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Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

1567911

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Eamon Ryan in a tweet said it will be fully battery electric.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,615 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That appears to have been black holed due to being not particularly important. Overall backlog is down by about a third.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    So they have cleared 1,200 cases from their backlog. The article linked shows that the backlog was cleared over a two year period, but even if we're generous and recognise that there was a certain ramping up time associated with the recruitment of new staff and board members and assume that this backlog was cleared over 1 year, that suggests that APB will still take another two years to clear the backlog of existing cases at the current run rate. Do we even know what their approach is for clearing the backlog? are they working on new cases to current SLAs so that anything new going into the system isn't impacted by the delays and quarantining the backlog cases and clearing them down as a separate workflow?

    Surely it's reached a breaking point where they should just consider doing an amnesty and approve everything just to get back on track?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Well an amnesty would be a terrible idea and would lead to a host of substandard developments and inevitably legal issues



  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Ryan wants to send what I’m guessing is the second DART order to Cork in 2026: https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/munster/arid-41402068.html

    Blarney also apparently going to be a terminal station with a 3rd platform and charging infrastructure.

    Cork passenger numbers up 15% this year.

    Also seeing €300m mentioned for the current works underway - was this not originally around €185m?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    A planning amnesty for critical infrastructure for the next 5 years is warranted at this point.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BEMU's make a lot of sense, allows them to get service up and running as quickly as possible and thus not delayed by ABP decision making on a railway order.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Only if you want to spend the next 10 years in court fighting each case!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    That's some article in fairness………

    New battery electric trains could be running on Cork's new €1.6bn high-frequency commuter rail service within two years, the Transport Minister has pledged.

    €1.6bn ?????

    Some €300m is already being invested in a new through-platform at Kent Station.

    That must be some platform

    “We are here today to give Cork back what it had once — one of the world’s leading rail systems,” he said.

    Get a grip Eamonn

    “This is good news for Cork, but also for the whole country because Cork on the rise balances the country and makes for better-balanced regional development.”

    Eamonn get a grip. This is a long overdue improvement in the trains to Midleton and Blarney, not some transformative investment with widespread and large scale economic benefit across the region.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    It begars belief that this hasn't been moved on. It's about as non-contentious as you can get where infrastructure development is concerned and I understood that the key concerns had been addressed. That we have a supposedly pro-rail minister sitting idly by while this goes nowhere says a lot. It's a bit like the silence since ABP granted the RO for the Glounthane-Midleton double tracking, you'd have expected him to have the SI containing the commencement order ready to go instead of a six month and counting gap. None of this augurs well for the much more complicated and longer term job of delivering a light rail route across and through the city.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,547 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    It won't make trains any more frequent or faster to be fair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    It is definitely on record* that this will facilitate improved rail journey times I can’t remember where but I have a figure of 6-8 mins in my head as I remember thinking that it was 1+min per level crossing, and that it benefits the Cork-Limerick service as well as Cork-Dublin.

    There is also a huge safety benefit in completing this work. This cannot and shouldn’t be overlooked.

    *I’ll see if I can track down the source when I have more time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Haha I've had a very long week in work. Thought it was 2025, or just forgot how to add..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I think Eamon is spoofing about electric trains running in 2026. The Railway Order for the electrification infrastructure and new depot for the BEMU trains won't be submitted to ABP until the end of 2025. It'll hardly be approved and infrastructure built and in place for battery electric trains to be running in 2026.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,063 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    That application can't be taken as a benchmark, there is clearly some sort of complication with it. The far more complex and contentious BusConnects corridors in Dublin have been getting approval without much issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,547 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    How is it safer? Are the existing ones unsafe somehow?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I assume they could replace the existing trains with BEMU's without needing to build the new depot.

    I mean in terms of a 1 to 1 replacement of the existing fleet. Obviously to increase the number of trains significantly beyond that they will need a new depot. So he could be technically correct.

    Similar to how they can bring BEMU's to Drogheda and the Northern line without building a new depot or electrification.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    But you need charging infrastructure for these trains that costs money and needs planning. There is charging infrastructure needed in Drogheda to support the Northern Line trains that required planning permission. It's not a simple case of just plugging them in somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The current crossings are manned and are clearly less safe than not having them at all. Any potential interaction between road vehicles and trains is a safety consideration.

    The proposal would eliminate 6 of the 7 manned crossings on the line and convert the 7th one to an automated controlled one.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,978 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Every level crossing is a safety risk on the railway. Closing them eliminates that risk.

    Also, you asked about speeds - there are permanent speed restrictions on the railway associated with some of the crossings which will be removed following their elimination.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,978 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It’s not simply a new platform. Anything but.

    There has been significant demolition works of existing structures, the avoiding line has to be relaid in a new alignment and then re-signalled to passenger standard.

    None of that is cheap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    And if the substation/charging infrastructure can't be located within IE lands then you need a railway order.

    They managed to get the substation into the car park at Drogheda so only needed planning permission.

    Hopefully the stations with charging infrastructure are next to developable lands so a land deal could be considered. Get the LDA to do some TOD would be the ideal and avoid railway orders.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    The question will be how many extra BEMU trains will be needed to (1) fulfil the same service pattern (2) increase the service to 10min frequencies and (3) allow time for charging if you go Battery.

    They could end up in a situation where the capital and operating cost of BEMU is higher than just EMU if lots of OHLE charging infrastructure and energy storage systems are needed. Big study for TYPSA to carry out, presume they'll get Alstom on board to de-risk it for themselves.

    The 2nd fleet order announcement is political anyway, the same fleet was announced for DART to Wicklow a few weeks back (not directly but can't be delivered without it).



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Having read the engineering doc for the Drogheda charging infrastructure from cover to cover, I'm well aware of what is involved!

    Fortunately, given that such infrastructure is all within the existing station, the planning is relatively straight forward and fast and most importantly can be done at the local council level and doesn't need to go to ABP for a railway order.

    It is absolutely trivial compared to building a massive new depot. Unfortunately given the amount of land a big new depot takes, you are more likely to run into local objections and thus more likely to end up in ABP and then in judicial review, etc.

    As an aside, funnily enough, Irish Rail will be "just plugging them in somewhere", at Inchicore. That is how they plan to charge them there during the initial testing phase in Inchicore, which doesn't have special charging infrastructure, they will just plug them in! Obviously that won't be very fast charging, but should be sufficient for the testing, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭DylanQuestion


    They need to do Blackpool ASAP as it's so easy. I imagine it would aid in taking cars off the N20 and Watercourse Road, especially if the Redforge Road apartments go ahead. It needs to be as accessible from as many areas as possible too. A bridge over Redforge Road to the shopping centre, steps down to Redforge Road and steps up to Dublin Hill



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Those are interesting questions, but I feel they aren't the driving deciding factor here. It is all about derisking these projects.

    It isn't BEMU versus EMU. It is BEMU versus having no new trains for years because electrification is stuck in ABP/court challenges.

    I do think they want to electrify and go EMU as quickly as possible, but they are worried about planning and funding and this is a convenient work around.

    BTW The planned frequency in Cork seems to be 30 minutes, not 10mins!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I'll be stunned if there are electric trains of any kind operating services on the Cork suburban lines in 2026. But looking forward to being proven wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    Its 10minute frequency for Cork, 5min between Kent and Glounthaune. Was only yesterday AJ Cronin had it up on slides at the PWI seminar.

    Maybe they'll have an interim frequency to account for battery operations.

    The points I noted are not the driving factor politically, technically they should be. IE engineers are fairly panicked about the idea of running a commuter network on battery. Merseyside rail is one of the BEMU frontrunners for a small enough, low risk service, and its been mixed thus far. I hope it all works itself out and doesn't cost a fortune in the long run.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    That frequency is the end goal, once a new depot is built and full electrification. Obviously that isn't happening by 2026!

    I just mean they can replace the existing fleet, with the existing frequency/schedule which is 30 minutes, with BEMU's before any of the above is done.

    Same is happening in Drogheda, initially replace existing trains with BEMU's, increased frequency will only come with electrification and new depot.

    BTW The DART+ trains use a much larger batteries then the Class 777, 840kWh versus 320kWh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    I don't doubt but that it's complicated, and with Iarnrod Eireann involved it's no doubt at least twice as complicate as it needs to be. I'm just aghast at the caption below ……..

    THREE HUNDRED MILLION EURO ???



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,637 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    It isn't BEMU versus EMU. It is BEMU versus having no new trains for years because electrification is stuck in ABP/court challenges.

    @bk

    Jut wondering, are you saying this in anticipation or are there any electrification projects ABP at present ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,978 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The platform project is costing EUR 23m.

    The quoted EUR 300m cost is the combined cost of the double tracking to Midleton project, the re-signalling of the Cork area network project, and the platform project all lumped together.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,615 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    In the reports it seems that 5 of the 8 new stations will be delivered first with the other 3 depending on more development in their immediate vicinity.

    I'd say the 3 that will be deferred pending more local development would be Monard, Water-rock and Tivoli.



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭A1ACo


    For CART / CATS - regards - BEMUs, Electrification, & 8no. new Cork train stations –

    Does a future - Electrified, frequent, city/ suburban commuter service for Cork City area (CART/ CAT) – deserve its own new Topic thread (maybe not)?

    It seems (Electrified) CART / CAT questions being/ to ask:

    Realistically? - BEMU &/ or, cascaded DMU’s operation first?

    … or use of re-refurbished old LHB DARTs as EMU service first?

    Train & platform lengths?

    If BEMU – charging locations?

    EMU line voltage – 1.5kV DC / 3kV DC, or 25 kV AC?

    A few previous/ current topic threads below relevant/ helpful.

    Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway] - Page 18 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    Re: Consultants to oversee construction of new Cork stations (rte.ie)

    First Dublin DART+ battery-electric multiple-unit (youtube.com)

    Mention above after minute 6:50 as ‘CART ‘ ….

    Cork suburban rail expansion proposal — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    (CMATS etc. Cork Metropolitan Area Transport Strategy)

    Cork Commuter Stations — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    Railway electrification — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    25 kV AC power supplies — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    DART+ (DART Expansion) - Page 336 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin' https://www.irishrail.ie/ga-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-area-commuter-rail/glounthaune-to-midleton-twin-track-project https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2023/8/alstom-chosen-provide-smartlock-interlocking-and-etcs-irish-rails-cork-area-commuter-rail



  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭A1ACo


    Similarly, I thought that I’d start threads – for even more (highly) optimistically (!) Electrified, commuter services – but for the three remaining Rep. of Ireland cities: –

    Limerick (LART), Galway (GART), Waterford (WART)

    ………….

    Athlone (AART) (Athlone works — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin' ) would be the next logical electrification commuter area line choice I think, then Kilkenny, Wexford, Sligo,.. maybe in that order.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think DART is a recognized brand. It is not good marketing to confuse the issue.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: I do not think a host of threads which just take the DART name and transpose it is of use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Nationwide, we averaged 7 level crossing incidents per month in 2023. Presumably, most of these will cause some at least some delay to services on the line. So I think it stands to reason that removing level crossings will reduce the number of delays.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    That's probably it but not something I'd agree with. Proper planning for large scale new developments should require the station to be in place first, then the developments.

    But we could get stuck in a loop here, with the stations waiting for the development and the development waiting for the stations.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Is there any actual plans for Monard new town?

    Tivoli might be decades away yet.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    L1011 already answered the DART+ projects currently slowly making their way through ABP. But to add some context.

    Irish Rail are extremely concerned that electrification won't happen or get seriously delayed, either because the government won't fund it or gets delayed in ABP/courts.

    The issue is that the existing fleets are ageing and desperately need replacing, but obviously the electric infrastructure isn't there yet and might not be for years or even a decade to come. The last thing you want is to be forced into a situation where you have no choice to buy new DMU's, but then end up being stuck with them for the next 40 years when you are legally supposed to be de-carbonising.

    In a recent video about the new DART+ fleet, a senior person from IR mentions that they are concerned about the new Maynooth depot going to judicial review. I'm sure the same worry will exist for Cork.

    There is also an interesting FOI request of a NTA board meeting where some one senior for IR (maybe the CEO, I don't remember), mentions that even if the DART+ infrastructure projects don't get the go ahead, they still have to go ahead with fleet replacement.

    It is these concerns that have pushed IR towards BEMU's.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    I agree to an extent. However development at Water-rock, Tivoli and Monard, sufficient to support a train station, are a long long long way off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,924 ✭✭✭orangerhyme


    Does anyone know exactly the Blackpool station will be?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    From previous plans it was up Dublin Hill, directly behind Woodies and the car park above it, with a pedestrian bridge connecting the train station to that Woodies building in the retail park.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Regarding Waterock, I would like to see that station go ahead. They have already put in the roads/cycle lanes/bus stops plus the water/sewage infrastructure to service Waterock. With planning granted for many of the sites in the area having the infrastructure which includes the train station makes it more attractive. We may see government intervention to build the apartments like we have seen elsewhere so getting that station built in the next two or three years would be prudent. Tivoli and Monard I agree are longer term prospects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You could be wrong on Water-rock yet: there's a lot of ground work done there. I was thinking maybe the Cobh one?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Sorry I just saw your post. Yep, I think Waterrock stands a chance of coming in the first tranche. Regarding the chicken-and-egg "station first" or "development first", what's happened there is that Phase 1 of Waterrock is allowed to start without the train being in place



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Given Water Rock seems to be fairly advanced in relative terms with the afforementioned road and cycle lanes in, would the 3 stations that are development dependent more likely to be Monard, Tivoli and Ballynoe?

    Are the development plans for Ballynoe area in any way publicised?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That was what I had in mind yep, those three. Ballynoe is well discussed between people in Cobh but I've never seen anything formal outside of the local development plan. Waterrock would seem to be well ahead, from my view of it. Online council documentation gives that impression too:

    https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/resident/planning-and-development/urban-expansion-areas

    Local people tell me specific development is approved in Waterrock and things are currently ramping up for construction, not sure of actual timelines.



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