My Well Built Shed Project

The Continental Op

listermint wrote: »

Wrong nails it wrong technique. You should never have to predrill a nail for framing, That's a tad bizarre.

I started to explain exactly why I said that and how I make sheds but then decided not to waste my time as you haven't yet explained your correct technique.

dodzy

The Continental Op wrote: »

I started to explain exactly why I said that and how I make sheds but then decided not to waste my time as you haven't yet explained your correct technique.

Hit the fu*ker as hard as you can & hit it square.

air

Collated nails from a nail gun are about half the diameter of the typical old school "6in" nails (3.1mm vs 6mm diameter) so splitting isn't really an issue when using them for framing.

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/paslode-galvanised-plus-im360-collated-nails-3-1-x-90mm-2200-pack/490fv

https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-exterior-nails-outdoor-green-corrosion-resistant-6-x-150mm-0-25kg-pack/84952

chooseusername

The Continental Op wrote: »

I use screws for framing but have used nails in the past. One thing I'd recommend with nails is predrilling holes for any you are putting near end grain to stop splitting. Same for screws.

It's counterintuitive I know, but a couple of taps to blunt the nail helps.

air

chooseusername wrote: »

It's counterintuitive I know, but a couple of taps to blunt the nail helps.

Further motivation to use a nail gun, a few more seconds saved for each fixing.

The Continental Op

air wrote: »

Further motivation to use a nail gun, a few more seconds saved for each fixing.

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

Lumen

The Continental Op wrote: »

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

Isn't that what skew-nailing is for?

The Continental Op

Lumen wrote: »

Isn't that what skew-nailing is for?

OK so it depends on your build method.

I make everything in sections on the flat. The guys I know that make sheds as a business use 8ft x8ft benches, I've got a 8ft x 4 ft.

When you have access to the ends because you are working on the flat you have access to the bottom of the bottom rail and the top of the top rail so why would you do a half arsed job by skew nailing. 4inch nails or 100mm screw straight in from top or bottom.

Lumen

The Continental Op wrote: »

OK so it depends on your build method.

I make everything in sections on the flat. The guys I know that make sheds as a business use 8ft x8ft benches, I've got a 8ft x 4 ft.

When you have access to the ends because you are working on the flat you have access to the bottom of the bottom rail and the top of the top rail so why would you do a half arsed job by skew nailing. 4inch nails or 100mm screw straight in from top or bottom.

Yeah, maybe I have it mixed up with adding studs to a house.

Would a couple of 90mm nails from a Paslode or whatever not do the end nailing securely enough? That would give almost 2 inches of penetration.

I'm surprised that the pros use screws given the cost.

Seve OB

Lots of lingo in here that I don’t quite understand.

So am I using screws or nails guys?

I have an impact driver and a fair few good quality 120mm, 80mm and 70mm screws lying around.

Will either be using 3*2 or 4*2 for the framing (not decided yet) but surely it’s the 2 that counts when deciding on length of screw/nail? I’m thinking 80mm be the job?

The Continental Op

Seve OB wrote: »

Lots of lingo in here that I don’t quite understand.

So am I using screws or nails guys?

I have an impact driver and a fair few good quality 120mm, 80mm and 70mm screws lying around.

Will either be using 3*2 or 4*2 for the framing (not decided yet) but surely it’s the 2 that counts when deciding on length of screw/nail? I’m thinking 80mm be the job?

You can use either. Your first decision needs to be whether you make the shed in sections like one you'd buy or if you make it as you go along (so you'd make your walls upright in their final positions). I like making the sides and ends flat on the ground (or on a bench or on a flat floor like the floor of your shed) you can get everything square.

For your size of shed I think 3*2 will be fine, but with either you will be joining 2 inch thick timber bottom rails and top rails to your studs so 80mm screws won't have much end grain to grip in the studs.

The studs are the uprights. Edit> refer here and the diagram on the right for some of the terms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_stud I say rail sometimes instead of plate.

100mm would be better if you aren't skew nailing. What I tend to do is use one 120mm screw for grip and to pull the joints tight then one 80mm screw to stop the joint twisting. Mainly because a box of 120mm screws is expensive.

Regarding insulation if that is going to be a priority the 4*3 will give a lot more room for insulation.

air

The Continental Op wrote: »

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

I have built a few large enough structures timber frame and never used a single screw for the stud work.
I've never seen one in a commercially built timber frame either.

Seve OB

I would hope to build each wall and clad them flat on the ground. That way I will be able to get it as close into the corner as possible

dodzy

Seve, 80mm is fine. Bear in mind that they naturally countersink so you’re getting plenty of purchase on 44mm timber. . I used 80mm throughout on 4x2 vertical framing with 6x2 roof and floor. I did throw a few 120mm in to pull the 4 sides together once upright, mainly because I had them there.

Seve OB

Right. Old shed is empty and ready to come down. This weekend is going to see the start of the project proper, digging will commence!!!!

Plan is to make a raft. Will dig out about a foot all around. Fill with 4 inches or so of hardcore 804. Use a whacker plate. Then cover that with some sort of damp proofing. A rebar grid sitting on 2 inch pegs and fill with 4 inches of cement.

I was going to make it slightly bigger than the shed area. As in run it right up to the boundary fence. But also about a foot wide path around the shed walls which will be in the garden. Somewhere I’d be putting plant pots etc ..... hope I’m explaining correctly

Thoughts??

The Continental Op

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

Seve OB

The Continental Op wrote: »

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

Lantus

Seve OB wrote: »

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

https://youtu.be/hiHwXI8ujDo

Some great resources available. Check out this start to finish build project.

The Continental Op

Seve OB wrote: »

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

I'm sure someone will be able to give you the correct way to do it but I just put 50mm polystyrene foam insulation bats under the concrete.

Another way for you may be to do your foundation then dpc across it with a single brick wall around the edge. Cover floor with 50mm or 100mm polystyrene then a vapour barrier then a particle or plywood floor. Then build the wooden part of the shed off the wall and overlap the wall with the bottom shiplap board.

Seve OB

The Continental Op wrote: »

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

I’ve looked up a bit on YouTube and Dr Google. The Ali link earlier on is no good as his is a floating timber floor.
Then all I could find was people adding insulation on top of concrete slabs!
Finally found a few though. Honestly it’s adding a good bit more work and cost. Is it really necessary? I’m thinking not as this is a garden workshop (fair enough there may well end up being a beer fridge and a dart board strategically placed) but it’s not going to be a garden room/office/ living space.
So I don’t think insulation is necessary........ but what do I know?????

Lumen

Regarding floor insulation, this is good.

Thermal mass can be a bit of a curse in a room which is only used occasionally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjgSXDBsqdQ

Seve OB

so no insulation then

one thing i hadn't picked up before was the layer of sand blinding in between the 804 & DPM. would an inch be ok? any particular type of sand to use? is this ok?

Rebar, some have told me it is overkill and I don't need it. what you guys think?

Looking at this

So 2 of these €100 or I could maybe even get away with just a single one?... Or should I get a thicker one?

The Continental Op

I'd put in the insulation so you don't have a cold floor that will attract condensation. The floor is still a thermal mass even if it is a mass of cold concrete. But I'd only do that if you are insulating the walls and roof.

Seve OB

The Continental Op wrote: »

I'd put in the insulation so you don't have a cold floor that will attract condensation. The floor is still a thermal mass even if it is a mass of cold concrete. But I'd only do that if you are insulating the walls and roof.

i will eventually insulate the walls and roof, just maybe not immediately (cost & time)

what would you stick down? 50mm EPS or would you go 50mm PIR @ about €90 more expensive?

The Continental Op

I'd use polystyrene as in 50mm EPS.

The other option is to design the floor so you can add the insulation later. Really just needs either a brick high wall around the edge or a 50mm deep timber so you have something for the insulation to drop into. Obviously you'll have a 50mm step down until you put the insulation in.

Its really down to how much effort you want to put into the whole think how long it will last and what you are going to use if for.

10-10-20

Seve OB wrote: »

so no insulation then

one thing i hadn't picked up before was the layer of sand blinding in between the 804 & DPM. would an inch be ok? any particular type of sand to use? is this ok?

That's there to fill in the sub-grade and bind it and protect the membrane from punctures, effectively. Coarse or grit sand.
https://www.pavingexpert.com/subbase

Rebar, some have told me it is overkill and I don't need it. what you guys think?

Looking at this

So 2 of these €100 or I could maybe even get away with just a single one?... Or should I get a thicker one?

Section "preparing to lay" covers this off:
https://www.pavingexpert.com/concrete
So as long as your slab is 100mm or greater and not excessively sprawling and spot-unsupported, you don't need mesh.

10-10-20

Don't forget to think about how you are getting power out to this thing - you may need to install pipework to allow the routing of cables through the slab now.

Seve OB

10-10-20 wrote: »

Don't forget to think about how you are getting power out to this thing - you may need to install pipework to allow the routing of cables through the slab now.

there is a cable already buried about a foot deep but it's just a spur off a socket so the plan will be to ditch than and run something back to the fuse board.
i was going to just run an armoured cable or something in a conduit along the fence and drill a hole in the shed wall.......maybe not the best idea now i think about it!

Lumen

Seve OB wrote: »

there is a cable already buried about a foot deep but it's just a spur off a socket so the plan will be to ditch than and run something back to the fuse board.
i was going to just run an armoured cable or something in a conduit along the fence and drill a hole in the shed wall.......maybe not the best idea now i think about it!

If you want to do it by the book, then you need to either bury the cable deep (which is a lot of effort) or just clip it to the fence.

It surprised me to discover the latter was acceptable, but it makes sense, because if you can see an armoured cable you're less likely to cut it accidentally.

Seve OB

Lumen wrote: »

If you want to do it by the book, then you need to either bury the cable deep (which is a lot of effort) or just clip it to the fence.

It surprised me to discover the latter was acceptable, but it makes sense, because if you can see an armoured cable you're less likely to cut it accidentally.

It will be clipped to the fence so. However I might run it down the fence and under the slab as opposed to my original lazy idea of just drilling through my lovely new build