Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175994#Comment_121175994

A good question.

I thought the renter had to be in receipt of housing support in some way to qualify for this council buy back scheme.

Which is essentially unfair, but then if you remove the limits on earnings/benefits for the renter to qualify, where does the scheme end?

It would mean the govt should be purchasing any rented home if the tenant has a NtQ.

Regardless of how much the tenant earns or has in wealth.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175391#Comment_121175391

Horsecrap about the planning our state effectively controls this and local authorities can be told to do what they are told. Anyone locally objecting should have a CPO put on their property to put some manners on them. It is a zero sum game if a landlord is not making a profit on rent they are hardly going to hold on to an asset where prices are actually starting to drop? Doesn't seem like the brightest idea to me but who knows I reckon a lot will be cashing in so if a landlord sells their property then someone buys it so zero sum as one person loses a place to live and someone gains a place to live. Put in vacant property tax and it will force the landlord to rent. So no incentivization for them put a tax on their place if its vacant so they either rent or buy we should not be giving tax payers money to any individual who is rich enough to own 2 or more properties..

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176229#Comment_121176229

Many landlords do sell, of course.

But when they sell, the new owner very rarely moves off a housing list and they quite often do not leave an empty property behind them.

Think of a couple moving from 2 houseshares to buy a home. The 2 homes they left are still occupied by the other renters. Same with first time buyers moving out of parents home. Or a couple that seperates etc.

The people who have money to buy a home, rarely leave an empty home behind.

Essentially, the increased number of homes is housing the same amount of people, but the ratio between people and homes has reduced.

Plenty of landlords do leave the property empty, because natural rises in value offset any vacany tax imposed.

They can also just move a family member into the home (offically - even if they dont actually live there)

Lots of ways landlords can get around not renting out the property and still accrue value long term from their asset.

The bottom line is we shouldn't be forcing potential landlords into a situation where they HAVE to rent out a property. We should create an environment where they WANT to rent out their property.

That's one of the first key steps to actually solving the housing crisis, that and building far more homes at scale.

But as far as landlords are concerned, more Carrot & less stick is part of the solution.

And social housing tenants should house share, same as private tenants do. That would have a huge impact on reducing homelessness.

What's good for the goose and all that...

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176354#Comment_121176354

hang on one person moves out and another moves in regardless of being on any list its a zero sum game. Someone had 2 properties they now have 1 and someone else had no property or a partial space in a property and now they have one. Giving landlords a tax break is absolutely bananas in the current situation. As I say if they have a vacant property tax at 10% they have to use it or lose it. Time is up on people hoarding critical infrastructure. Stick needs to be sharpened the carrots have been well and truly eaten

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176513#Comment_121176513

If a couple move out of their parents home to buy a house, nobody moves into their parents home when they leave.

The same 6 people are now occupying 3 homes instead of 2.

Same for a separating couple. 1 stays in the home but they dont move someone else in.

Same 2 people are now occupying 2 homes instead of 1.

In a house share, another person gets a place to share when someone moves out to buy, which is a good thing. But as the social list doesnt put people in house shares, that sequence doesnt reduce the homeless/housing waiting list.

There should be a change of policy there so that people on the housing list get offered places in house shares and if they dont accept, they get moved to the back of the queue.

Lots of working folks dont have the luxury of single occupancy rentals, so why should non-working folks?

10% vacancy tax is easily avoidable. Just move a family member in officially, even if they dont actually live there.

There are barely any carrots for landlords at the moment which is the exact reason why they are leaving the market.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175197#Comment_121175197

We went 30k over in our final bid. We'd been looking for about 4 years. The time and money wasted over those 4 years is probably over 30k.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121175571#Comment_121175571

I am not sure I go 50k over either. However from years going to auctions I have seen tactics like this often and they do work. I have often see lads do a 2-5k jump where the bids were in. 500's to shake off another bidder( on items worth les than 100k.

50k is a serious jump, however if you have been put bid 8-10 times and two years later still paying 2k/ month in rent and want to get on with life then maybe this is your final throw of the dice, check.yhr market value and put that bid in with 5-10 K on top.

5;-10k extra to where you think the bidding might stop is only a few.months rent for many

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176142#Comment_121176142

Both cases were not in receipt of any state housing assistance

In both cases rent significantly below current market rent as LL's caught in the rent freeze

Income limits for a couple circa 60k net p/a

Scheme is open to tennants not in receipt of state assistance and to persons not on social housing list

Having and declaring savings inadvisable for qualification

https://www.limerick.ie/council/services/housing/notice-to-quit/information-for-tenants-in-limerick-who-receive-a-notice-to

timmyntc

CIF now calling on govt to introduce a 1% levy on all second hand home sales, to justify gouging on new build prices fund infrastructure.

More inflationary nonsense, and poorly justified too. New builds need a contribution to infrastructure because new houses mean an increasing population,which in turn requires more infra and amenities to support it. A 2nd hand home sale does not mean more population, and does not require any additonal infrastructure, so should not have any levies.

Honey50000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121178928#Comment_121178928

30k over crazy was it priced very low to start with or what?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176571#Comment_121176571

They are leaving due to the really high prices at the moment and with interest rates going higher the price increases have stopped and are turning so they are checking out at what most would say is the highest price point. Why didn't they sell 5 - 6 years ago tax on property has not increased in that time if anything it is now more attractive to be a landlord you can now offset mortgage interest yet landlords fleeing the market has only ramped up in the last 2/3 years.

Just some issues with your narrative, firstly your first point the 2 sets of parents are still living in their home and are you really saying its a sustainable model where couples in their late 20s and 30s trying to make it work while staying in their parents for ever more?

The fact is if a landlord sells a property someone will use it and rent it out or someone else will buy it and live in it we can make up any scenario you want with regards to the making up of what happens when we buy/sell or rent but the question I want answered is why would it be a good idea to give a tax break for someone who is in the fortunately position to own 2 properties. It does not make sense and I certainly don't want my taxes going towards it. If the current situation is not working for the landlord then sell its that simple.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180855#Comment_121180855

The CIF can go and do one buying a house is already too expensive when you take all the costs involved. Why don't they look at all of their members take home pay for the last year and tax it at another 10% to fund infrastructure phucking pricks. Call it a gougy mc gougerson tax

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180639#Comment_121180639

Thanks.

If the state does buy the property, do the state then keep the rent payments as they are or are they reassesed?

I assume the sitting tenant has first refudlsal on the property and the state cant bump them out and bring in someone from their social housing list.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181242#Comment_121181242

I think you are right that the prices are near the top of the cycle, but the controls over rental property from the govt are the driving force in landlords getting out of the game.

The eviction ban was the final straw for many.

Rent returns have never been better. If you own a 1 bed apartment in a basic part of Dublin, you can still easily get 1800 or 1900 a month for it.

Plenty of 2 bed apartments in decent areas ( not top end areas) going for 2.5k a month.

The rental income is so high that landlords shoud be falling over themselves to get into the game and yet the exacty opposite is happening!

Why is that happening?

Because the govt shafts landlords at every turn and it is now paying the penalty for that approach.

One example: It can take years to get a non paying tenant out of your home. It should take 6 months tops.

I didnt say it was a sustainable model for couples in their 30s to stay living with parents. I said that when the couple buy a home, they generally dont leave a vacant property behind them.

To answer your question, the tax break for landlords is simply to encourage them to stay in the market.

If there are 50000 homes to rent in Dublin and the demand is 70000 potential renters, the last thing we want to do is drive 50% of those landlords out of the market.

If we do, the 25000 homes no longer available to rent will push up prices for those 70000 folks looking to rent.

Of the 25000 homes taken out of the rental market, lets say 5000 remain unoccupied.

Landlord renovates etc or just leaves the property idle until the market becomes more favourable for landlords again.

Another 5000 are bought by investment funds or big business to house visiting global staff. They do not return to the public rental market.

10000 are sold to private buyers who do live in the home, but many of them moved into ireland from abroad to take up a job or moved out of their parents/shared accom - in other words, they have not left a property in ireland empty.

5000 of the homes are re-let and back on the rental market.

So we have gone from 50k homes to rent, against a demand of 70k renters, to availability of 30k homes to rent, against demand of 70k renters.

Thats why we need to incentivise landlords to stay in the market.

To protect the renters.

AdamD

30k over, 50k over is completely irrelevant without context. Some EAs put the properties up at way below market price, often the bidders will have been looking for a long time and will be well aware how high the bidding is likely to to regardless of the asking price. They're a borderline irrelevance.

grumpyperson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121180890#Comment_121180890

Bidding started low. In the end we looked at what we could afford and went all in. We had to borrow from family to get it over the line but after 4 years it's done.

Thargor

I paid 270k on a house listed for 190k on Daft originally in Limerick, it went up to 290 before I dropped out, EA came back a few months later saying it had fallen through and it was mine for 270 if I wanted it. Ill never know if it was him or the owners yanking my chain or if any of the high bids were real but its worth it for the relief of being done with the whole horrible business at last.

gaming_needs90

Looks like it's all taking off again. How disheartening.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1002/1408387-signs-of-property-rebound-with-asking-prices-up-3/

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183761#Comment_121183761

Giving more money to FTBs pushes prices up, who could have predicted this?!

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121176229#Comment_121176229

It is absolutely not zero sum as rental properties tend to house more people than owner occupied.

A 3 bed house will likely house 3 tenants, but probably only 2 owner occupiers. A 2 bed apartment will likely house 2 tenants, but probably only 1 owner.

This is exactly why the reduction in rental supply has been so terrible for people in the rental market.

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181342#Comment_121181342

The scheme is to avoid the danger of tenants falling into the risk of homelessness. New rentals in Limerick are like hens teeth, if your evicted you are in a very precarious position. Children involved also

The council purchases to ensure the continuation of the rental agreement with existing tenants

Great deal for the tenants but the bigger picture means that housing budget is spent on buying existing property rather than delivering new supply.

Dare I say it but yet another scheme that inflates property/rent prices leading to the rte article above

You could call it pulling up the ladder spreading to the rental market. The sense of hopelessness amongst new entrants must be unreal

Note: This is a tenant initiated program, and a bit of a get out of jail free card for a landlord caught by the rent freeze

Villa05

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183812#Comment_121183812

What if the house is housing noboby except the odd tourist.

Personally tax should be balanced so that investment funds are not given a competitive advantage over local LL's. Higher tax for air bnb plus a ban on areas of housing undersupply. Planning was issued for resedentiall not commercial

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181426#Comment_121181426

Once again the question has to be asked why now why have the ramping up of landlords selling happened now its really obvious its to do with the high prices , why not 5 years ago. I agree with regards to some of the controls I think it is ridiculous that you cant evict a person straight away if they have stopped paying rent and I also think it is disgraceful that some tenants can wreck the apartment and then leave with out any recourse as the option to sue them is too expensive for the landlord. That would be 2 ways I would help a landlord out by changing both of these options but giving them tax payers money not a chance in hell I mean what is the difference between this and someone who invested in the stock market and losing a load of cash asking the tax payer to pay them back. The landlord made the choice to buy the 2nd property if it isn't working sell they should make a tidy profit and make your life easier using that lever and they can feel good in the knowledge that yep their tenant may lose out but someone else will gain.

The other part of this is if it was just an acute lack of rental properties in Ireland that was the issue maybe there would be some merit to the landlord tax but there is a huge deficit in all properties - rental, social, shared and private. So instead of giving the landlord free cash from the tax payer and which in turn IMO will not help the situation as the high prices are the driver for small landlords selling so they will be selling any way this money needs to be used to build and before I get any arguments about Sinn Fein or we just cant build enough houses, we have not got the resources etc. We were building 90k+ houses a year back in 2000 to 2007 so it can be done. We are spending 4 billion a year on housing supports that could be used to build, there is a projected 50Billion tax bonanza via corpo tax coming in the next 5 years so that should be more than enough to build what we need. We need more and more and the only way to do this is building fecking around with rent controls, taxes, grants or giving FTB more cash is not going to do anything for the issue. Until there is some cop on to this fact in government there is really no way forward for a lot of people owning/renting in this county.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183812#Comment_121183812

First off people who buy in the round are a couple and couples procreate so by your "sticking your finger to see what way the wind is blowing" logic it is a zero sum game. Landlords getting tax from the tax payer is not going to help the situation. Prices are ripe for them to sell and also it takes the risk of a non paying tenant out of the equation which to me is the 2nd biggest factor why landlords are selling up after the sky high price they can achieve when they sell

grumpyperson

I'm sure there's still lots of accidental landlords who traded up but kept their old apartment etc. They're probably nearly all gone although I still know a few...

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121184168#Comment_121184168

People having kids has nothing to do with it. Your understanding of this issue is just incorrect. The facts are that removing a property from the rental market both reduces supply and increases demand simultaneously, and I think you can work out what that does to rental prices.

Landlords selling up will suit some people, specifically those who are in a position to buy, but it is very bad for many more people.

Will tax incentives get them to stay? I don't know if that will work, I don't think it's a great idea, but what is clear is that the situation is fairly desperate now, and it absolutely is NOT a zero sum game like you claim.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121184183#Comment_121184183

Of course couples buying and having kids has something to do with it as it means that in the house your talking about there could be 3/4/5 people living there but you pick a situation to suit your own narrative.. I understand the issue fine. I understand that the issue is housing not just rental and until people on here advocating for landlords to get their hands on tax payers money to give them more cash than the already record high rents they don't see what the underlining condition is. We need more housing end of story and all of the grants, schemes, tax credits etc that the current government are floating are doing 2 things. No:1 its not sorting out the supply side and No. 2 its making property more expensive.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121184152#Comment_121184152

You have not a clue you are letting your anger cloud you thinking. From 2000-2008 we averaged about 60k houses a year. The max was 88k in 2005 or 2006 I am not sure which, however house prices increased by 153/ year from 1996-2006 which drive the building. We imported eastern European labour and skill as they were very low wage economies. As well a lot of skilled Irish building labour returned from the US and the UK. That tap is no longer there as there economies have developed and have good employment.

Every second young Jad leaving school was doing a trade or skill for the construction sector from 2000 onwards. It took 5 years from 1995- 2000 to ramp up building mainly by tax incentives and the FF government at the time prevented a load of new regulations being implements that suited builders. A lot of the quality left a lot to be desired and corruption was manifested every where within the system.

If we manage to ramp up by 30-50% over the next 2-3 years it will be a miracle, there is vast untapped labour resource but it will mean house price continuing to increase by 10-15% a year.

You are incorrect on rentals as well it has been explained to you but you choose not to understand. The government cannot afford any more leakage from the residential rental sector and actually probably need more investment in that area.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121184393#Comment_121184393

In 2005/2006 it was just under 90k so I was right we have done it before so it can be done again.. People like you have not got a clue its excuse after excuse. We are squandering 4 Billion a year on schemes, tax breaks, incentives and will have 50Billion in projected corpo taxes are you telling me that is not enough cash to draw workers here to build here REALLY. Ireland need to compete like the Arab states and Oz. Give contracts for 5 years let them live rent free and tax free and then after the 5 years let them head home or stay but if they stay they have to start paying tax and paying for their own accommodation. There needs to be a serious ramping up of building I cant believe that people on here think that giving landlords more cash is part of a valid solution that is a supply side issue and not just rentals its all supply. With regards to the rental side its horse crap and an argument built from landlords who want to remain with 2+ properties. Its simple math if they sell one property someone else can buy one property it does not reduce the amount of housing needed in the system it also does not add to the system. The only way that we can add to the system is and will we all say it together until its phucking hammered home is by building more and more and more housing. The so called attempts to help people buy or rent here has done nothing but push prices up. We have tried this now and its proven to be a failure why not use the money and try something different at the moment our govenment are stuck in a hole and think that digging downwards is a solution to get out. Its phucking frightening the lack of basic intelligence displayed by this govenment.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121183829#Comment_121183829

Yes, agreed.

It certianly wont help new renters or those on waiting lists, since it is detracting from delivering new supply and it does have the affect of keeping prices inflated.