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Ballymurphy massacre

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    downcow wrote: »
    I appreciate your honest engagement. I think part of the problem is that Republicanism wants to demonise 'the British'. I am British, and the British state has been a very positive contribution to my community (and by this I include the entire Northern Ireland community) and my quality of life.
    Of course, like any state, individuals have got things wrong and acted in times in a disgraceful manner; that does not make the state bad.
    I would be living with you in your country had your state not discriminated against my father. I am not obsessed with looking for apologies and raking over the past. There is not a country or community in the world that I am aware of who do not have big skeletons in their cupboards and not done terrible things to people. Where does this all stop. These killings we are referring to are 50 years ago.
    If Sinn Fein get elected to power in your country, how will you feel about people who have been responsible for endless horrific damage to people's lives, sitting at your Parliament, some of them probably with letters assuring them that they will not be prosecuted? It is difficult to watch old men who have had nothing to do with politics etc for 50 years being hounded while we have people at the very top of power in both our countries who have committed horrendous crimes that they are proud of to this day

    People were murdered in a massacre and had their reputations tarnished to cover up the crime.
    The victims families are people like yourself, from your jurisdiction. What about their quality of life for the last 50 years? They aren't politicians of any stripe, not that that should matter.
    Should such people forget the whole thing? It's up to them but I would imagine any credible society would not let such a thing go unaddressed.
    Murderers should be hounded until held accountable however inconvenient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭overshoot


    downcow wrote: »
    Who do you include as terrorists in the ni conflict and which players do you say were not terrorists?
    downcow wrote: »
    I think part of the problem is that Republicanism wants to demonise 'the British'.

    Of course, like any state, individuals have got things wrong and acted in times in a disgraceful manner; that does not make the state bad.

    We do have prescribed lists of terrorist organisations, I'm happy to abide by that.

    You say you're we are the one looking to demonise the British state but you are the one happy to hold it to the same account as the terrorist organisations, what sort of bar is that? For SF's questionable past, I've never voted for them either.

    The aim here isn't to demonise Britain, it's to get the truth we know it withholds. If it protects the individuals, changing evidence (ie blackening victims names such as here at ballymurphy), delays evidence, crimes in itself, it makes itself bad and makes it impossible to define how far the rot actually went by withholding the truth. The European commission on Human rights has had to not just open but reopen, cases against it due to lack of action on cases.

    Anyway im going to just duck out here, your view is we demonise the UK. My view is simply, the state should carry itself above the level of terrorists. If there is to be any truth and reconciliation forums, Westminster and the dail should be leading the way by example and repenting for any of their past misgivings, not waiting on the members of the various IRAs, UVF, UDA etc whatever they may be doing today, that isn't the level to set your bar.
    Ps you might note the emphasis on truth, not prosecution...


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Shebean wrote: »
    People were murdered in a massacre and had their reputations tarnished to cover up the crime.
    The victims families are people like yourself, from your jurisdiction. What about their quality of life for the last 50 years? They aren't politicians of any stripe, not that that should matter.
    Should such people forget the whole thing? It's up to them but I would imagine any credible society would not let such a thing go unaddressed.
    Murderers should be hounded until held accountable however inconvenient.

    That’s fair if you hound all sides equally. That was my point


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    overshoot wrote: »
    We do have prescribed lists of terrorist organisations, I'm happy to abide by that.

    You say you're we are the one looking to demonise the British state but you are the one happy to hold it to the same account as the terrorist organisations, what sort of bar is that? For SF's questionable past, I've never voted for them either.

    The aim here isn't to demonise Britain, it's to get the truth we know it withholds. If it protects the individuals, changing evidence (ie blackening victims names such as here at ballymurphy), delays evidence, crimes in itself, it makes itself bad and makes it impossible to define how far the rot actually went by withholding the truth. The European commission on Human rights has had to not just open but reopen, cases against it due to lack of action on cases.

    Anyway im going to just duck out here, your view is we demonise the UK. My view is simply, the state should carry itself above the level of terrorists. If there is to be any truth and reconciliation forums, Westminster and the dail should be leading the way by example and repenting for any of their past misgivings, not waiting on the members of the various IRAs, UVF, UDA etc whatever they may be doing today, that isn't the level to set your bar.
    Ps you might note the emphasis on truth, not prosecution...

    Try telling the family of paul Quinn, who see his torturers/murders in the local shop each day who are still leaning on the community and see the godfathers sitting in Stormont that it’s more important to catch the people who killed people in BM 50 years ago. Indeed the godfathers in the ni executive are calling for the BM killers to be prosecuted You couldn’t make it up


  • Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭lurleen lumpkin


    downcow wrote: »
    Try telling the family of paul Quinn, who see his torturers/murders in the local shop each day who are still leaning on the community and see the godfathers sitting in Stormont that it’s more important to catch the people who killed people in BM 50 years ago. Indeed the godfathers in the ni executive are calling for the BM killers to be prosecuted You couldn’t make it up

    Start your own thread about that then and stop trying to derail this one.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭overshoot


    downcow wrote: »
    Try telling the family of paul Quinn, who see his torturers/murders in the local shop each day who are still leaning on the community and see the godfathers sitting in Stormont that it’s more important to catch the people who killed people in BM 50 years ago. Indeed the godfathers in the ni executive are calling for the BM killers to be prosecuted You couldn’t make it up
    At least the gardai have activity pursued and got slab Murphy the ring leader in the area, even if it wasn't for that. Can the British state say the same? No.

    Did I say SF shouldn't come forward in truth and reconciliation? No, for the record I believe they should.
    I notice you never include the loyalists who have gone into stormont in theses posts btw

    I haven't said it's more important to investigate one death over the other, I said the British state shouldn't hold itself to the same level of moral authority as terrorists. It doesn't need the co-operation of terrorists to be truthful, I said it should lead by example


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭Barry904


    downcow wrote: »
    Try telling the family of paul Quinn, who see his torturers/murders in the local shop each day who are still leaning on the community and see the godfathers sitting in Stormont that it’s more important to catch the people who killed people in BM 50 years ago. Indeed the godfathers in the ni executive are calling for the BM killers to be prosecuted You couldn’t make it up

    Paul Quinn was killed two years after the IRA disbanded, former members of the IRA probably killed him that does not mean you can place blame on the IRA for it.

    If former mebers of the British army killed someone over a personal issue do you think the British army should be held responisble?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭Barry904


    overshoot wrote: »
    At least the gardai have activity pursued and got slab Murphy the ring leader in the area, even if it wasn't for that. Can the British state say the same? No.

    Did I say SF shouldn't come forward in truth and reconciliation? No, for the record I believe they should.
    I notice you never include the loyalists who have gone into stormont in theses posts btw

    I haven't said it's more important to investigate one death over the other, I said the British state shouldn't hold itself to the same level of moral authority as terrorists. It doesn't need the co-operation of terrorists to be truthful, I said it should lead by example

    To be fair the former loyalist paramiltary politicians are part of a tiny Political group and not part of the main party representing protestants whereas the IRA is now the largest political party in the South and second largest in the North.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,204 ✭✭✭overshoot


    Barry904 wrote: »
    To be fair the former loyalist paramiltary politicians are part of a tiny Political group and not part of the main party representing protestants whereas the IRA is now the largest political party in the South and second largest in the North.
    Popular vote yes, although Fianna Fail is the largest party on seats and up until the last decade sinn Fein probably weren't far off the % seats in the dail as the PUV in stormont. Short memories and tbh, a high chunk in ROI care as little about the north as the english do.

    Anyway, I've said I do believe they should come forward with the truth, but even if they get into power, which I won't be particularly happy about, their dirty past knowledge isn't going to be on government file as with the British government. You still need 'voluntary' information and you can't put pressure on them without some moral high ground. Families all around should know what happened, it shouldn't all come out when everyone is dead, someone has to give first, thus my point the British government should look to be held to the same level as terrorists.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭Barry904


    overshoot wrote: »
    Popular vote yes, although Fianna Fail is the largest party on seats and up until the last decade sinn Fein probably weren't far off the % seats in the dail as the PUV in stormont. Short memories and tbh, a high chunk in ROI care as little about the north as the english do.

    Anyway, I've said I do believe they should come forward with the truth, but even if they get into power, which I won't be particularly happy about, their dirty past knowledge isn't going to be on government file as with the British government. You still need 'voluntary' information and you can't put pressure on them without some moral high ground. Families all around should know what happened, it shouldn't all come out when everyone is dead, someone has to give first, thus my point the British government should look to be held to the same level as terrorists.

    Republicans have always called for a truth and reconciliation process, the British government are the only ones opposed to it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 59 ✭✭Barry904


    overshoot wrote: »
    Popular vote yes, although Fianna Fail is the largest party on seats and up until the last decade sinn Fein probably weren't far off the % seats in the dail as the PUV in stormont. Short memories and tbh, a high chunk in ROI care as little about the north as the english do.

    Anyway, I've said I do believe they should come forward with the truth, but even if they get into power, which I won't be particularly happy about, their dirty past knowledge isn't going to be on government file as with the British government. You still need 'voluntary' information and you can't put pressure on them without some moral high ground. Families all around should know what happened, it shouldn't all come out when everyone is dead, someone has to give first, thus my point the British government should look to be held to the same level as terrorists.

    They barely put any any effort into the campaign down south until the mid 2000s so they really be compared.

    The largest poll on IRA support during the troubles taken in 1979 by CAIN showed 25% of people in the Republic fully supporting the PIRA it also showed 88% of people wanting complet and immediate unequivical withdrawal from Northern Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭Miniegg


    downcow wrote: »
    I appreciate your honest engagement. I think part of the problem is that Republicanism wants to demonise 'the British'. I am British, and the British state has been a very positive contribution to my community (and by this I include the entire Northern Ireland community) and my quality of life.
    Of course, like any state, individuals have got things wrong and acted in times in a disgraceful manner; that does not make the state bad.
    I would be living with you in your country had your state not discriminated against my father. I am not obsessed with looking for apologies and raking over the past. There is not a country or community in the world that I am aware of who do not have big skeletons in their cupboards and not done terrible things to people. Where does this all stop. These killings we are referring to are 50 years ago.
    If Sinn Fein get elected to power in your country, how will you feel about people who have been responsible for endless horrific damage to people's lives, sitting at your Parliament, some of them probably with letters assuring them that they will not be prosecuted? It is difficult to watch old men who have had nothing to do with politics etc for 50 years being hounded while we have people at the very top of power in both our countries who have committed horrendous crimes that they are proud of to this day

    Downcow – I don’t know what to say. You seem to accept that these people were innocent and unarmed, and by default that their killings were murder in cold blood. Your argument seems to be (and I am trying to keep it relevant to these events and strip out deflections or unrelated sidesteps):

    Soldiers who fired bullets into a crowd of men, women and children, and subsequently murdered 10 innocent people in cold blood (which you accept) should not face justice. Even though what happened has been proven to be murder by a UK coroner.

    The government (who represent you) that have covered it up for the last 50 years should not be held to account, or be expected to be held to account. Although the primary goal of government is to protect its own citizens, ‘mistakes happen’ and these murders are simply one of those mistakes.

    The reason that the British government and its soldiers shouldn’t be held to account is that

    • It happened a long time ago and should be forgotten about.

    • Terrorist groups operated in Northern Ireland. Even though these groups were not related in any way to the people who the soldiers murdered in Ballymurphy (which you accept), their presence in the country and ill deeds means the state murder of these British citizens should be allowed. The cover up and smearing of their good name should be allowed.

    • The British government have done good things for the Unionist community, and all of the people of Northern Ireland, so the bad things should be ignored and forgotten about.

    Any calls for justice by the families of the poor people who were murdered, or by people who find the whole thing disgraceful, should not be considered. They are not looking for justice. What they are really doing is demonizing the soldiers who carried out the murders, and demonizing the British.


    Maybe I am putting words in your mouth but I don’t think I am. That is genuinely what I pick up when reading through your posts. The mental gymnastics of that viewpoint is mind boggling, but if that is indeed your viewpoint, no arguing from me or anyone on here will be able to untangle it or change your mind on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    downcow wrote: »
    That’s fair if you hound all sides equally. That was my point

    The murdered in the Ballymurphy Massacre and their families are not on a side. They are people like yourself in your jurisdiction.
    You are advocating for one rule for all in all incidences. That's not justice.
    Any decision made on tackling any crimes regarding sides fighting sides, combatants, is far removed from innocent members of the public being murdered by representatives of their state.
    The fact it took 50 years to acknowledge it is a crime in itself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Start your own thread about that then and stop trying to derail this one.

    I am simply challenging the idea being expressed here that some murder victims have been done a greater injustice than others. Tell people to stop claiming that and I will stop challenging it


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Barry904 wrote: »
    Paul Quinn was killed two years after the IRA disbanded, former members of the IRA probably killed him that does not mean you can place blame on the IRA for it.

    If former mebers of the British army killed someone over a personal issue do you think the British army should be held responisble?

    The ira have not disbanded and well you know it


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    downcow wrote: »
    The ira have not disbanded and well you know it




    Bit odd that the Brits, Americans and Irish governments think otherwise. You should pass on your information to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,281 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    The merry-go-round continues


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Miniegg wrote: »
    Downcow – I don’t know what to say. You seem to accept that these people were innocent and unarmed, and by default that their killings were murder in cold blood. Your argument seems to be (and I am trying to keep it relevant to these events and strip out deflections or unrelated sidesteps):

    Soldiers who fired bullets into a crowd of men, women and children, and subsequently murdered 10 innocent people in cold blood (which you accept) should not face justice. Even though what happened has been proven to be murder by a UK coroner.

    The government (who represent you) that have covered it up for the last 50 years should not be held to account, or be expected to be held to account. Although the primary goal of government is to protect its own citizens, ‘mistakes happen’ and these murders are simply one of those mistakes.

    The reason that the British government and its soldiers shouldn’t be held to account is that

    • It happened a long time ago and should be forgotten about.

    • Terrorist groups operated in Northern Ireland. Even though these groups were not related in any way to the people who the soldiers murdered in Ballymurphy (which you accept), their presence in the country and ill deeds means the state murder of these British citizens should be allowed. The cover up and smearing of their good name should be allowed.

    • The British government have done good things for the Unionist community, and all of the people of Northern Ireland, so the bad things should be ignored and forgotten about.

    Any calls for justice by the families of the poor people who were murdered, or by people who find the whole thing disgraceful, should not be considered. They are not looking for justice. What they are really doing is demonizing the soldiers who carried out the murders, and demonizing the British.


    Maybe I am putting words in your mouth but I don’t think I am. That is genuinely what I pick up when reading through your posts. The mental gymnastics of that viewpoint is mind boggling, but if that is indeed your viewpoint, no arguing from me or anyone on here will be able to untangle it or change your mind on it.

    Interesting that you cannot even hear my main point. Really interesting.

    You can look back. My main point is crystal clear. Equity.
    I am actually torn as to whether there should be an amnesty. But here is the point.

    EITHER HAVE ENQUIRIES AND SEEK PROSECUTIONS OF ALL KILLERS OR LET THEM ALL OFF

    Can I be any clearer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    downcow wrote: »
    Interesting that you cannot even hear my main point. Really interesting.

    You can look back. My main point is crystal clear. Equity.
    I am actually torn as to whether there should be an amnesty. But here is the point.

    EITHER HAVE ENQUIRIES AND SEEK PROSECUTIONS OF ALL KILLERS OR LET THEM ALL OFF

    Can I be any clearer?

    The victims of the Ballymurphy Massacre were private individuals murdered. What has the UVF or IRA got to do with their own army, the BA, killing them?
    What has an amnesty got to do with them or the U.K. covering tarnishing the names of the victims for 50 years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Shebean wrote: »
    The victims of the Ballymurphy Massacre were private individuals murdered. What has the UVF or IRA got to do with their own army, the BA, killing them?
    What has an amnesty got to do with them or the U.K. covering tarnishing the names of the victims for 50 years?

    Still waiting on his thread...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,015 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    Still waiting on his thread...
    The one about the hundreds of Protestants being tortured then killed by the IRA [in their Romper Rooms]?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Bit odd that the Brits, Americans and Irish governments think otherwise. You should pass on your information to them.

    Bit odd that they can exert control if they don’t exist. Don’t you think?
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/what-evidence-is-there-that-the-ira-still-controls-sinn-f%25C3%25A9in-1.4182679%3fmode=amp


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Esel wrote: »
    The one about the hundreds of Protestants being tortured then killed by the IRA [in their Romper Rooms]?

    The very one


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,112 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Esel wrote: »
    The one about the hundreds of Protestants being tortured then killed by the IRA [in their Romper Rooms]?

    The ira were not sectarian
    Gerry Adam’s was never in the ira
    The ira did not torture and kill people
    Martin mcg left the ira in 1972


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,015 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    downcow wrote: »
    The ira were not sectarian
    Gerry Adam’s was never in the ira
    The ira did not torture and kill people
    Martin mcg left the ira in 1972
    Mary is where, how now?

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭Shebean


    Still waiting on his thread...

    Imagine if the BA engaged in the Coventry Massacre, covered for over 50 years and the victims families were told, "but the IRA".
    That analogy only works if people take N.I. being part of the U.K. all the time not just when it suits.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,991 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    downcow wrote: »




    Yet the DUP carry on in Government with SF.


  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭Miniegg


    downcow wrote:
    I am simply challenging the idea being expressed here that some murder victims have been done a greater injustice than others. Tell people to stop claiming that and I will stop challenging it


    Downcow I haven't read one post on here saying there is a hierarchy of victims, only from you. What people are saying is that there is a hierarchy of murderers.

    The IRAs responsibility wasn't to protect the people of Northern Ireland, the Loyalist Paras responsibility wasn't to protect the people of Northern Ireland.

    That responsibility was with the British State and instead of doing that they murdered their own innocent citizens and lied about it, and having been caught out, are drafting legislation so that justice will never be served.

    It's a wonder why your viewpoint isn't "I hope these killers of innocents are shown justice, and I hope the killers of people in my community are shown justice."

    With you evidently knowing innocent people who have been on the receiving end of some pretty brutal violence, and your lack of empathy for the Ballymurphy people, who I would argue have more in common with you than sociopathic soldiers or duplicitous politicians, is crazy to me.

    It really does highlight the sad divisions that exist in the North, and how tribalism trumps morality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,015 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    'Normal' service will resume after 22:05 when the Eurovision finishes. No ads on BBC4 - it's great!

    Not your ornery onager



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    downcow wrote: »
    The ira were not sectarian
    Gerry Adam’s was never in the ira
    The ira did not torture and kill people
    Martin mcg left the ira in 1972

    Can you take that to the appropriate thread and stop besmirching the memory of those 10 people MURDERED by the British State for no reason other than they were Irish in Belfast in the 1970's.

    You know one of the victims of the State sanctioned massacre was in the British Army himself? You knew that right?


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