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The Tipperary GAA Discussion Thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ Dayor Knight


    Not exactly a great day nor season for Cahill either.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    The Waterford players completely fell apart, you can’t blame Cahill for that

    I don’t blame Bonnar either for that sh1t today , sheedy and the CB 100% to blame for the current state of tipp hurling.

    I feel sorry for Bonnar, he never should have been given the job and it’s best for himself to just walk away now, why stay and take the blame for the CB



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭ farmerval


    Not sure where the hatred of Bonnar is coming from. Whoever had to transition from Sheedy's reign was going to struggle. Ger Browne being poor today kind of exemplified the issues of getting the U20 and 21 winning players into senior. Individually they've been unreliable, Mark Kehoe with his outstanding potential, Jake Morris the same, they blow hot and cold so often.

    Bonnar will definitely be there for next year, his role will be to fashion a team from what he has available and get the incomers up to the required standard. Who will take over then will be the question. If Cahill stays with Waterford next year, or if Cummins has a good year again next year with the 20's could decide who will follow Bonnar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ evolvingtipperary101


    Too many fancy dans tolerated. No work rate. No hooks or blocks. Absolutely no aggression in the tackle, running, or tracking back. No determination to go to a runner heading directly for goal. A bunch of nice guys, not ready to get hurt at the back and up front. AT THE BACK!

    NO Aggression.

    Forde put in a shift and came out with credit. That's it.

    Someone questioning Setanta in connection with S&C and underage teams? It's only been in play a year. Stop. Just stop...

    Every player on the squad and extended panel has to be interviewed by a hired, independent company, to find out why there's such a lack of effort on the field. Not the county board doing the interviews.

    Same goes for the County board and every role connected to the board - must be interviewed and reviewed by an independent body.

    Blaming past, all-ireland winning managers for today's result? Pathetic.

    Why is there such a disconnect with fans and team? Needs an overhaul and investigation.

    Watching Cork players running around, laughing at the ease with which they have it? Laughing at wides and the unimportance of shooting a wide because they have it that handy... joke of an effort from the players today. Absolute joke. Embarrassed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,391 ✭✭✭✭ callaway92


    At match today - felt outnumbered 2 to 1

    Once we missed the pen, crowd silenced and cork fans roared. Did change game completely

    We are garbage though



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,434 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    Only think I'd hold against Bonnar is the team isn't as fit as it should be. We're not blessed with pace but there's no excuse for the team not being supremely fit.

    Apart from that it's bad timing with some fantastic careers coming to an end, younger lads that aren't as good, and the middle lads just not stepping up like they should. Some players didn't look interested out there today and that's a worry, needs to be full buy in for next year or cut them loose.

    We've a poor record ever since the new format came in for whatever reason, we've not been able to turn Semple into a fortress, we've been better on the road. Think we've all seen how important it is to promote youth, even if at first they're not good enough, we need to persist and help develop if they have the physical attributes needed. No point promoting them at 23/24 as they'll already be too far behind.

    Important 12 months coming up, possible relegation match against Kerry, would like Bonnar to get them in in November and get to work, badly need to get a few wins next season.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    I honestly believe that if we have had a regulation game we could lose it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ evolvingtipperary101


    There's no problem with age. Players develop at all ages. Some people are just late developers. Some people take off early. Some need four or five years of an apprenticeship (a lot of players). More than enough examples of it. It's all about attitude more than age.

    But sometimes you just need to cull a team and rebuild an identity. Only Colm will know if he has the will and drive to take on the 3 years to see if you've been making the right choices.

    Heffernan

    Breen

    Both Flynns

    McCormack

    Kennedy (not a center back - never will be one)

    Cut them and let's see if they can turn it around at club level. The last two might, the rest won't I'd say. They looked frail and cowered under the pressure. Heffernan was struggling to rise the ball. He folded.

    Cahill hung his team out to dry, and I knew it would backfire. You can do that with kids, but not at senior level. Anyway, as far as I can see, Cahill has failed to stabilize Waterford as a defensive unit and he is still trying to make the same offensive game plan from year 1 (which has been figured out) work. He hasn't shown variety to his tactics, and I'd have serious questions as to whether he is ready. His team, a lot of them in their prime, has failed to get goals against the top sides in the business end of championship. He has a lot to prove yet. His Waterford project has been a failure. But the only mitigating factor is, these Waterford players have failed so many managers. So I wouldn't look beyond these Waterford players for blame. But I still think question marks exist over Cahill at Senior inter county level. Too fond of the media as a tool to hang out players. He'd make a good analyst, he wouldn't hold back.

    Bonnar will get another year I'd say. Cummins might take it in a year or so, if he can get O'Connor to come with him, but if he watches today, he won't want it for three years, I'd say.

    Whoever takes the Tipp project on, is taking on a team of players, who for the most part, are not committed when they cross the white line. Fairly gutless stuff today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭ Fred Astaire


    I've never seen a Tipperary team set up as badly in all my life as I saw against Clare and again today.

    How people are letting Bonnar off the hook for this beggars belief. He is a terrible, terrible manager who should be nowhere near this team. If he is in charge next season it would be another 4 defeats, no question about it. If you put him in charge of Limerick he'd have them miles off the All Ireland. He isn't even remotely close to being good enough.

    He spoke about how nobody saw this coming in his interview - he obviously hasn't been on here because this sh*t was called as clear as f*cking day when he took over and multiple times since.

    That team have no belief in him, they aren't playing for him. There was no workrate or intensity today.

    The fans haven't believed in him from day one and that is only going to get worse. Our clubs were sending back tickets for the Waterford game and it worsened every game. There'll be nobody at the games next season if he is in charge.

    Today was probably bad enough that it should see him off, regardless of that absolutely disgraceful 3 year term he was given. And good riddance.

    As for Liam Cahill - while I'm still annoyed he turned us down last year, Bonnar isn't fit to lace his boots at inter-county managerial level. All Colm Bonnar has at this level is failure. If Cahill is available he must be brought in. Remember Waterford lost all four games in 2019, they lost to us by 18 points that year. The next year he had them in an All Ireland final - that is the kind of turnaround that we need. Last year had them on a run through the backdoor until they ran into Limerick - comfortably the 2nd best team in Ireland again. They hit their ceiling and there was nowhere to go. Calling that a failure is utterly comical.



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    Liam Cahill considering his position - the tipp Cb need to be ringing him tonight

    time for the CB to swallow their pride and go get him

    Bonnar will achieve very little with Tipp, Cahill can make tipp competitive again



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭ shockframe


    You can't blame Liam Sheedy all that much.The performances this season ain't his fault.

    2 of the 3 All Irelands that were won since 2001 were under his watch. His team in 2009 was the first and close to the only one to stand up to Kilkenny in their pomp. If anything you could point to the disappointments/underachievement from 2011-18 (bar 2016) when he wasn't there.

    Without him ye might have been looking at a 2 decade gap. It's mind boggling he comes in for the amount of criticism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 352 ✭✭ Fred Astaire


    Cahill can fast track the development of the young players that he already has a great relationship with. He got them 2 underage All Irelands and they would run through fire for him.

    This season is a blot on his copybook for sure but he is still miles, f*cking miles ahead of Bonnar as an option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,754 ✭✭✭ robbiezero


    I would have thought this season a vindication of Liam Sheedy not playing a load of these young lads.

    Maybe he should have got a 3 year extension after his 2nd year with an instruction to start rebuilding, but its hardly surprising in his last year in charge he opted to pick his best 15.

    The one indictment I would have of him is playing a badly off form Brendan Maher when he could have played Craig Morgan.

    I was a bit surprised by the fact Kehoe was started v Limerick in 2020 and never really featured for Sheedy again, but after last 3 games I can see why.



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka



    my 2 problems with sheedy are

    1. People who know tipp hurling were saying in 2020 that we were in trouble with our age profile and sheedy did not make changes and that is why tipp are where they are in 2022, the changing of the guard should have started in 2020. Poor management by sheedy, he made the decision to what was best for himself rather than tipp just like he did in 2010
    2. how he got the job in 2019 is outrageous , asked by the CB to help interview candidates, he than decided to give the job to himself , i said at the time even after winning the all Ireland in 2019 that interview outcome would alienate Cahill and many others which it did.




  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    why have Brian McGrath ger browne Jerome Cahill Craig Morgan Bryan omara ciaran Connolly Conor Bowe billy Seymour gearoid O’Connor been overlooked the last 3 to 4 years

    liam Cahill will build a good team around these guys and he would be looking to this years under 20s to add a couple of good lads too

    cahill can achieve good things with tipp



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ evolvingtipperary101


    They've all played with Sheedy or been on the panel and most of them would have been 18 or younger four years ago...




  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    trying to be clever does not suit you , trust me on that

    we won the under 20 all Irelands in 2018 and 2019 , 3 and 4 years ago

    i understand you are very pro Liam sheedy, you don’t like any negative comments about the man

    answer me this

    why was Craig Morgan not in contention last year ? We can all agree that he has been a success this year?

    the under 20 team in 2019 were far superior to the 2018 team and had some excellent players and there should be more of them starting by now but sheedy decided to skip that part of his role

    the reason he did not select Morgan and other young players , he was going in 2021 anyway and he decided to choose what he knew , he did not fancy rebuilding tipp , let some other mook do that



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ evolvingtipperary101


    I've had this conversation numerous times. I saw Craig numerous times, as with many of Craig's peers, they weren't ready. Craig was ready for championship this year but not last year. Fact. He needed the years to get up to the level. Go to the games, you'll see it yourself.

    Most of those players had two years at under 20 - some even more.

    He didn't skip anything. He had up to 13 of them on the panel - they've been given every chance - some of them numerous. I've been at all the games. Some of them still getting chances and not taking them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭ shockframe


    You make it seem that Liam Sheedy is the only one to go against a winning team.

    You can bet your bottom dollar that Cahill would have gone more with the tried and trusted when push came to shove.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,563 ✭✭✭ windy shepard henderson


    lets be honest , how many players were tipp missing over the course of the championship ...10 ? bubbles , callananan and john McGrath is too much for any county



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  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭ farmerval


    The players that came off the U21 and following U20 have been extremely unreliable in their appearances with the senior team. In 2019 after the round robin in Munster it looked like we didn't have a bench, in the semi against Wexford and the final they came on and played great. Very few of them have taken any chance they got since. Brian McGrath hasn't looked good enough in this years league. Right through the league the younger guys have been hot and cold.

    Looking at the U 20 final today, winning one does not ensure that players will make it at senior. It looked a very poor standard.

    A bigger issue has been the players that should have been carrying the team this year. John McGrath, Bubbles, Cathal Barrett, Seamus Kennedy, Dan McCormack, Ronan Maher, Jason Forde and Michael Breen are there since 2016, they have two ALL Irelands. Barrett and Ronan and possibly Forde have delivered for Tipp, the rest have not come through as leaders for Tipp.

    That level of under performance from a senior experienced group leaves it very difficult for any manager to build a team. Even in a good performance today Forde effects play very little other than getting scores. If we had more in number and more effective workers we could get more from Forde as a pure finisher.

    It has been unlucky with Bryan O Mara not making himself available, Niall O Meara, Willie Connors, Bubbles, Callanan all unavailable. None of them might have been the golden bullet but with Brendan and Paidi gone also we were very light.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 challengerbell


    In 2019 Clare lost in the Munster round robin to Tipperary at home by 13 points. A week later they lost to Limerick by 18. In 2020, Lohans 1st year in charge, they lost to Limerick by 10 and Waterford by 9 points, having scraped past Laois by a single point. That year they also had drawn with Antrim in the league and sirens were sounding for them. But steady improvement was being made. The team they are now is incomparable to where they were 2 years ago. A few additions in personnel, but the core big game players they had in 2019/2020 are still there today.

    The point being, the personnel to do what they are doing now was always there. What they were missing was the right man in charge and the time to improve.

    Yesterday left me feeling as bad, if not worse than I did in 2007, but now just like then, things are not as bad as they seem. I firmly believe the core of players are there to be ultra competitive. But is the right man in charge and will he be given the time.

    I was giving Bonnar time all year. Waiting for some pattern to emerge, some defensive security to be instilled. A workrate with fitness and ultra conditioning to become apparent. But it has been so hit and miss I am left pondering if next year will see progress or be wasted if his backroom team remains on. We look less fit now than we did in January. We showed flashes this year, but only in bursts. 1st half league against Waterford, last 20 mins against Dublin, first 35 against Waterford, first 60 against Limerick. Nothing against Clare and 10 mins against Cork. And lets not forget the personnel missing and the sequence of events this year that acted as hammer blow after hammer blow.

    Connolly, O'Mara, O'Meara not making themselves available. Connors ankle break. Maher forced retirement. Callanan injury. O'Dwyer injury. Bowe injury, Dunne ban, McGrath injury, Quigley injury, Forder injury (who was carrying it for some time apparently) and even yesterday, Barrett injury all be it after the game was settled.

    So are these flashes of what could be there enough for a 2nd year? I honestly dont know.

    We have leaders on the pitch. Barrett and Maher I though both stood up again yesterday. Noel McGrath worked and worked. He is still just a classy player and a true leader. But Heffernan and Breen did not perform as needed as senior players. McCormack worked but his form is not there. Forde was very good. Glimpses of what a fit Forde can be but rather than an out and out General, he is more of a marquee forward 0-5 from play. Jake Morris worked very hard all day, 1-2 from play. Kehoe had a thankless task and still caused trouble up front. He didnt score but set up the goal and won the penalty. There was a lot asked of him yesterday. I thought he did well. Morgan and Stakelum did ok, they're rookies. What I am getting at is the pieces are there, but the structure doesnt seem to be, not even a hint of one yesterday and thats the worry. S&C is also a worry. So are we only lacking in these areas and can the current management over come those issues? Im not sure.

    I was very anti Cahill after his decision last year. His failure at Waterford though, is less a reflection on him and more on the Watreford players as this is not the first time this has happened. And its happened to multiple managers down there too. Should the door be open for him?

    Our personnel problems are in goals, half backs, midfield and half forward but only maybe 1 position per line I feel.

    If we could merge both Hogans we would have an all star goalie. One has good distribution, the other is a fantastic shot stopper. Its an area of worry, But do Clare or Waterford or Galway have any better, really?

    Get O'Mara into that team - half back line improves greatly. Ronan to 3, the full back line is strong. Byrne, Quirke, Cadell, McGrath, Quigley, Connolly all prospects still. Heffernan needs a rocket up his backside. The right manager can do that. He has so much hurling its a shame to see him waste years not fulfilling his potential. So there is depth enough in that back line to make a team out of them. A mix of leadership, physicality and athleticism.

    Midfield is an issue. Stakelum, Connolly, Connors?

    Forwards, Noel another year or two at 11. Bowe, McGrath, Forde, Bubbles for another year fit, Callanan for another year fit, O'Meara, Kehoe and Morris. Breen has a place, but maybe not always a starter. McCormack maybe less so at this stage.There is a team capable of challenging there.

    Have we the right management in charge to get whats there out of this team?

    Big changes needed regardless of who is in charge next year. Big changes in the championship will happen aswell. Dublin, Waterford, maybe Tipp, maybe Cork, maybe Kilkenny could all have new managers. Limerick management look stressed this year aswell, 6 years on the road for them.

    Believe it or not I feel Dublin, Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford and Limerick are also all on a downward trajectory. Obviously some starting from a much higher place than others. So not only is it a Tipp transition, it may be a championship wide transition and now is the time to get it right for next year and try to make hay from 2023 to 25 or 26. We have been in decline since 2020, we now need to start our ascent a year or two before the others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭ nklc


    Was in agreement with you until you got to the forwards. Bubbles and Seamie have not competed at club level for a couple of years now . Jason was putrid all year except for yesterday on the score board, don’t think he worked too hard when he didn’t have the ball but 5 points is a great return . S&C seems to be coming against us lately . Hard to convince Tipp people to believe in s&c instead of The wrists but when you’re competing against teams that have both, then you’re at a disadvantage in tight games . For the people that say Liam sheedy should have moved some of the old guard , should that include Noel mcgrath, don’t think so



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 challengerbell


    I think Forde was injured or managing an injury from just before the Waterford game. But I may be wrong on that. Sunday was closer to his true ability. Able to win his own ball. Able to score from anywhere. Maybe not one to rally a team but his scoring ability can motivate all around him. He caught one in the 2nd half above 3 fellas, darted towards the middle of the field and arrowed over the bar. Something McCormack, Browne etc cant do. 5 from play yesterday, 7 from play in last years Munster final.

    There was times yesterday in the 1st 20 mins where we tried to swing a few over under a little pressure and to watch them fall short or drift wide I was saying to myself how we needed a Bubbles out there. The sad thing is, a fit Forde stays on frees and penalties, we probably go 7 points up, and a fit Bubbles we probably tack on 2 or 3 more scores in that 1st 20 mins. We still lose but not as badly. On the flip side it masks the lack of fitness/intensity/effort and game plan.

    Tipp people need to be convinced about S&C because we have the wrists that other counties dont have. If we could come close to the intensity and work rate Clare bring but with a better game plan to our non existent one now, its our skill that pushes us ahead. At the moment we are so far off on game plan and condition and intensity we cant get close enough for our skill to make the difference. People might say how no one from Tipp would make the Limerick team. Fully fit, Id have Noel or Forde or Bubbles over Flanagan or Mulcahy or Morrissey or O'Neill every day. Limericks forward dominance comes from 3 sources; Lynch, Hegarty and Gillane. Life for the others around them is made much easier by these 3.



  • Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭ farmerval


    The S&C coach since 2019 left this year, think he/they went to the Limerick academy. When the S&C coach from 2016and before went to Galway we suffered badly for two years. We played two league finals under Michael Ryan where the players looked like they'd ran a marathon that morning.

    Whoever did it this year didn't get it right, coming toward half time against Waterford we appeared to be blowing hard, not a good place to be with matches coming thick and fast and little recovery time in between.



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    If Kerry beat Antrim we will play Kerry in a promotion/regulation playoff

    how has come to this?

    the pressure on the tipp players would be crippling in such an event , we might lose it



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka



    a man clearly rattled, please god Darren gleeson gives us a helping hand



  • Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ evolvingtipperary101


    If Tipp folded after ten minutes against Cork, how can S&C be an issue as so many claim? They went for 62 mins against Limerick and beaten by a savvy outfit. It's psychological and not anything to do with S&C.


    That's why it's down to the players mostly for me, you can go 62 mins against Limerick. But you miss a penalty and fold after ten minutes? Nothing to do with fitness.

    I'm not giving Bonnar a pass by saying that either, that's why I'm calling for an independent body to interview the players to find out what's going on. It's badly needed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭ tooka


    It’s a mixture of poor management , bad S&C and some very poor performances from the senior players

    hand on heart can anyone say bonnar was the right choice, we all know deep down he is out of his league

    Ronan Maher, Kennedy Heffernan McCormack forde and Breen were absent over the 4 games. You have to blame the players for that



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  • Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭ supernova5




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