Raised in England - irish blood. Irish?

flanna01

Hamsterchops wrote: »

British or Irish, or a combination of both, or maybe neither?

But they would not be English, unless both parents were English, then they (might) qualify to be English even if they were born in Northern Ireland.

And here is where the cookie crumbles...

There are plenty of people walking around the north today that are British to the core, even after being born on the Island of Ireland...

I'm not getting into any political clap-trap - I couldn't care less what any individual calls themselves be they English or Irish.

My point is this..

A third or fourth generation fellow born in the north to 'British' parents will rightly address himself as English going forward.... His parents will have the picture(s) of the Queen hanging up, and will promote all things British. I wouldn't dream of referring to this dude as Irish.

The flip side of that coin is relevant to the other side too... Young Johnny is born in Manchester to Irish parents. They bring him up with Irish values, traditions and a love for the home land..

It was only for the want of work that his parents moved to England. Just because he was born in England makes him no more Non Irish than his counterpart in the North who claims to be English, although born in Ireland.

The rock that you are born on should not define a persons nationality.. The Clan that they come from is who they are... Their DNA, their family, their loved ones are all from the same blood family, not some rock bed somewhere.

I can walk down the road of any City and point out an Asian man.. he might have a strong Dublin accent or a strong cockney accent... But he's still an Chinese man.

Sunny Disposition

If they identify as Irish I guess they are, it's all Irish blood in them. Then if they want to identify as English they have that option too.

Years ago in Sydney I met a guy who had an accent cockney enough to be on Eastenders, but had been brought from Galway to London as a kid. Unquestionably he was Irish, he was born in Ireland to Irish parents, but in the Irish bars of Sydney young backpacker types were giving him racist abuse because they incorrectly assumed he was English, solely because of his accent.Crazy situation to be in.

SuperSean11

People can choose their gender, why not their nationality

Sunny Disposition

Its only when you spend some time abroad that I think you see how complex this is. It is weird to meet someone who tells you they are Irish too and when you ask where they're from they tell you they've never actually been to Ireland. But that is the way with some people.

The DayDream

They are but they will never be accepted as such if they don't have an Irish accent. Just the way Irish people are. I was born here, grew up in the US and have been back now 15 years. No one refers to me as Irish due to my accent, and in fact they seem to get offended when they would ask where I was from and I would say the county I was born in

'That's not a (rural county name)' accent,' they would growl suspiciously, as if I was trying to claim some culchie cred I'm not entitled to. Or they think I'm 'one of those Yanks thinks he's Irish cuz his great granny is from here.'

It's actually quite annoying at times, especially any time I end up in any sort of disagreement or awkward situation, the fact I'm American (even though I'm not) seems to mean I am automatically in the wrong no matter what. Need to return an item in a shop or ask a question about something? Prepare to get an eye roll because it's due to you being a big mouth stupid American.

I was crossing the road once years ago, from one corner to another, and a fella in a car who had been driving parallel to me now wanted to turn right at the intersection, to go down the road I was in the process of crossing over. He roared at me, 'Hurry up, would ya!'

I figured it was someone I knew having a laugh. But when I saw it wasn't, I roared back that he could Foxtrot Oscar. I don't think he was expecting that as he was one of those big beardy fellas who looked like, as the comedian Kevin Bridges says, 'Works in Carphone Warehouse but he's training for the apocalypse.'

An exchange of words ensued and since he was obviously the one in the wrong, all he had left as a comeback was, 'You're American, are ya?'

Because I guess if you are, that means you should sprint across the road so some príck in an Audi doesn't have to wait 3 seconds.

What's even worse is I had an Irish accent as a child when we emigrated. My first day at my (majority black) school when I spoke everyone turned around and looked at me like wtf. Then at recess I was cornered and asked 'Don't you want to be American?'

I foolishly replied that I didn't because (as my father had told me) 'Americans are stupid.'
That went over well.

secman

The answer really lies with the people themselves, they will decide whether they are Irish or English, plenty of examples in sport. Rooney, Kane, Grealish, Rice, all have Irish heritage parents/Grandparents but they all ultimately decided they were English.
Paul Mcgrath decided he was Irish. So it doesn't matter what we think, its how they feel.
Like Rory Mcllroy, whilst born in NI with a Catholic background which would usually persuade people to view themselves Irish, he said he feels more British than Irish.

Gregor Samsa

There's Irish citizenship, and there's Irish heritage. Two different things.

Citizenship is governed by Irish law. If you fulfil the criteria of the law, and whatever bureaucracy applicable, you're Irish in terms of citizenship. It's pretty black and white.

Irish by heritage, or the broad concept of ethnicity, is much more nebulous. If you consider yourself Irish by whatever heritage you claim from a parent or parents, that's up to you. It really means very little to me, but if it means something to you, knock yourself out. Anyone trying to apply hard and fast rules to it is wasting their time.

Outside of the legal framework of the rights of citizens, some people get far too hung up about the identity of others.

ILoveYourVibes

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

Yes I do...well anglo Irish. You can be both british and irish.

But its a complex issue.

No1

I tend to think people who have to tell everyone ' I am irish'.... are doing so because there is no other way for people to know. But in saying that it tends to be Americans that say that. I think London Irish etc know that the way their parents are treated in certain circumstances and the way they are treated is occasionally different.

A lot of people THINK they grew up with that identity ..but really they haven't.

No one is going to tell them to 'go home paddy' or put on a job interview review 'Too Irish'.

Whereas they DO tend to get hassle here sometimes because of the accent. So i am not sure they really do grow up with the same identity i did.

With respect to northern ireland ....london irish or british irish people tend to have a more nuanced and better approach.

They tend to realize the two tiered approach to policing there the deaths of innocent irish people is a human rights issue. But they also tend to realize the IRA don't care about human rights. But they realize the UDA don't either.

People who call themselves Irish American seem to think Irish unity is the answer to the issue achieved in any way and at any cost ..whereas Anglo Irish people tend to realize equality and human rights is.

Irish Americans often want to live in a world where they can celebrate scottish /Irish/ Anglo Saxon culture as ONE thing. March like orange men with scottish kilts playing an Irish tune.

But they don't understand that we often CANNOT march with these people ....and that we don't march in any way.

We couldn't go marching with scottish orange men singing irish tunes.

Anglo Irish people ..nearly all of the time get this.

Anglo Irish people also get that joking about being in the IRA as an irish person ..is deeply damaging to us ..on a public platform.

Whereas i have heard Irish Americans telling stories about how they convinced this person they were in the IRA etc. Without realizing Irish people have been locked up for this. I don't think an Anglo Irish person would ever do something like that. I think they would emphasize the IRA is not representative of Irish people and we shoudn't have to feel shame for what terrorists do any more than muslims should have to feel shame for islamic extremists. I mean the amount of times i have been told to condemn the IRA and apologize etc. Its ridiculous. Its like they think i was in the IRA! (this is mostly online).

Whereas i would never think to shame a british person as an individual for the UDA or the British army.

Saying all this if they felt they weren't Irish and british only ..im fine with that too.

ILoveYourVibes

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Its only when you spend some time abroad that I think you see how complex this is. It is weird to meet someone who tells you they are Irish too and when you ask where they're from they tell you they've never actually been to Ireland. But that is the way with some people.

I think its more like this.


If a white looking person tells a black looking person they are black ...because a great grandparent grandparent was.


I don't go around telling people I am Irish. I don't have to.

I mean if you have to TELL people particularly Irish people that you are Irish ..that might give you a hint ...that there is a difference ...not necessarily that you are not Irish at all ...but no one would ever assume an Irish person was American...even if they have one American parent. The perception of them in America is always going to be 'Irish'.

I have a friend whose dad is American ..but she was raised in Ireland ...every time she goes to the states ....people don't celebrate her Americaness ...they perceive her as fully Irish even AFTER she tells them about her dad.

I think when Anglo Irish people explain it ..they do it better ....but its usually closer ...i mean its their parents. You find out their irish background through a story of them visiting an Aunt here etc. It feels more natural.

But if its Americans ...its usually not always but usually more distant.

They have to tell you I'm Irish. they have no story or feeling for ireland. Its just that statement.

Plus ...its not always easy to be Irish in the UK. Partic right now.

Whereas it is very advantageous in the US. And I notice Irish identity is worn more lightly ..in that its disregarded when its NOT a good thing to be sometimes or doesn't fit in with the fantasy. For example many 'Irish Americans' voted for trump ....even after he supported brexit and said the border was going to be great.

I remember this...

John Lennon ....NEVER went on about being Irish ..for an advantage.

But straight after Bloody Sunday ...he wrote a song

He also wrote this.

If you had the luck of the Irish,
You'd be sorry and wish you were dead
You should have the luck of the Irish
And you'd wish you was English instead

That is someone who really really gets it.

He received a lot of flack for this.

He never praised the IRA but instead protested to try and pressure the British govt to remove troops from NI.

According to Carr and fellow NME writer Tony Tyler, Lennon's prestige in England nosedived as a result of the song's accusations of genocide

I am not saying that Anglo Irish people have to like PROVE their irishness ...with gestures of irish nationalism...

But i mean daniel hannan of UKIP ..his parents are actually Irish. Some of the things he has said about us are outright anti -Irish. And he moves in circles that i dare say we would not be welcomed in.

El Tarangu

flanna01 wrote: »

Young Johnny is born in Manchester to Irish parents. They bring him up with Irish values, traditions and a love for the home land..

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I have three sets of cousins that grew up in London, Bradford and Coventry. London cousins, may aswell be English, Bradford ones are more of Irish persuasion, my cousin shouts for Ireland in sport.

This is why I think that this problematic: as far as Irish people living in Britain being brought up watching GAA and learning Irish dancing or whatever - sure, why not.

But you need look no further than Bradford to see why it's important that immigrants should begin to integrate into their new home.

It seems harmless enough when it's céilís in Kilburn or Irish pubs in the Bronx, but in Belgium and France you routinely see riots after football matches - and not when Belgium or PSG or Anderlecht are playing, but when Morocco plays against Cote d'Ivoire, or Algeria plays against Tunisia.

ILoveYourVibes

SuperSean11 wrote: »

People can choose their gender, why not their nationality

Can i be russian! ??:p

BTW I support the sincerity of the trans gendered person and their gender. I don't think its a choice.

El Tarangu

The DayDream wrote: »

... the fact I'm American (even though I'm not) ...

The DayDream wrote: »

to turn right at the intersection

Sus

theteal

A topic very close to "home". I've a 4yr old who sounds like Peppa Pig with a few Dublinisms thrown in - the locals think she sounds Irish (she doesn't). Football to her involves kicking and catching, which she can do better than some adults I know (I can provide video evidence!). She would probably give you evils if you called her English but then again likes to throw a few "F" sounds in place of "Th" when she's trying to wreck her old man's head. As for what she is. . . .a bit of both I suppose (she's got the passports to prove it), not that it matters really.

ILoveYourVibes

theteal wrote: »

A topic very close to "home". I've a 4yr old who sounds like Peppa Pig with a few Dublinisms thrown in - the locals think she sounds Irish (she doesn't). Football to her involves kicking and catching, which she can do better than some adults I know (I can provide video evidence!). She would probably give you evils if you called her English but then again likes to throw a few "F" sounds in place of "Th" when she's trying to wreck her old man's head. As for what she is. . . .a bit of both I suppose (she's got the passports to prove it), not that it matters really.

Adorbs!:P

SharpshooterTom

I'm in this situation, born and raised in England till I was 14, then moved here to Northern Ireland (mum from Belfast, dad from Louth). Still have an English accent after living here for 20 years.

In England I was called Irish, here I'm called English. Typical 2nd generation Irish story I suppose.

I don't really feel either, nor have I a yearning desire to be either, so I allow people to call me what they want. I don't support Ireland or England at sports, don't care who wins, or when they play each other in Rugby.

Always thought about moving to USA/Canada/Australia one day, and I think if I ever naturalised I'd probably consider myself that as my primary nationality rather than English or Irish.

positron

It entirely depends on who you ask.

If OP grew up in Congo, India or China, he would be considered Irish there, and when he's back in Ireland, even if he speaking with Indian or Chinese accent people are hardly going to call him Indian or Chinese - he will be Irish or Irish-ish.

And if an Chinese/Indian kid born in Ireland and grows up speaking with Irish accent etc - vast majority of Irish will not consider that person Irish.

SharpshooterTom

positron wrote: »

And if an Chinese/Indian kid born in Ireland and grows up speaking with Irish accent etc - vast majority of Irish will not consider that person Irish.

I don't know if that's true, I think most people probably would, or at least Irish-Chinese or Irish-Indian.

I also think ethnonationalism can be quite problematic as well, especially in an increasingly multiracial/diverse society, it can lead to a lot of people feeling very confused about their identity.

Is a kid born and raised in Ireland to Nigerian parents more Irish than me? I would say so.

Hoboo

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes I do...well anglo Irish. You can be both british and irish.

You really cant.

You're either Irish or something else, and you most definitely can't be Anglo Irish, a term which in itself is nauseating. It screams "I'm British but I think it's cool to claim some Irishness"

No proud Irish person would want to be half anything else, and that's what make you Irish. It's not about wearing green or having the craic. It's pride. The fact you're proud to be Irish and thankful you're not something else. Like British.

Larbre34

The acid test for that is, some Brits would love to be viewed as both British and Irish.

However, no Irish person would want to be regarded as both Irish and British. If they do, then they're just British.

SharpshooterTom

Larbre34 wrote: »

The acid test for that is, some Brits would love to be viewed as both British and Irish.

However, no Irish person would want to be regarded as both Irish and British. If they do, then they're just British.

Plenty of people in the north do, certainly those from mixed backgrounds.

Brendan Rodgers described himself as a British coach after winning the FA Cup with Leicester on Saturday.

His Mother was a protestant though.

bigar

There is an easy test. To be considered Irish, the person needs to:

- have ginger hair
- be drunk most of the time
- go to church every day and twice on Sunday
- be very lucky in whatever they do
- welcoming everyone they meet with "Top o’ the Morning"

If not, they are obviously not Irish.

Feenix

bigar wrote: »

There is an easy test. To be considered Irish, the person needs to:

- have ginger hair
- be drunk most of the time
- go to church every day and twice on Sunday
- be very lucky in whatever they do
- welcoming everyone they meet with "Top o’ the Morning"

If not, they are obviously not Irish.

That's embarrassing. Can't believe you posted that.

Bobblehats

bigar wrote: »

There is an easy test. To be considered Irish, the person needs to:

- have ginger hair
- be drunk most of the time
- go to church every day and twice on Sunday
- be very lucky in whatever they do
- welcoming everyone they meet with "Top o’ the Morning"

If not, they are obviously not Irish.

Big bushy ginger hair is it? And what about freckles, you forgot the freckles

Preferably not those dark freckles; that look like blackheads. An unsightly mutation that has come to my attention of late..

FlubberJones

Hoboo wrote: »

You really cant.

You're either Irish or something else, and you most definitely can't be Anglo Irish, a term which in itself is nauseating. It screams "I'm British but I think it's cool to claim some Irishness"

No proud Irish person would want to be half anything else, and that's what make you Irish. It's not about wearing green or having the craic. It's pride. The fact you're proud to be Irish and thankful you're not something else. Like British.

"it's cool to claim some irishness".... where on earth did this come from

SharpshooterTom

bigar wrote: »

There is an easy test. To be considered Irish, the person needs to:

- have ginger hair
- be drunk most of the time
- go to church every day and twice on Sunday
- be very lucky in whatever they do
- welcoming everyone they meet with "Top o’ the Morning"

If not, they are obviously not Irish.

Is this the Daily Mails official test for Irishness?

markest

They, you, me in fact everyone is a human being. We are all part of the country we know as Earth.

Hoboo

Hoboo wrote: »

You really cant.

You're either Irish or something else.

Bull****, of course you can be Irish and something else.

SharpshooterTom

bubblypop wrote: »

Bull****, of course you can be Irish and something else.

A lot of people don't understand the concept of dual nationality.

Larbre34

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

Plenty of people in the north do, certainly those from mixed backgrounds.

Brendan Rodgers described himself as a British coach after winning the FA Cup with Leicester on Saturday.

His Mother was a protestant though.

You're missing my point.

Plenty of Irish people in the 6 counties just want to be described as Irish, which they are constitutionally entitled to do and yes, they are absolutely Irish.

But anyone wants to describe themselves as Irish and British or Irish and Northern Irish or just Northern Irish, is not Irish. They are just yellow pack British.

There is so such legitimate entity as 'Northern Ireland' and so it follows that there is no such identity as Northern Irish. When it comes to people like Rory McIlroy, I'd respect his position a lot more if he just fessed up and said 'I'm British.' At least its legitimate and principled.

Larbre34

bubblypop wrote: »

Bull****, of course you can be Irish and something else.

Once its not British.

No, I'm not joking.