My Well Built Shed Project

Seve OB

So I've a small crappy barna shed that is rotting all over the place and I need to replace it pretty urgently now. I had considered a block shed, but I'll be doing it myself and as I've never laid blocks before (well other than a patio wall) I feel more confident in building a timber frame. It will be a shed to house the usual garden stuff, but hopefully also a place where I can walk into and potter away with some DIY projects. I've got some nice woodworking tools/tables, but at the moment everytime I want to use them I've to take them out and assemble the table in the garden.... so it's rare I use it....to much hassle if I have a little project I am considering, especially in my muddy garden with all the rain we seem to get!

Maybe I'll even build it to a spec high enough to upgrade it to an outdoor room at some stage. I'm not planning to insulate it straight away but it will be on the cards. It will have electricity to house a (beer fridge but don't tell the wife) freezer, lights inside and out, power tools and as we will also be upgrading our outdoor dining area which is next to it, will want wire it for an outdoor an electric heater. So I will put in a fuse board and get it wired back to the main house board.

I want to give it a high clearance and as I've seen my previous one rot at the ground level (despite being raised on blocks) and a recent episode of some furry visitors, I am going to clear the existing shed area, right into the corner and lay a concrete foundation. This will make sure I am not to high for the neighbours.

This it a couple of very crude Sketch up ideas I've drawn up with early plans. I think we are leaning to a mix of the two ideas. Simple pitch roof with the door at the corner and do away with any window. It will be 3 meters wide and 4 meters deep. Height at the back 9 foot and pitching at the front to 11 foot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxKuJZ3ly-A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXp6hvKnOXM

I want to get it finished for €4k which is probably a pipe dream, but doing everything myself (well a few burgers and beers may be offered to friends for a few dig outs) should be able to keep my costs down. I think my plan to clad it with shiplap will be the deciding factor of going over/under budget.

con747

Plenty of threads on here, this one will help you a bit. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058075242 It's a garden room but will give you some idea's and costs.

Seve OB

con747 wrote: »

Plenty of threads on here, this one will help you a bit. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058075242 It's a garden room but will give you some idea's and costs.

thanks, was following that thread and already got the idea of putting the door in an an angle from Rob

I have some form, here is previous small 2 story shed I built. Bikes underneath and a few bits and bobs up top

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117259215#post117259215

Seve OB

Some pics of what I have at the moment. The bamboo stick is roughly where the corner will be. Hope to get the old shed emptied over the next week or so and then I can take it down and start digging out the foundation for new structure.

As you can see, there was a gap up the side and behind the previous one. But I want to get the new lad shoved into the corner as tight as possible. Am thinking of building the 4 walls flat on the ground and then just lifting them into place, pre clad.









sorry about the last one, it keeps flipping me whatever way it uploads

Seve OB

I want height in the shed (let’s call it future proofing)
My garden slopes up from the house, might be about 2 foot. More than this picture shows because I’ve levelled (ish) off the grass. I’ve not measured this yet but reckon it might be 4 -6 inches in difference. I’m going to lower the base to the same height as top step here

future plan to do something with the grass to level it off from the step to the shed

listermint

Word of note. Timber prices are gone a bit mad at the moment so your costs versus the other threads will have significantly raised.

Lumen

Good luck!

It is going to look absolutely enormous. That's what you want, right?

championc

If that garden is south facing, then depending on your proposed size, you may have room for at least 4 solar panels on the roof of it, which could be a nice solar starter

dodzy

I’d seriously consider skipping the concrete base and use footings. More than capable with the added advantage of cost and labour saving.. pulse you get your ‘above ground’ clearance.

11ft high at the front is a monster. Mock it up with a couple of timber lengths stood vertically and a cross piece, just to stand back and gauge appearance.

Lantus

Use some good paint instead of that red water slop.

Try cuprinol outdoor paint on fences and use the colour trend woodstain on your shed. Remember you can mix any colour you like.

On my shed I'm 4 years in and it's still a great finish and really waterproof.

Also consider tounge and groove panels. A little more but such a nicer finish and really clean and modern. Will try and dig out a pic.

Edit. Can't see any dpc on your block which may explain rot as blocks will soak up ground water.

iwillhtfu

Looking forward to another build. As mentioned already the height will be considerable which may be an issue for the neighbours. I'd guesstimate that tree behind is about 11', any reason for the height?

OI I were doing it myself I'd probably go wider across the back than into the garden it'll also provide a bit of privacy.

mloc123

listermint wrote: »

Word of note. Timber prices are gone a bit mad at the moment so your costs versus the other threads will have significantly raised.

Yeah... I had planned to build a garden room this year, the spreadsheet I used to cost up timber in February now shows that most lengths have gone up 30% or so since. Gonna shelve it for this year I think.

Seve OB

iwillhtfu wrote: »

Looking forward to another build. As mentioned already the height will be considerable which may be an issue for the neighbours. I'd guesstimate that tree behind is about 11', any reason for the height?

OI I were doing it myself I'd probably go wider across the back than into the garden it'll also provide a bit of privacy.

Area to the left of pics will be upgraded to a decent outdoor living area and is the best spot for sun in our garden so unfortunately wider ain’t an option.

I might want to swing a golf club in her at some stage so hence the reason for wanting height........ but don’t tell the wife

Pity about the price increases but sure it’s what it is

Lumen

Here's a rough scale mockup. :pac:

dodzy

Plastic T&G cladding cheaper than wood; easy to fit, comes in multiple colours and zero maintenance.

Seve OB

Lol. I just threw a tape measure up!
We’ll take it down a bit

Lantus

I'd allow for gutters on a roof that size as well.

Seve OB

so I'm probably going to use 44*75 for the frame
will most likely be nailing it together .... its the best way yes?
no nail gun here so i'll be going old fashioned with a hammer... going to buy a decent one
what nails will i use?
was thinking 80 mm galvanised?

[URL="https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009HQRGWS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&psc=1[/URL]

thoughts?

Seve OB

so I'm probably going to use 44*75 for the frame
will most likely be nailing it together .... its the best way yes?
no nail gun here so i'll be going old fashioned with a hammer... going to buy a decent one
what nails will i use?
was thinking 80 mm galvanised?

found this on amazon, 75mm

dodzy

Seve OB wrote: »

so I'm probably going to use 44*75 for the frame
will most likely be nailing it together .... its the best way yes?
no nail gun here so i'll be going old fashioned with a hammer... going to buy a decent one
what nails will i use?
was thinking 80 mm galvanised?

found this on amazon, 75mm

Screws - 4x80mm plus impact driver. Skip the nails. Easier to make adjustments on the fly. plus 4x2 as opposed to 3x2 for framing with 6 x 2 for roof joists. Obviously cost would increase but crunch the numbers and see how you get on. You’re targeting 4K I think, all in? For a 12sq mtr finished? I got out for €4.5 for 5 x 2.5mtr (similar footprint). Based on current material prices, I’d set aside another 1.5 grand at least, if I could.

Lumen

dodzy wrote: »

Screws - 4x80mm plus impact driver. Skip the nails. Easier to make adjustments on the fly. plus 4x2 as opposed to 3x2 for framing with 6 x 2 for roof joists. Obviously cost would increase but crunch the numbers and see how you get on. You’re targeting 4K I think, all in? For a 12sq mtr finished? I got out for €4.5 for 5 x 2.5mtr (similar footprint). Based on current material prices, I’d set aside another 1.5 grand at least, if I could.

I realise the screws vs nails thing is a bit controversial, but I'd use nails for framing and screws for sheeting. Nails are bendy which makes the studs easier to align and adjust with brute force (boot or hammer).

air

Not to mention that screws have terrible shear strength so are not really used by anyone for framing.

Seve OB

So if I go with nails are those ones which i linked any good?

Also why 4*2 over 3*2?

I was going to use 3*2 for the roof also. Why should this be more?

Lumen

Check rafter span tables. 3x2 sounds hugely under spec for rafters.

For the walls, meh. It won't fall over with 3x2 but you'll probably have an easier time finding insulation if you use 4x2.

Galvanized nails for treated timber, ordinary wire nails for clean timber. 100mm nails for 4x2s, 75mm prob won't be long enough for skew nailing. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that)

air

90mm nails are the way to go for 4x2s (44mm thick).
I'd advise getting a pneumatic framing nailer to drive them, you'll build the shed in a fraction of the time and your neighbours will be thankful.
You can run one from a cheap lidl / aldi compressor and you can easily sell it afterwards.
You could then use smaller nails to install the sheathing also.
Personally I think pouring a slab is a no brainer and it'll probably be cheaper now with the price of timber.

Seve OB

air wrote: »

your neighbours will be thankful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QK3EwG21zo

dodzy

air wrote: »

Not to mention that screws have terrible shear strength so are not really used by anyone for framing.

They’re not used simply due to cost. Nails are cheaper and as someone here brilliantly put it a while back, the battery in a hammer lasts all day. There’s bugger all shear force in any part of the stud wall/flat roof structure proposed by the OP. Screws are far more forgiving, particularly for the majority of people here who are non-professionals and would gladly accept the quick ‘undo/redo’ benefits the screw/impact driver pairing offer.

air

It's not simply down to cost alone, while the OPs structure may not be very large, timber frame is used for plenty of houses and bigger structures.
These would not be signed off on if they were built with screws.

You'd also be screwing into end grain fixing studs to wall and sole plates.

You'd need to drill pilot holes through the plates if you're using decent sized screws, or you'll risk splitting them - especially near the ends.
You also risk them not pulling together without gaps.

There's plenty of scope to line up framing and get it right before shooting a nail into it and in my experience there's a lot less chance of things coming out of line as it goes in instantly.

Each to their own anyway, just giving my two cents, screws are weaker, slower, more expensive and just not suited to framing in my opinion.

The Continental Op

I use screws for framing but have used nails in the past. One thing I'd recommend with nails is predrilling holes for any you are putting near end grain to stop splitting. Same for screws.

listermint

The Continental Op wrote: »

I use screws for framing but have used nails in the past. One thing I'd recommend with nails is predrilling holes for any you are putting near end grain to stop splitting. Same for screws.

Wrong nails it wrong technique. You should never have to predrill a nail for framing, That's a tad bizarre.

Lumen

listermint wrote: »

Wrong nails it wrong technique. You should never have to predrill a nail for framing, That's a tad bizarre.

... unless they're 6" nails, which is admittedly unusual, but occasionally handy.

The Continental Op

listermint wrote: »

Wrong nails it wrong technique. You should never have to predrill a nail for framing, That's a tad bizarre.

I started to explain exactly why I said that and how I make sheds but then decided not to waste my time as you haven't yet explained your correct technique.

dodzy

The Continental Op wrote: »

I started to explain exactly why I said that and how I make sheds but then decided not to waste my time as you haven't yet explained your correct technique.

Hit the fu*ker as hard as you can & hit it square.

air

Collated nails from a nail gun are about half the diameter of the typical old school "6in" nails (3.1mm vs 6mm diameter) so splitting isn't really an issue when using them for framing.

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/paslode-galvanised-plus-im360-collated-nails-3-1-x-90mm-2200-pack/490fv

https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-exterior-nails-outdoor-green-corrosion-resistant-6-x-150mm-0-25kg-pack/84952

chooseusername

The Continental Op wrote: »

I use screws for framing but have used nails in the past. One thing I'd recommend with nails is predrilling holes for any you are putting near end grain to stop splitting. Same for screws.

It's counterintuitive I know, but a couple of taps to blunt the nail helps.

air

chooseusername wrote: »

It's counterintuitive I know, but a couple of taps to blunt the nail helps.

Further motivation to use a nail gun, a few more seconds saved for each fixing.

The Continental Op

air wrote: »

Further motivation to use a nail gun, a few more seconds saved for each fixing.

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

Lumen

The Continental Op wrote: »

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

Isn't that what skew-nailing is for?

The Continental Op

Lumen wrote: »

Isn't that what skew-nailing is for?

OK so it depends on your build method.

I make everything in sections on the flat. The guys I know that make sheds as a business use 8ft x8ft benches, I've got a 8ft x 4 ft.

When you have access to the ends because you are working on the flat you have access to the bottom of the bottom rail and the top of the top rail so why would you do a half arsed job by skew nailing. 4inch nails or 100mm screw straight in from top or bottom.

Lumen

The Continental Op wrote: »

OK so it depends on your build method.

I make everything in sections on the flat. The guys I know that make sheds as a business use 8ft x8ft benches, I've got a 8ft x 4 ft.

When you have access to the ends because you are working on the flat you have access to the bottom of the bottom rail and the top of the top rail so why would you do a half arsed job by skew nailing. 4inch nails or 100mm screw straight in from top or bottom.

Yeah, maybe I have it mixed up with adding studs to a house.

Would a couple of 90mm nails from a Paslode or whatever not do the end nailing securely enough? That would give almost 2 inches of penetration.

I'm surprised that the pros use screws given the cost.

Seve OB

Lots of lingo in here that I don’t quite understand.

So am I using screws or nails guys?

I have an impact driver and a fair few good quality 120mm, 80mm and 70mm screws lying around.

Will either be using 3*2 or 4*2 for the framing (not decided yet) but surely it’s the 2 that counts when deciding on length of screw/nail? I’m thinking 80mm be the job?

The Continental Op

Seve OB wrote: »

Lots of lingo in here that I don’t quite understand.

So am I using screws or nails guys?

I have an impact driver and a fair few good quality 120mm, 80mm and 70mm screws lying around.

Will either be using 3*2 or 4*2 for the framing (not decided yet) but surely it’s the 2 that counts when deciding on length of screw/nail? I’m thinking 80mm be the job?

You can use either. Your first decision needs to be whether you make the shed in sections like one you'd buy or if you make it as you go along (so you'd make your walls upright in their final positions). I like making the sides and ends flat on the ground (or on a bench or on a flat floor like the floor of your shed) you can get everything square.

For your size of shed I think 3*2 will be fine, but with either you will be joining 2 inch thick timber bottom rails and top rails to your studs so 80mm screws won't have much end grain to grip in the studs.

The studs are the uprights. Edit> refer here and the diagram on the right for some of the terms https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_stud I say rail sometimes instead of plate.

100mm would be better if you aren't skew nailing. What I tend to do is use one 120mm screw for grip and to pull the joints tight then one 80mm screw to stop the joint twisting. Mainly because a box of 120mm screws is expensive.

Regarding insulation if that is going to be a priority the 4*3 will give a lot more room for insulation.

air

The Continental Op wrote: »

Doesn't work for the main frame, try getting a nail gun to hold a 2inch thick bottom and top rail to a stud. Even the professionals use screws for the top and bottom rails of the frame.

I have built a few large enough structures timber frame and never used a single screw for the stud work.
I've never seen one in a commercially built timber frame either.

Seve OB

I would hope to build each wall and clad them flat on the ground. That way I will be able to get it as close into the corner as possible

dodzy

Seve, 80mm is fine. Bear in mind that they naturally countersink so you’re getting plenty of purchase on 44mm timber. . I used 80mm throughout on 4x2 vertical framing with 6x2 roof and floor. I did throw a few 120mm in to pull the 4 sides together once upright, mainly because I had them there.

Seve OB

Right. Old shed is empty and ready to come down. This weekend is going to see the start of the project proper, digging will commence!!!!

Plan is to make a raft. Will dig out about a foot all around. Fill with 4 inches or so of hardcore 804. Use a whacker plate. Then cover that with some sort of damp proofing. A rebar grid sitting on 2 inch pegs and fill with 4 inches of cement.

I was going to make it slightly bigger than the shed area. As in run it right up to the boundary fence. But also about a foot wide path around the shed walls which will be in the garden. Somewhere I’d be putting plant pots etc ..... hope I’m explaining correctly

Thoughts??

The Continental Op

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

Seve OB

The Continental Op wrote: »

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

Lantus

Seve OB wrote: »

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

https://youtu.be/hiHwXI8ujDo

Some great resources available. Check out this start to finish build project.

The Continental Op

Seve OB wrote: »

Ok, worth considering but I have no idea what to do. Can you explain how I would do it please

I'm sure someone will be able to give you the correct way to do it but I just put 50mm polystyrene foam insulation bats under the concrete.

Another way for you may be to do your foundation then dpc across it with a single brick wall around the edge. Cover floor with 50mm or 100mm polystyrene then a vapour barrier then a particle or plywood floor. Then build the wooden part of the shed off the wall and overlap the wall with the bottom shiplap board.

Seve OB

The Continental Op wrote: »

If you want to add some insulation to the floor now is obviously the time to think about it.

I’ve looked up a bit on YouTube and Dr Google. The Ali link earlier on is no good as his is a floating timber floor.
Then all I could find was people adding insulation on top of concrete slabs!
Finally found a few though. Honestly it’s adding a good bit more work and cost. Is it really necessary? I’m thinking not as this is a garden workshop (fair enough there may well end up being a beer fridge and a dart board strategically placed) but it’s not going to be a garden room/office/ living space.
So I don’t think insulation is necessary........ but what do I know?????