Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

15681011

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭Ireland trains


    Blackpool and Blarney are to go to planning within 12 months



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep it looks like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut: "we need a new station" but hardly a care in the world about using the two stations on either side properly!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Blackpool had planning years ago and nothing happened. Hope it happens but as I said, I wouldn't be holding my breath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Rushbrooke Station is really not suitable for anything inland - there’s a steep ridge, some scrubland and then a row of people’s back-gardens before you get to a public right of way. It was built there for the access to the dockyard, not for any future local residents, and because nobody at the council had foresight to reserve a way inland of it, it's no longer accessible at that side.

    Actually, looking at the map, this could be dealt with by moving the station about 100 metres along, and then connecting to the residential area as shown in green below:




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That's literally what I had in mind. A footpath would do a lot at each of Carrigaloe or Rushbrooke. You wouldn't even need to move the stations! I'm not at all against a new station, but there's very little needed to make the existing ones work a lot better.

    With more investment at Rushbrooke you could allow one of the usual passenger bridges (with lifts) to connect across the ravine you drew in your picture, making the climb/descent even more comfortable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,797 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    International transport company Alstom is set to conduct works on signalling upgrades in a contract that is worth €78.5m, according to Iarnród Éireann.


    What sort of work is this? Is there much civils work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,797 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Thanks.

    78.5m seems a lot?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    According the Bord Pleanála website, the Railway Order Application for the dual tracking project hasn't been approved yet. The decision is apparently "Requires Further Consideration" which, to me any, sounds a bit oxymoronic. Surely a decision of "we haven't decided yet" isn't actually a decision.

    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/315087



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Some of the details there should be a national embarrassment, e.g. the second lowest level of ETCS in Europe. Wow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Wish the DART was rolled out like this, sod the big projects and RO planning mess and just build what can be done without planning and see some progress instantly. This should be a model for transport projects going forward instead of all these big ticket announcements, years of talk and nothing done in the real world. The NTA could have delivered about 70% of BusConnects this way. DART+ will now be delivering its track lowers this way, I.e. this could have been done decades ago as a series of micro projects without huge budgets and glossy brochures.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Should definitely be done for the coastal DART upgrade given the issues involved with residents etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,063 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I don't think that is true for DART+. The depot is a prerequisite for West and South West, I don't see any sense in adding train storage capacity on its own without also increasing capacity on the tracks themselves. The quadtracking east of Park West (i.e. the old KRP2) could have and should have been done on its own after DU was dropped, along with the PPT reopening.

    The Cork are is far more suitable for this phased approach than around Dublin, there are less existing services being affected and there is more scope for quick wins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,593 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Could the ballynoe station be in front of the passage to rushbrooke ferry ?

    Possibly replacing carrigaloo ? Or not .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    That's exactly what I was asking, but no, they intend to keep all three stations. Weird one. A minor roads investment at Carrigaloe would make such a huge difference, it's strange to see what will likely be a multi-million euro station getting put ahead of it.

    I guess it's maybe a case of train infrastructure is sexy, end users are not!



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Posts: 0 Chana Big Ranch


    Ireland uses weird rail signalling systems, based on track circuits with pulsed frequencies on the major lines and DART - CAWS and some system they refer to as Mini-CTC which seems to be again fairly bespoke to Irish Rail. The lack of ETCS doesn't mean that we don't have relatively modern signalling systems, just that we don't have European standard ones.

    We'd no interoperability with any other European railway, and Northern Ireland did its own thing too, so I don't think ETCS was a particularly high priority for Irish Rail.

    It makes more sense to have a standard system, rather than some weird home-brew thing which seems to have been based on something Westinghouse in the US was doing at the time it was introduced.

    ETCS reduces costs, standardises equipment, opens up more suppliers and ensures that safety is maintained at a high level as development of the system just happens automatically without Irish Rail needing to do R&D.

    There's absolutely no reason for a small railway network to reinvent the wheel, or the signalling system.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Luas has shown us the benefits of standardisation. A largely off the shelf system, same track gauge, electrical system, signalling system and tram vehicles used in like 50 other cities throughout Europe. It has made it relatively easy to rollout and buy new upgraded trams as needed. Lots of experts from across Europe who can work on it.

    It is such a pity that our heavy rail network isn't the same and has been hamstrung by a very bespoke system.

    Obviously it doesn't make sense to rip out already well working systems or switch to standard gauge, but I do hope we take the lessons from Luas and apply it to future investments in the heavy rail network where it makes sense.



  • Posts: 0 Chana Big Ranch


    The 1600mm gauge isn't really something that we can change, but all the ancillary services and vehicle designs should be to a broadly EU spec and we should harmonise anywhere we can to save cost and improve quality.

    Irish Rail always seems have gone for some very weird solutions that have been way out of line with the rest of Europe. They're clearly finally starting to wake up to the reality that you can't really run on the basis of exceptionalism.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 Chana Big Ranch


    I'd just add btw, that ETCS isn't a particularly long established system. It has its origins in the 1980s, with most of the implementation of it being from the 1990s onwards, and more so in the 2000s. The primary driving force behind it was to harmonise systems i.e. to open up the EU railways to pan-European traffic without having to have all sorts of weird adaptions but, also to create a single market for equipment and reduce costs. Ireland in EU legislation is defined as having an 'isolated railway' so, ETCS requirements are not imposed here. It's mandatory in continental networks with a timeframe for its implementation.

    At the time it was first envisioned there were at least 14 different major signalling systems in use across the EU networks and that was only the very high speed / medium speed stuff. There were umpteen local system in use. Most networks had developed their own systems, largely based on whatever vendors were doing at the time in their particular country. In Ireland's context, it seems that Westinghouse was the main influencer of modern signalling here.

    What Ireland has in service is also more suited to relatively low speed lines as our network has never been designed for more than 160km/h, probably one of the least ambitious systems in the EU. It has a lot more in common with rural regional rail in most bigger countries than modern intercity type services.

    Signalling installed here on intercity should be designed with future medium-high speed in mind. I highly doubt that Ireland will ever see TGV/AVE-like speeds just due to the population spread and lack of distances involved, but we should be aiming for something like 200-250km/h intercity services as our objective on the key routes.

    If you could do Cork-Dublin in 1h30 to 1h40 and maybe Cork-Belfast in 3h00 it would be a MASSIVE improvement, and that could be achieved on relatively 'traditional' rail infrastructure without ever going anywhere near building TGV lines.

    It took Irish rail far too long to get beyond the notion of a string mid 20th century style intercity carriages hauled by what in reality amounts to a relatively low speed GM freight loco.

    I don't know why they bought 160km/h spec DMUs either. They could easily have been specced for 200km/h service with an ambition to actually achieve that within 20 years. All we've done is bought a lot of expensive equipment that immediately limits progress due to penny pinching on the spec. There's nothing wrong with those DMUs in the sense they're modern, efficient and comfortable, but I'm certain that Hyundai could have delivered 200km/h designs if they'd ever been asked in the tender.

    It also would have made sense to ensure the design would allow for swap out of DMU power packs for EMU equipment, without needing new trains, and with an ambition to electrify lines.

    We aren't future proofing and we're causing serious limitations to what's going to be possible without having to scrap new equipment. It's very much the definition of buy cheap, buy twice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    There is also likely a bit of a moratorium on any forms of road building on Cobh until a government somewhere, sometime decides on the main upgrade on the R624... dualling of the Fota road and a new Belvelly bridge. Which will have to be ploughed through a nature reserve, and will cost as much as some motorways to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The reason Irish Rail went with ETCS is the internal Frankenstein system they built out of duct tape to replace CAWS proved to be a nightmare both on a technical level and human factors, the number of modes and options was insane. It tried to do everything when it was obvious ETCS was the cheaper and proven option. It was the typical we are special/unique attitude

    Going Euro standard ETCS means kit can be sourced from multiple vendors which avoids lock in and ensures there is competition for kit.

    All train borne ETCS kit going in is specified for upgrade to L2 later (the radar kit is installed on 22001), bear in mind the on train kit doesn't differ much for L1 to L2, just the GSMR interface, the cost and challenge is the RBC for L2.

    For Cork commuter L1 is more than adequate

    Of course the EU can be relied on to cough up cash for TEN routes so Cork-Dublin-Belfast ETCS install should get some cash this helps deal with the NTA who have become the blockage to progress with bureaucracy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I thought they kinda had decided and that was the problem: nothing will be funded there from central NTA/TII funding.

    I'd be a bit dubious about dual carriageway. But there's surely scope for immediately improving the bits through Fota and Ballard hill before even considering Belvelly Bridge or whatever we would call the new one. The County Council just seem to want the NTA/TII to fund all their local roads needs in East Cork and exactly like you describe, there's a moratorium of sorts on upgrading roads to Cobh as a result.

    But without even considering the above they could dip into central funding also to progress an active travel route through/around Fota and Cobh. But again zero interest. It's odd.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,249 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Off topic I know, but Dublin-Belfast has been a pain for about 20 years now. CAWS down south and TPWS up north, with only a small number of the fleet equipped to handle each other's system. Even then, I was once told by some friends in Irish Rail that NIR's two 201s still use the old CAWS system so that had been a maintenance headache.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    A single Island wide system in terms of train protection and radio tech is the vision.

    Dundalk Greystones is phase 1 for 2024, new DART+ fleet comes with Alstom ETCS L1 fitted from factory

    Cork Commuter looks to be phase 2, retro fit into the fleet possibly 29000 units?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,970 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Theres no way any local authority could possibly fund the Fota Road/Belvelly upgrade. They're trying to get it reclassified as a national road to get TII funding, but no-one wants to know really.

    Ballard Hill and Fota could be widened/dualled fairly easily, but active travel is needed (legally and morally) thesedays. Immediately you'd need a cycle lane on Belvelly bridge which just can't exist as it won't fit.

    Also, the T junction on the Cobh side is just not acceptable thesedays, and that and Belvelly bridge are completely holding up any development on the island. Always interesting that there isn't any wind turbines on Cobh island- why? You cant get the blades onto the island.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,593 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Easy enough to bring large items by barge , admittedly that'd either get you to the centre of cobh or marino point ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Is there any talk of a branding strategy? CACR doesn't exactly run off the tongue



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You're posing the cycle lane as a problem whereas it's actually a solution: there's massive money available right now for active travel schemes. The NTA are screaming out for projects. The council could probably get all of Ballard Hill and Fota straightened and resurfaced if they tied it all into an active travel scheme. That's what I was getting at in my previous post.

    But instead they're stuck on "someone from NTA/TII needs to take it over". That's specifically what I don't understand: they're playing chicken with the national body who - frankly - have a lot to be doing and don't want another piece of responsibility. They should have pivoted straight away when they got that "no" to trying to improve what they have via the funding pots available.

    All IMO of course.

    Any hope development/use of Marino causes it to get something like TEN-T funding? Maybe that's their angle?


    Anyway we're kind of beside the point of Cork Commuter rail now, so I'll just throw in this little gem to bring us back on track:

    Little Island yesterday had a platform full of people, no trains, no signs advising people of buses, and both ticket machines broken. We can do all the big projects we like, but getting the little things wrong like that absolutely kills ridership.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭Consonata


    They should just embrace the CART to be honest. IR don't want to know about it but it's certainly easy to remember.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,432 ✭✭✭thomil


    I still prefer the Cork Area Transit System (CATS), at least that takes care of the mascot...

    😸😸

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    happy with CART or CATS. CACR is not a runner, don't know why it was even used for the construction project, way too similar to Các



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Good to see this moving forward. It’s a simple enough proposal so it shouldn’t take very long to advance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,330 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Fair Play to Irish Rail for beginning these forward. Let's hope they get the funding to get this going quickly.

    Just reading the article it says the cost of the dual tracking from Glounthaune to Midleton is €90m for about 8km. The original reopening in 2009 cost c.€75m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    Plan is to submit a railway order by the end of 2026, which probably means end of 2027, then 3 years stuck in ABP, so unlikely to see any construction until 2031 and opening?.... 2035?...

    Why can't this country sort out it's planning mess? This is an upgrade of an existing line with the vast majority of land already under state ownership, and likely old disused stations already existing? It's pitiful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭leahyl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Where are you getting those dates from?

    Dual tracking construction is due to start in the next few weeks. All station locations are known so shouldn't exactly take too long to design them(Irish rail standard blunt concrete stations I would expect).

    The biggest hold up I can see is the actual delivery of rolling stock as we can't buy off the shelf.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭loco_scolo


    It's mentioned in the Journal article, just the bit about the railway order by end of next year

    https://www.thejournal.ie/cork-commuter-line-6388296-May2024/



  • Posts: 0 Chana Big Ranch


    What concerns me is you always get these great plans when there's an election on… Then they evaporate when it comes to implementation and they start pandering to a load of NIMBYism and short-term focus budget cuts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Lol, you're talking 2 years design and 3 years in ABP and then a year to tender and at least 3 years to construct. Assuming no excessive planning delays or judicial review by nimby.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭questionmark?


    Thanks. It wasn't mentioned in the Examiner article I saw earlier.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,615 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    End of next year is 2025, not 2026, you've added a year even before your assumption of a years slippage

    ABP are getting faster now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,547 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Appointing pen/mouse pushers announcement. Meh.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,797 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I have a question about the dual-tracking to Midleton.

    90m for 8km, is that correct?

    Is land acquisition involved?

    Removal of level crossings?

    It seems expensive for 8km?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,030 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41367664.html

    It is better then it was, but should be even better.

    Number of staff have increased to 261 from 197 in December 2022, but still 50 short on how many they are allowed. More importantly they have a full board now, at one stage due to Board resignations, they didn't have enough in the board to allow decisions to progress.

    There is a 2,400 backlog, but that is down from 3,600.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    From the website, the project covers:

    • Addition of 2nd track over the full extent of the line;
    • Addition of sidings/turn back facilities at Midleton;
    • Modification/replacement of bridges and level crossings to facilitate the twin tracking
    • Associated signalling upgrades and alterations;
    • All associated civil works (retaining walls, boundary treatments, etc.).

    All works completed as part of the project will be compatible with future electrification of the Cork Area Commuter Rail network.

    (full text here: https://www.irishrail.ie/ga-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-area-commuter-rail/glounthaune-to-midleton-twin-track-project )

    "Associated signalling upgrades and alterations" and "will be compatible with future electrification" suggests that at least some of the ETCS install project recently awarded to Alstom is under this budget. (https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2023/8/alstom-chosen-provide-smartlock-interlocking-and-etcs-irish-rails-cork-area-commuter-rail)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    ??? Has something happened? Cork level crossing project, arguably the most basic of railway projects has recently had it's 3rd birthday sitting on a desk in ABP.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement