5-year olds should be taught about self-identification, astralgenderism, and thousands of other gender identifications?

How would sex education work without any discussion of sex ?

eskimohunt wrote: »

The word "promotion" is a curious one. My own view, as a member of the LGBT community myself, is that children should not be taught anything related to sex or gender. If anything, only the bare minimum. .

My 10 year old has had various questions over the last couple of years when he sees things on TV or hears them and asks about gay people or different types of relationships. Ive answered and been open with my answers. He just shrugs and says "ok" and gets on with his day. Kids are curious, pretending certain things dont exist isnt helpful

19-06-2021 10:07pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Who says they are going to be? How about teaching kids that people identify as different things and should be respected?

What pedagogic reason would that serve?

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How would sex education work without any discussion of sex ?

That's the point I was making. Only the bare minimum should be taught. No more, no less.

Hungary passes new homophobic laws

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