Van Morrison duet with Ian Paisley Jnr.

MeepMeep2021

MeepMeep2021 wrote: »

Language like 'genius' is thrown around with comical abandon when it comes to musicians. :pac:

It's what turns so many of them into insufferable twats, like Van.

So your post has it all and hits the nail on the head, even if you didn't make the connection.

He’s generally considered a musical genius. As far as modem popular music goes anyway. Astral weeks is certainly great.

Loafing Oaf

Now that Van's palling round with the DUP, can we expect his next release to be "Sammy Wilson Said"?

Dempo1

olestoepoke wrote: »

Fair enough, but I suggest you go back to you original post calling his music ****e and insert the words "In my opinion"

Apologies, his music is Gik, S****, whiny and ear piercing, "In My Humble Opinion"

10000maniacs

MeepMeep2021 wrote: »

Language like 'genius' is thrown around with comical abandon when it comes to musicians. :pac:

It's what turns so many of them into insufferable twats, like Van.

So your post has it all and hits the nail on the head, even if you didn't make the connection.

You analyse a lot of his lyrics and they boil down to muddled garbage. Not genius, just gibberish.
"We were born before the wind".....What?
It was the session musicians who shaped his crowning achievement Astral Weeks, check out the Bang Masters version of Astral Weeks and you will know what I mean.
A lot of his 80's and 90's material is derived from other artists.
Listen to "Queen of the Slipstream" and then to Odyssey's "If you are Looking for a way out". It's almost Van doing Karaoke.

olestoepoke

Tork wrote: »

I've always thought he was over-rated and that he got away with being an arsehole because journalists fawned over him. Is he really that talented or are people giving him too much leeway based on some albums he made decades ago?

The Last Waltz is hailed as one of the greatest documentary concert films ever made. In 2019, the film was selected by the Library of Congress for preservation in the National Film Registry for being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant. Martin Scorsese's movie had the likes of muddy waters, Eric Clapton, Bob Dylan, Neil young, Neil diamond to name a few. Eric Clapton along with many many critics wrote that Van Morrison "Stole the show" in what was a gathering of the worlds most talented and successful musicians in the world. Van the man is a tool and by all means attack the mans character but anyone doubting his musical talent hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

Gregor Samsa

It’s weird. I’ve a vivid memory from my childhood of seeing a televised duet of Van and Shane MacGowan singing “Gloria”, but at the chorus, Shano kept shouting “G.L.O.I.R.A.”

Can’t find a video or reference to it anywhere, so now I don’t know if it really happened or not.

olestoepoke

10000maniacs wrote: »

You analyse a lot of his lyrics and they boil down to muddled garbage. Not genius, just gibberish.
"We were born before the wind".....What?
It was the session musicians who shaped his crowning achievement Astral Weeks, check out the Bang Masters version of Astral Weeks and you will know what I mean.
A lot of his 80's and 90's material is derived from other artists.
Listen to "Queen of the Slipstream" and then to Odyssey's "If you are Looking for a way out". It's almost Van doing Karaoke.

Would you also consider much of what Bob Dylan has written "muddled garbage"? And if so do you also question his talent or genius?

Genre..

olestoepoke wrote: »

Would you also consider much of what Bob Dylan has written "muddled garbage"? And if so do you also question his talent or genius?

I can still listen to Dylan

Can't listen to Van anymore

Gregor Samsa

olestoepoke wrote: »

The Last Waltz is hailed as one of the greatest documentary concert films ever made. In 2019, the film was selected by the Library of Congress for preservation in the National Film Registry for being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant.

So what you’re saying is that it’s up there with Shrek.

https://www.vulture.com/2020/12/national-film-registry-2020-dark-knight-grease-and-shrek.html

olestoepoke

Genre.. wrote: »

I can still listen to Dylan

Can't listen to Van anymore

That didnt answer the question, nicely dodged answering it in fact.

Genre..

olestoepoke wrote: »

That didnt answer the question, nicely dodged answering it in fact.

Bod Dylan is powerful and poetic

Unlike van imo

The J Stands for Jay

Dempo1 wrote: »

Always thought Van Morrison was a cantankerous oaf and cared liitle about anything but himself, Arrogant, belligerent are two other discriptions that come to mind. I suppose this performance (if you could call it that) typifies what the odious G** he is.

Did I mention his music is whiney S**** also

All the crap he saw happening around him over the years, and not one protests song. Someone tries to stop people from contracting a barus during a global pandemic and he decides it's too much .

The J Stands for Jay

The Master wrote: »

Fair play to Van for standing up for something he believes in....

He's a musician who's lived through the US civil rights movement and of course The Troubles without writing a song about it

But ask the cúnt to wash his hands and he releases a protest album and tries to take the country to court

This is much better than what I wrote.

olestoepoke

Genre.. wrote: »

Bod Dylan is powerful and poetic

Unlike van imo

What about Dylans lyrics? Are they "Muddled garbage" too?

endacl

olestoepoke wrote: »

The Last Waltz is hailed as one of the greatest documentary concert films ever made. In 2019, the film was selected by the Library of Congress for preservation in the National Film Registry for being "culturally, historically, or aesthetically significant. Martin Scorsese's movie had the likes of muddy waters, Eric Clapton, Bob Dylan, Neil young, Neil diamond to name a few. Eric Clapton along with many many critics wrote that Van Morrison "Stole the show" in what was a gathering of the worlds most talented and successful musicians in the world. Van the man is a tool and by all means attack the mans character but anyone doubting his musical talent hasn't a clue what they are talking about.

Jersey Shore is also in the Library of Congress. I wouldn’t lean on that as a barometer of brilliance…

KaneToad

I love Van's music. I wish I had a fraction of his talent.

As a person, from what I've read, he's not someone I would ever like to spend time with. I'm sure he's devastated to hear that...

ginoginelli

10000maniacs wrote: »

You analyse a lot of his lyrics and they boil down to muddled garbage. Not genius, just gibberish.
"We were born before the wind".....What?
It was the session musicians who shaped his crowning achievement Astral Weeks, check out the Bang Masters version of Astral Weeks and you will know what I mean.
A lot of his 80's and 90's material is derived from other artists.
Listen to "Queen of the Slipstream" and then to Odyssey's "If you are Looking for a way out". It's almost Van doing Karaoke.

A lot of great songs have nonsensical lyrics but the melodies more than make up for jt.

As for sessions musicians and borrowing/stealing from other artists. Everyone does that. The Beatles, THe Stones, Bowie, I could go on and on.

That's how basically every song is made. An artist takes something and puts his/her spin on it Theres no originals.

Veedon fleece is better than astral weeks btw imo. The whole album is magical.

Genre..

ginoginelli wrote: »

A lot of great songs have nonsensical lyrics but the melodies more than make up for jt.

As for sessions musicians and borrowing/stealing from other artists. Everyone does that. The Beatles, THe Stones, Bowie, I could go on and on.

That's how basically every song is made. An artist takes something and puts his/her spin on it Theres no originals.

Veedon fleece is better than astral weeks btw imo. The whole album is magical.

True enough

Even Einstein with his original thought was largely working off existing material

Ash.J.Williams

Van made it big in LA and would have been something the doors aspired to be , just to give it some context

Ash.J.Williams

Genre.. wrote: »

True enough

Even Einstein with his original thought was largely working off existing material

There are originals it’s just the public generally don’t understand it , they’re what’s known as “bands bands “

Ash.J.Williams

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Van made it big in LA and would have been something the doors aspired to be , just to give it some context

That's a weird take. History is the judge of these things and somehow I think The Doors have had maybe a tiny little bit more of a cultural impact and more of an influence on other musicians than Van.

Bands like Wire and Silver Apples have had more of an influence on other musicians than the likes of Van.

elperello

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44wDwMQVqCc

Turn it up !!

Genre..

Genre.. wrote: »

True enough

Even Einstein with his original thought was largely working off existing material

Yes, but that is in the nature of science. It takes a genius to cut through centuries of 'understanding' and improve upon and expand it.


Van didn't genre bust or fuse, didn't create a new genre, and didn't stretch music in any way.

olestoepoke

endacl wrote: »

Jersey Shore is also in the Library of Congress. I wouldn’t lean on that as a barometer of brilliance…

Ok so probably a bad point to make but that doesn't take away from how that concert was and is regarded and the talent that was on show.

olestoepoke

Who are "Wire" or "silver apples" ? I genuinely never heard of them

Rothko

olestoepoke wrote: »

Who are "Wire" or "silver apples" ? I genuinely never heard of them

Silver Apples were one of the very first electronic bands. Way ahead of their time.

Wire are one of the best post-punk bands ever. Their first three albums are amazing.

olestoepoke

elperello wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44wDwMQVqCc

Turn it up !!

What a performance, look at the faces on Robertson, Danko and Helm as he drops the mic. "Stole the show" in a show made up of some of the greatest musicians that ever lived.

olestoepoke

olestoepoke wrote: »

Who are "Wire" or "silver apples" ? I genuinely never heard of them

Thanks for the q.. I'm listening to Pink Flag again now as a result

olestoepoke

MeepMeep2021 wrote: »

Yes, but that is in the nature of science. It takes a genius to cut through centuries of 'understanding' and improve upon and expand it.


Van didn't genre bust or fuse, didn't create a new genre, and didn't stretch music in any way.

Astral Weeks turns 50 this month. What a record. Lester Bangs, in perhaps the greatest piece of rock criticism ever written, poetically referred to the 1968 Van Morrison album as a “beacon, a light on the far shores of the murk.” Greil Marcus, less poetically, called it “a profoundly intellectual album,” and meant it as a compliment. Both would agree that Astral Weeks is one of the best 47-minute pieces of music ever created. A landmark in the fusion of rock and jazz. A masterpiece.

Seems two of the worlds most respected musical and cultural critics disagree with you. Honestly, defending Van's musical talent against ignorant people who cant see past their own personal dislike is the easiest task in the world.

olestoepoke

olestoepoke wrote: »

Seems two of the worlds most respected musical and cultural critics disagree with you. Honestly, defending Van's musical talent against ignorant people who cant see past their own personal dislike is the easiest task in the world.

:pac: Respected music critic... surely qualifies as an oxymoron? Music critics are synonomous with poor writing and gushing praise and are among the least respected people in the cultural sphere, especially among musicians.

EDit to add: I don't deny his talent. Calling him a genius is just ridiculous though.