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Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,111 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Will they burn the house while Im in bed?

    thats if your lucky to have a house, its a mess, and its clearly been failing for a very long time, yet we continue with it, this is nuts!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    yes, we do indeed need the fire sectors, but we ve turned them into a rent seeking mess, thats now actually endangering us all

    it's not really endangering us all though, it's affecting those who want everything there own way and won't make sacrifices


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,111 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    it's not really endangering us all though, it's affecting those who want everything there own way and won't make sacrifices

    wanna bet! many companies and investors surely must be looking at our current property situation and be thinking, ta hell with that, too messy, we ll go else where! if we dont resolve this soon, this will more than likely to continue to increase, and more of our taxes will be used to try resolve it! watch this space!

    some folks have astonishing ignorance towards this serious problem, just because some of us have an element of security in regards housing, doesnt give us the right to go on the internets and point the finger, we truly are all in this one together!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    So, if there’s no shortage of land in Dublin, outside of land costs, what’s the primary reason that the proposed affordable housing bill believes that a new build a-rated three bed semi should sell for c. €225k in Co. Tipperary and the exact same size and quality house should sell for c. €450k in Co. Dublin?

    Jobs and demand to live close to where you work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,633 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    it's not really endangering us all though, it's affecting those who want everything there own way and won't make sacrifices

    Ah yes, those greedy people on the average wage who wont just move to Longford and commute for 2hrs each way


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,922 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Ah yes, those greedy people on the average wage who wont just move to Longford and commute for 2hrs each way

    why not just get a job in longford, if you are on the average wage there isnt much sense in being in dublin if you cant afford to buy there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,633 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Cyrus wrote: »
    why not just get a job in longford, if you are on the average wage there isnt much sense in being in dublin if you cant afford to buy there.

    Ah yes - so everyone earning average wage or below should just leave Dublin. That would go really well for the city. Enjoy seeing nurses, teachers, gardai, all retail & hospitality workers and more leave for good.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,922 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Ah yes - so everyone earning average wage or below should just leave Dublin. That would go really well for the city. Enjoy seeing nurses, teachers, gardai, all retail & hospitality workers and more leave for good.

    im not saying it would be good for Dublin and in my opinion we should make provision within the social housing legislation to make specific allowances for key workers such as gardai, firefighters, nurses, teachers etc in cities.

    im just saying what i would do if i was in that scenario, i.e. what would be good for me.

    for example a married couple two teachers, life would be a lot better in wexford than in dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    Jobs and demand to live close to where you work.

    that's the argument for setting the price higher in a free market and when a private seller is trying to maximise their profit.

    When a government entity is trying to sell houses on a not-for-profit basis, and with the stated intention of reducing prices in an area where prices are overheating, the price of the house should be closer to the cost to build it, not the market value of the house.

    If I could buy an affordable, 3 bed, A rated home in a new estate for 350k, what motivation would there be for me to pay 500k for the same house in a private estate around the corner, or a second hand house down the road?

    Pricing the affordable houses under the market value is the only way we'll take the heat out of the market.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    timmyntc wrote: »
    Ah yes - so everyone earning average wage or below should just leave Dublin. That would go really well for the city. Enjoy seeing nurses, teachers, gardai, all retail & hospitality workers and more leave for good.

    But there are nurses, teachers, garda all in longford, All getting paid the same as someone in Dublin but with a lower cost of living. Maybe they are the smart ones?

    What exactly do you want?

    There are literally thousands of highly skilled and highly paid individuals in Ireland who can afford to paid large sums of monies for houses.

    You have this sense of entitlement -


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    But there are nurses, teachers, garda all in longford, All getting paid the same as someone in Dublin but with a lower cost of living. Maybe they are the smart ones?

    What exactly do you want?

    There are literally thousands of highly skilled and highly paid individuals in Ireland who can afford to paid large sums of monies for houses.

    You have this sense of entitlement -

    Every city needs a mix. In New York and other major cities, there are rent controlled apartments for middle/low income workers.

    Every city needs bin men and nurses and cleaners and retail workers.

    We could go the way of Paris, and just stuff them all out in high rises on the outskirts. I mean, look how well that has worked for them.

    At least London has made an attempt at having small pockets of social housing in every suburb. There are blocks of flats in Chelsea and Mayfair.

    I'm all for a free market, but when there is massive obvious problems with a million people in a city, and only 30k houses to buy coming on line each year, and no control on rents, which are spiralling, it's stupid for us to say that government have absolutely no role in this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,111 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    im not saying it would be good for Dublin and in my opinion we should make provision within the social housing legislation to make specific allowances for key workers such as gardai, firefighters, nurses, teachers etc in cities.

    im just saying what i would do if i was in that scenario, i.e. what would be good for me.

    for example a married couple two teachers, life would be a lot better in wexford than in dublin.

    funny you mention this, i believe such a scenario appeared on mcwilliams podcast, not too long ago, the only houses available were shambolic kips, for 500k or so! both wanting to live in dublin, as thats where they both work, and maybe from also, but could be wrong there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,922 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    funny you mention this, i believe such a scenario appeared on mcwilliams podcast, not too long ago, the only houses available were shambolic kips, for 500k or so! both wanting to live in dublin, as thats where they both work, and maybe from also, but could be wrong there

    and do you agree they would have a much more comfortable life in wexford?

    Dublin is only an hour / hour 15 away depending on where you are as well. so if you have family its an easy trip.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 412 ✭✭Reversal


    mcsean2163 wrote: »
    This weeks all Ireland myhome figures.

    date total
    17/05/2021 12002
    19/05/2021 11990
    21/05/2021 11972


    Not going in the right direction...

    24/05/2021 12664

    Decent jump.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭M_Murphy57


    Cyrus wrote: »
    and do you agree they would have a much more comfortable life in wexford?

    Dublin is only an hour / hour 15 away depending on where you are as well. so if you have family its an easy trip.

    Lol, 2007 called, it wants its blurb back !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,111 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cyrus wrote: »
    and do you agree they would have a much more comfortable life in wexford?

    Dublin is only an hour / hour 15 away depending on where you are as well. so if you have family its an easy trip.

    it is up to them to decide that, not us, maybe they want and need to be close to work, family, friends, community etc etc. how do you define 'easy', as theres nothing easy about a potentially +2.5hr working day?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,357 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Balluba wrote: »
    It amazes me how many posters seem to trust auctioneers even though there is no transparency or accountability in the bidding process

    I do not trust them just line I distrust solicitors and accountants as well. However neither am I a conspiracy theorists. In a way it not in auctioneers interest to set the bar too high. It can make it harder to sell houses. However it is.supply that is driving prices at present.

    It interesting now we are back to a causing posters that they are auctioneer's or have a vested interest in the construction/ property section. I have three children that will be looking for houses over the next few years. I am a realist User supply being a issue for the next 5 years. If we get a mini correction in the middle it will be as much as that happens.

    I also recognise that 2013 was not an natural floor to houses prices. Prices over corrected to below construction costs. At present construction costs have increased and regulations have increased housing construction costs as has demand and labour supply. Maybe if Commercial construction decreases sharply it will increase labour supply. That and WFH may reduce demand in Dublin but it may increase demand on the rest of the country which will strip Dublin if construction workers. There is no easy answer until supply is solved

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    JDD wrote: »
    that's the argument for setting the price higher in a free market and when a private seller is trying to maximise their profit.

    When a government entity is trying to sell houses on a not-for-profit basis, and with the stated intention of reducing prices in an area where prices are overheating, the price of the house should be closer to the cost to build it, not the market value of the house.

    If I could buy an affordable, 3 bed, A rated home in a new estate for 350k, what motivation would there be for me to pay 500k for the same house in a private estate around the corner, or a second hand house down the road?

    Pricing the affordable houses under the market value is the only way we'll take the heat out of the market.

    The government don't build homes. That is where this argument stops. All the builders are private. The land could be provided from public lands. But there is an opportunity cost to that also.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    The government don't build homes. That is where this argument stops. All the builders are private. The land could be provided from public lands. But there is an opportunity cost to that also.

    But that shouldn't really be an issue.

    Say Park Developments decide to build an estate of 100 affordable homes for the government. The cost to them is 300k for building the home, and they add 100k profit because that's how much they would get if they sold the house privately.

    That means the government have to buy it off them for 400k a house, but decide to sell the houses at a loss, selling them for 350k each.

    Therefore it costs the government 50k for each affordable house that they contract out to Park.

    The government could choose to build these houses themselves. But then they'd have to set up a quango to oversee the social housing building programme, pay the construction workers the same as they would get in a private firm, but make pension payments and give them the same union protections they give every other public sector worker. There would be less pressure to build on time, or be fired, as there would be in private construction firms, so projects will run over, and cost more.

    In the end the government may decide that it is more economical to contract out the building than undertake it in house. There's nothing wrong with that.

    What is wrong is trying to sell the houses for market value, so that the government have to spend nothing. And it's probably less about the cost, and more about maintaining house prices in the area that they are building in, lest the local people who bought privately blame them for their house reducing in price. Home owners tend to be people who vote.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,922 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    M_Murphy57 wrote: »
    Lol, 2007 called, it wants its blurb back !

    i never suggested they commute to work.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,922 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    it is up to them to decide that, not us, maybe they want and need to be close to work, family, friends, community etc etc. how do you define 'easy', as theres nothing easy about a potentially +2.5hr working day?

    i didnt suggest that they commute.

    id get a job in wexford if it was me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    JDD wrote: »
    Every city needs a mix. In New York and other major cities, there are rent controlled apartments for middle/low income workers.

    Every city needs bin men and nurses and cleaners and retail workers.

    We could go the way of Paris, and just stuff them all out in high rises on the outskirts. I mean, look how well that has worked for them.

    At least London has made an attempt at having small pockets of social housing in every suburb. There are blocks of flats in Chelsea and Mayfair.

    I'm all for a free market, but when there is massive obvious problems with a million people in a city, and only 30k houses to buy coming on line each year, and no control on rents, which are spiralling, it's stupid for us to say that government have absolutely no role in this.

    Yes you are right - rent controlled apartments would be good idea. But we are talking about people wanting to buy their own house in the city. Not apartments and not renting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    Yes you are right - rent controlled apartments would be good idea. But we are talking about people wanting to buy their own house in the city. Not apartments and not renting.


    Rent controls being brought in is a big part of why we are where we are now.
    Never in history has the government of Ireland not made the property situation far worse by interfering with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    JDD wrote: »
    But that shouldn't really be an issue.

    Say Park Developments decide to build an estate of 100 affordable homes for the government. The cost to them is 300k for building the home, and they add 100k profit because that's how much they would get if they sold the house privately.

    That means the government have to buy it off them for 400k a house, but decide to sell the houses at a loss, selling them for 350k each.

    Therefore it costs the government 50k for each affordable house that they contract out to Park.

    The government could choose to build these houses themselves. But then they'd have to set up a quango to oversee the social housing building programme, pay the construction workers the same as they would get in a private firm, but make pension payments and give them the same union protections they give every other public sector worker. There would be less pressure to build on time, or be fired, as there would be in private construction firms, so projects will run over, and cost more.

    In the end the government may decide that it is more economical to contract out the building than undertake it in house. There's nothing wrong with that.

    What is wrong is trying to sell the houses for market value, so that the government have to spend nothing. And it's probably less about the cost, and more about maintaining house prices in the area that they are building in, lest the local people who bought privately blame them for their house reducing in price. Home owners tend to be people who vote.

    The issue that arises then is why sell those houses, why not given them homeless, or HAP or a 101 other types of individual that needs a house.

    How do you maintain the house price at 350k?
    Is 350k affordable?

    If a couple is ok 35k each, that's 70k, max mortgage they are likely to get is 3.5 = 245k, so they are short 105k.

    Are the houses going to be in the city centre where people want to buy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,029 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Rent controls being brought in is a big part of why we are where we are now.
    Never in history has the government of Ireland not made the property situation far worse by interfering with it.

    So one poster wants rent controls, another doesn't

    One want the government to build houses at a loss but not idea where

    Another poster wants to live on south side to be close to friends even though he can't afford it.

    Basically everyone wants there own thing and everyone is pulling in different directions and instead of maybe coming together with a solution they just blame the government.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,633 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    So one poster wants rent controls, another doesn't

    One want the government to build houses at a loss but not idea where

    Another poster wants to live on south side to be close to friends even though he can't afford it.

    Basically everyone wants there own thing and everyone is pulling in different directions and instead of maybe coming together with a solution they just blame the government.

    People on boards dont have a unified idea to solve housing crisis - ergo its not the govts fault? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    So one poster wants rent controls, another doesn't

    One want the government to build houses at a loss but not idea where

    Another poster wants to live on south side to be close to friends even though he can't afford it.

    Basically everyone wants there own thing and everyone is pulling in different directions and instead of maybe coming together with a solution they just blame the government.


    No matter what solutions anyone posts here (not forgetting its a bunch of random people on the internet posting when they should be at work :) ) -



    Its kinda the governments job to provide the solutions.
    A job they are 100% useless at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭Marius34


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    Rent controls being brought in is a big part of why we are where we are now.
    Never in history has the government of Ireland not made the property situation far worse by interfering with it.

    I'll say 3.5 income rule prevents from Bubble. Should the limits be removed? Should AirBnb be allowed to operate freely, without regulations? Should Funds allowed todo business freely in property market?
    Like many regulation it has it's pros and cons.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,109 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Cyrus wrote: »
    i didnt suggest that they commute.

    id get a job in wexford if it was me.

    The thought of living within your means, or putting up with any inconvenience, seems to be a mostly foreign concept.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,633 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Marius34 wrote: »
    I'll say 3.5 income rule prevents from Bubble. Should the limits be removed? Should AirBnb be allowed to operate freely, without regulations? Should Funds allowed todo business freely in property market?
    Like many regulation it has it's pros and cons.

    Agreed - people think that because things are bad, that the govt restrictions are the reason - the reality is things could be much worse without them. House prices would skyrocket if the 3.5 income rule was abolished. Rents would likely have hit a ceiling where people couldnt afford it anymore - and due to increasing rents we would have higher property prices again due to buy-to-lets becoming more attractive to investors.

    I dont think rules should be permanent, but they absolutely are protecting us from something much worse right now


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