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Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

1356711

Comments

  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I'd like to see some examples of these urban DMUs. I have never seen them in France, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Italy etc in cities the size of Cork.

    Just because you've never been to them, doesn't mean they don't exist!!

    As a tourist, people tend to go to the much larger cities which of course tend to be electrified.

    Here is an article on DMU's operations around the world:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit

    Here is a bunch of DMU's operating out of Berlin:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederbarnimer_Eisenbahn
    There's huge focus on renewable energy and reduction of local air pollution in most countries.

    I agree completely and I'm very happy about it. But that doesn't mean it has to be overhead electrical for rail. It can be achieved by BEMU bimodes or Hydrogen powered trains too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭Economics101


    bk wrote: »
    Actually one thought comes to mind. The train tunnel in Cork, is it high enough to put overhead electrical cable in it?

    If not, then it would require massive expense to upgrade the tunnel for overhead electrical and then BEMU becomes a much more attractive option.
    While one can't be certain, there are huge numbers of old tunnels where clearances for the overhead at 25kv has not been a problem. Especially in the case of double-track where the tunnel arch gives some extra height.


  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    bk wrote: »
    Just because you've never been to them, doesn't mean they don't exist!!

    As a tourist, people tend to go to the much larger cities which of course tend to be electrified.

    Here is an article on DMU's operations around the world:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_multiple_unit

    Here is a bunch of DMU's operating out of Berlin:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederbarnimer_Eisenbahn

    I agree completely and I'm very happy about it. But that doesn't mean it has to be overhead electrical for rail. It can be achieved by BEMU bimodes or Hydrogen powered trains too.

    I wasn't there as a tourist and I'm extremely familiar with the countries I mentioned.

    Diesel in France is only used regional lines for what would be sort of equivalent of say Cork-Tralee or something like that.

    I remember when I was in France in my teens there were a lot of Turbotrains (gas turbine regional trains) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbotrain on routes like Bordeaux - Lyon picking up loads of smaller towns.

    You simply would not see it used in urban context at all, even quite small cities have tramways for example. You've cities with smaller populations than Cork that would have systems superior to the Luas.

    Looking at that Wiki list it still places Ireland as an extreme outlier, with just a handful of examples beyond the UK which is also a bit of a weird spot for railways, although they are only really using DMUs on regional/intercity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Surprised not to see any discussion about the EU funding announcement today which will be used to electrify the cork suburban network :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,224 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    it doesn't seem to have got much coverage.

    fantastic news though.

    Post edited by end of the road on

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    So this is €164m on top of the €185m announced a few weeks back? That's huge. It looks like Cork could have an electric double track commuter rail line in five years.


    Edit: Still very low on details. How much of the track will be electrified? €164m is a lot but it's not enough for the 62km between Mallow and Middleton/Cobh.

    Post edited by Peregrine on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Will they make a big glossy project of it with brochures, consultants, public consultation?


    Would prefer just simple direct construction myself



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    I don't think it is 164m on top of the 185m more that the 164m is part of the overall 185 sum.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Then it doesn't add up. €185m wouldn't be enough money for electrification, resignalling, double tracking to Midleton and modifications to Kent station. Not even close. The €185m announcement specifically mentioned that it would "allow for future electrification" and that it wouldn't be part of it.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/cork-rail-peatlands-and-retrofitting-funded-in-1bn-eu-plan-1.4622257?

    This week's announcement mentioned rehabilitation of 33,000 acres of peatland and €164m for electrification of Cork suburban rail.

    https://m.independent.ie/news/explainer-whats-in-store-for-cork-in-the-governments-184m-commuter-rail-plan-40491660.html

    Last month's announcement also mentioned rehabilitation of 33,000 acres of peatland but €185m for double tracking to Midleton, resignalling and Kent station upgrades.


    So it looks like this week's announcement is the same €1bn fund that was announced in June but they each mention two different projects for Cork suburban rail. Which is it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ClosedAccountFuzzy


    I'd assume it's 165m towards it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    I'd imagine that the first article is mentioning the amount the EU are putting towards the project while Eamon Ryan's announcement is the full amount for the the project. A lot of this project is enabling works rather than full electrification isn't it?



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    No, the second announcement only mentioned electrification of the line. It's hard to imagine that means anything less than full electrification of a majority of the line. Whereas the first announcement only mentioned double tracking to Midleton, Kent station upgrades and resignalling to allow for future electrification.


    What's announced here are two different (but complementary) projects but it's looking like they're both using the same money.

    Post edited by Peregrine on


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Funding approved at EU level.

    Given that this is fully funded now things should start moving here soon.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    There are diesel suburban lines in the UK, and you can get to them by train from Dublin....

    just to start local before moving to those exotic overseas locations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    You say this as if IÉ set transport policy and have the power build new infrastructure. This power comes from central government, which saw fit to keep using more expensive diesel rather than handing over the cash as a lump sum for widespread electrification.

    I do agree, we're painfully late to the electrification party and there is currently no serious plan at the moment to decarbonise transport other than letting the electric car industry and global trends do their thing. We've not built any new pt infrastructure since luas cross city.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,224 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    they are diesel because successive governments wouldn't stump up the cash for electrification.

    british rail wanted, and in some cases planned to electrify many of them decades ago, but lack of funding, and then privatization, got in the way.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Is there some official response yet on voltage ? I had heard the DART+ will proceed with current dart voltage and any future intercity electrification will be a case of cross that bridge when we come to it, perhaps dual voltage trains or some of the tracks coming into heuston being a different voltage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Currently the plan is DART + is to be under the existing 1500DC voltage but any further expansion of wires will be using industry standard 25kV AC with dual voltage units initally and with a slow back conversion along the exisiting network as rolling stock becomes replaced.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Work to commence here in 2022 according to Eamon Ryan in front of an Oireachtas Committee today.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No. Work on the ground starting with resignalling and double tracking. Reference to electrification also but not sure how much for that is available under Phase 1.



  • Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bsharp


    It won't be 2022 for double tracking to Midleton unless ground investigation work is being counted.

    The programme is unachievable for works to start, but funding is tied to EU's covid recovery fund, so the programme looks like it was based on meeting EU requirements for stage gate payments/approvals.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    No railway order at the moment and there's lots of bridges that have to be lifted or rebuilt to accommodate electrification and double tracking. Perhaps some signalling but that'll be the extent of it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yeah I can't see a double track to Midleton for at least 5 years. I don't think the bridges can take the double-track and there's a good few of them.

    We're talking very old stonework bridges too, it's not going to be an easy job even if planning approval is already in place. Which it's not.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,596 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Wasnt the midleton line double track before it was modernized ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,373 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    The fact the money is tied to the EUs recovery fund, will probably, excuse the pun, fast track it as much as possible.

    I'd be more interested to see what they're going to do with the station works inside Cork to potentially have trains go from platforms 4&5 straight from Midelton to Mallow as part of the commuter run and what that would mean for InterCity services, as there was talks off having a new intercity platform down the of the existing yard which would link up with Penrose Dock and the proposed light rail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,872 ✭✭✭Economics101


    No. it wasn't double track, but many single-track were built with double-track overbridges, which may well be the case with Midleton. Those Victorians were ambitious and forward-looking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,373 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Maybe but having traveled on the line since it reopened no bridges spring to mind as being double track ready.



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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Some of the railway bridges heading out of Dublin were built to accommodate quad track. The level of foresight in the 1800s/early 1900s is only something we can dream of now. (Midleton line open 12 years before double tracking needed)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53,262 ✭✭✭✭GavRedKing


    The biggest thing IMO is any old bridges, across the network, won't handle the electrification, lots of infrastructure issues fitting over heads, not just the Midelton line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Looking at the Midleton line on Google Maps, I was actually surprised by how few bridges there are, was expecting more. Width only seems an issue on maybe 5 of them, height for overhead cables may be an issue on others too. Looks like there are a few places where one new bridge could be built to replace two existing bridges.

    The scope of works to electrify the Maynooth or Kildare lines as part of DART+ seems much bigger. Had assumed the lines around Dublin would have needed less wotks for such an upgrade but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'd expect works in Cork to move relatively quickly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    No doubt DART+ is a mega project consisting of multiple small jobs that should have been done incrementally over the 20th century. I would think there's a fair bit of work in Cork also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Quick glance at Google maps shows 16 Road Bridges over the Cork to Cobh line. If half them are big enough to allow overhead lines (a generous assumption given the age of most bridge structures) that's still 8 bridge rebuilds or track lowering. Maynooth line DART, a mega project in its self, has about 6 such problematic bridges afaik. So yes Cork's DART (CART???) is definitely a huge job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Let's not try to inflate fairly minor upgrade works in both Dublin and Cork with some sort of mega project, because neither come close on all accounts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I was talking specifically about the Midleton line (as stated in my post) which was the topic of conversation. Like I said, I wouldn’t expect every bridge to be replaced, I'd expect at least one case of one new bridge replacing two existing (eg. The two west of Carrigtwohill Community College). Obviously there are places where the existing single track has to be doubled on the Midleton line, in addition to electrification. This will require widening trackbed, moving existing and laying new track, drainage, earthworks, ducting, bases for cabling supports, etc. When doing all this, they may also lower the track bed to get under an existing bridge, if it is wide enough (eg. east of Carrigtwohill United AFC).

    The Cobh line is probably more complex. It may require a prolonged closure east of Rushbrooke to lower the track under the bridges on approach to Cobh. There are two bridges to Marino Point but I'm sure they'll be replaced by just one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,776 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    In an Irish context this is massive. If you annualised it, there has been close to €0 invested in railways in Ireland since independence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    What you're describing, such as one new bridge replacing two existing, is actually large enough. For local context, there are significant plans in that area. The whole area is zoned for development in the next 7 years. Short of diverting the rail line to a new immediately parallel one, it will not be easy. They're building a Kildare Village style surface mall there and large volumes of houses and industrial estates. What you can see on Google Maps is not an accurate reflection of what's currently in place. You'd end up needing to do a significant enough roads project.

    What could be done is routing one of the two tracks slightly apart from the other, allowing you to keep the existing bridge structures and put in two new adjacent bridge structures immediately north of the existing. But I don't see this being done in two years. I'm not saying it's impossible whatsoever, just that it's a reasonably large volume of work and will take a few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    According to the National Planning Application Database map, there have been no planning applications on the land between the two bridges west of Carrigtwohill Community College, which is the logical place for a new bridge. There is also a filled in underpass west of Carrigtwohill station, this is also shown on LAP map and planning applications in the area have new roads connecting to it, see article here;

    East of Carrigtwohill, roads will be rebuilt linking to the new interchange as part of the N25 Carrigtohill to Midleton project. You'd expect that the road towards the rail line will be at a level to allow a new bridge extend over the rail line.

    I'm not saying its a small project, but it wont be replacing every existing bridge either.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    The County Council intend to make that whole area their next phase of "city outside the city" and are fighting hard to get it done. They've just re-zoned the whole area a few weeks ago. The link to the LAP is here: https://corkcoco.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=636e600103264fd4b1ba0ff1a73966e1

    CT-I-02 has all ground works complete. CT-I-01 has a Part 8 recently completed and approved for an East-West cycleway here: https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/planning/traffic-transport/statutory-processes (Bury's Bridge, Kilcoolishal to Carrigtwohill via Glounthaune. See sheet 11.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% in favour of what you're describing, and I again am absolutely not saying it won't happen, but unfortunately what looks like agri land on the map already has some plans.


    Now, they might simply cast aside all plans too though.

    They did exactly that recently, by approving a surface mall for cars on CT-B-02, CT-B-04, CT-B-09 outside of the previous LAP. Council went all the way to the court to fight the Planning Regulator to get it done. So a Kildare Village style sprawl mall is intended right at the base of the tie-in to your new conceptual bridge. The planning for this will likely be lodged by someone on behalf of Rioja Properties soon. That will significantly affect the road network in the area too, I'd imagine.


    As an aside, your linked video is from CT-R-01 and it's currently being developed. Foundations and kerbing for Link Roads are in place now but no blacktop. It's quite obvious from the LAP what the underpass in the video was intended for (a "sweetner" deal, to encourage a housing developer to break ground).


    Sorry for all the tangents. Just saying that I don't think those two bridges, nor the next one, or the one at Carrigtohill Train Station will happen in two years. They're the old stonework bridges that would need doing. I'd say 5 years would be possible maybe. But I cannot see double tracking to Midleton in 2022. Absolutely no way, no how. They might break ground on it and start planning, maybe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I dont know what you think I am say, I'm only saying that the project will be designed to minimise the number of bridge replacements. It is clear that several bridges are not high and/or wide enough so that will have to be addressed as part of the project. I'm sure they'll take an overall view rather than simply replacing each and every bridge. I certainly didn't mention anything about 2022.

    New development in the area is obviously going to need new roads to serve it which can be designed around bridge locations. The cycle scheme seems to propose a new ped/cyclist bridge over the rail line. I'm sure CCC will coordinate with Irish Rail on building any new bridges, if IR need a new bridge anyway it could be wide enough for peds/cyclists also.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep that's all reasonable, it was Marno above were saying the spend will be in 2022 for on-the-ground work on double tracking and a few of us reckoned that's optimistic, is all.

    I'll be absolutely delighted if the area gets new infrastructure to be honest.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,036 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Would it not make sense to use hybrid trains? Trains with batteries that can run on battery alone while running under the bridges without over head cables and then recharge the batteries when back on overhead power?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Height isn't the only issue, width in places too.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,810 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Can any of the double-tracking and/or re-signalling be done in-house by IE?

    I presume electrification can't be done in-house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,627 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    If you mean to try avoid a tender, no. They already use contractors for various bits of conventional work albeit they do have their own staff, kit etc also; but something this big will be tendered out.

    They do have staff that are able to work on electrification kit, or else they wouldn't have been able to run an electrified setup for the guts of 40 years; but they wouldn't have the in-house resources to do new electrification - at least not while maintaining maintenance elsewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 655 ✭✭✭Pablo Escobar


    The images that I've seen show an additional 'Platform 6' on the city side of the terminal. It doesn't totally solve the problem, but it definitely alleviates it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yeah I saw the same, a platform at the existing passing loop, with train on one side and tram on the other.

    As I understand it the problem was that the Dublin trains would sit on the platform inside the main building, blocking the place up and not allowing through trains. This would alleviate that a bit. Would be great to see some development of Kent to be honest.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    The lowest effort change to the station that does nothing for any future expansion of rail for the region - typical Irish approach to infrastructure.



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