Raised in England - irish blood. Irish?

Brussels Sprout

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

banie01

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

Can they play football or are they adept at any other international sport?
Are they of an artistic bent?

Then of course they are Irish

On a serious note though.
Immigrant communities do tend to hold on to their heritage that little bit tighter.
Be it marrying within their diaspora, holding traditions from "home" that may well have died out back there and being very strident and active in their identifying as Irish.

Legally, they are Irish.
Culturally, they are Irish.
By their own identification, access to passports and our own tradition of embracing diaspora?
They are, so let's embrace them.

As an example, my oldest friends are Leicester born and raised to Irish parents.
They are Irish, they were raised in Irish community and moved back to Ireland to be bullied by me over their weird accents.

That is a very complex question.

Accent has a lot to do with it, I have heard people say in a meeting for example...you know that English fella they can't think of his name but they know if they say that English fella everyone will know who they mean., now everyone knows who the English fella is even though he has lived in Ireland for 20 years had Irish parents and is married to an Irish person. The accent marks them out.

Obviously they are Irish.
This country voted that people born here are not automatically Irish. If you have an Irish parent, then you are irish.
if they were born in England before a certain year, they are automatically English also.

biko

If they are born in England to two Irish parents, have Irish citizenship and consider themselves Irish then they are quite Irish but still born overseas.

If a child in France is born to Irish parents but only take on French traditions, speak only French at school and home, then I consider them French with Irish heritage.

flanna01

A lot of the Irish were forced to leave Ireland back in the 50's & 60's to find work, most left with heavy hearts knowing they were losing contact with their loved ones (*Note - Cell phones and Zoom calls unheard of)

A lot of the Irish were subjected to racial abuse, both in America, England and further a field..

They overcame this suppression as only the fighting Irish could, they had children and lived their lives by the traditional values of the Irish culture. Their children were raised in the same manner.

The children of these immigrants born in England are as Irish as their parents. Is a kitten born in the dog house a puppy?

Our cousins born in the north of Ireland that swear allegiance to the Crown, are they really Irishmen with a desire to be British?? Certainly not! They have been reared for many generations as British subjects, with the British cultures and traditions instilled within them by their Parents and Grandparents etc..

A Chinese speaking family landing in Dublin awaiting a for a connecting flight to Beijing get caught short, the Mother gives birth to her third child in the Irish capital - Is the child an Irishman? Of course not.. He will grow up in China and adopt their ways... His Irish heritage will be no more than a funny story to tell at parties and the like

I would suggest that all first generation children born outside of their Parents native homes should be automatically considered the same nationality as their respective Parents.

A child doesn't know what land mass it's born on. A child could be born in the caves of Afghanistan with his Mother singing him to sleep to the tune of Oh Danny Boy, the child would know no difference. Whatever values and traditions the Parents instil in their children is what they are, be that Irish, Chinese, or Afghan.

Your Surname is what Clan you belong to.... And that's all that really matters.

fryup

they may look irish and have irish surnames but at the end of day ..they're english

example A

KungPao

Once they support Man Utd or Liverpool, watch Eastenders and Sky News, and buy The Sun, they are as Irish as anyone.

KungPao

fryup wrote: »

they may look irish and have irish surnames but at the end of day ..they're english

example A

Noel and Liam Gallagher have 100% Irish blood. Though seem as English as Yorkshire pudding and gravy.

I see sheep

Yes

Mrs OBumble

Are you asking about their nationality, citizenship, ethnicity or race?

Some people have the misfortune of having a Wexford accent.

I wouldn't hold the accent against them.

Brussels Sprout

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

I would consider them Irish but I wouldn't consider their children Irish, even with the exact same criteria.

eviltwin

I don't consider them Irish. My in laws have raised their kids in the UK, they are English, they don't have any connection to this country bar the fact their parents are from here. My parents are also foreign born but I was born and raised here and consider myself Irish, my parents country of origin has no significance for me.

Canis Lupus

Raised bit is the key part for me. Legally they can consider themselves Irish but culturally they're English and I would consider them English.

I was born in the UK myself. Irish mother English dad but they left when I was very very young for Ireland. I have only fleeting memories of it. I was reared in Ireland. I consider myself Irish as I simply can't be anything else but legally I'm English as that's on the birth cert.

Macy0161

I'd say "It depends".

I am one of those cases, albeit my mother was 2nd generation Irish. I've never considered myself anything other than Irish. I wanted to live here from as long as I could remember, and did the first opportunity that occurred. I always correct people that I have an English accent, I'm not English (and do the same when I hear people describe others based upon accent).

I went to a Catholic Primary School/ Christian Brother secondary, so there was lots of us with similar backgrounds - it was very much a mixed bag as how people felt. The Gallaghers were mentioned above, and that shows how individual it is - Liam, well is Liam; Noel is very much aware of his heritage but is English; Paul spends a lot of time in Ireland/ Mayo.

corner of hells

flanna01 wrote: »

A lot of the Irish were forced to leave Ireland back in the 50's & 60's to find work, most left with heavy hearts knowing they were losing contact with their loved ones (*Note - Cell phones and Zoom calls unheard of)

A lot of the Irish were subjected to racial abuse, both in America, England and further a field..

They overcame this suppression as only the fighting Irish could, they had children and lived their lives by the traditional values of the Irish culture. Their children were raised in the same manner.

The children of these immigrants born in England are as Irish as their parents. Is a kitten born in the dog house a puppy?

Our cousins born in the north of Ireland that swear allegiance to the Crown, are they really Irishmen with a desire to be British?? Certainly not! They have been reared for many generations as British subjects, with the British cultures and traditions instilled within them by their Parents and Grandparents etc..

A Chinese speaking family landing in Dublin awaiting a for a connecting flight to Beijing get caught short, the Mother gives birth to her third child in the Irish capital - Is the child an Irishman? Of course not.. He will grow up in China and adopt their ways... His Irish heritage will be no more than a funny story to tell at parties and the like

I would suggest that all first generation children born outside of their Parents native homes should be automatically considered the same nationality as their respective Parents.

A child doesn't know what land mass it's born on. A child could be born in the caves of Afghanistan with his Mother singing him to sleep to the tune of Oh Danny Boy, the child would know no difference. Whatever values and traditions the Parents instil in their children is what they are, be that Irish, Chinese, or Afghan.

Your Surname is what Clan you belong to.... And that's all that really matters.

That a song isn't it ?
It have verses and lots of bollix talk, definitely coukd see some teary eyed drunk singing it at a funeral.

Hyperbollix

No. The environment you grow up in has much more of an impact on you than the land you're parents originally came from.

Paul Mcgrath may have been born in England to an African father but he is 100% Irish. So many aspects of his character are just intrinsically Irish.

Noel Gallagher on the other hand may what some think is a stronger connection to Ireland but he is 100% English and northern English on top of it.

PCeeeee

No

partyguinness

No.

Born and raised but I'll accept raised in Ireland is the only qualifying criteria IMO.

partyguinness

I live in England and married to an English women- are my kids Irish? No.

Halenvaneddie

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

Yes, plastic Paddy

Cilldara_2000

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

Growing up with that identity is the key but for me. I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone in this scenario that they are not Irish. Certainly they're more Irish than the vast swathes of Irish-Americans who call themselves Irish despite their connection to Ireland being far more distant that this scenario.

Also not sure why there's gatekeeping going on in this thread.

McGinniesta

plastic paddy whackery

Hamsterchops

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Raised in England - irish blood. Irish?

This old chestnut.
.... again

It all boils down to how the individual sees themselves and how they regard their own identity.

Captain Havoc

Yes they are. I'll give you three examples. I have three sets of cousins that grew up in London, Bradford and Coventry. London cousins, may aswell be English, Bradford ones are more of Irish persuasion, my cousin shouts for Ireland in sport. My Coventry cousins are a completely different kettle of fish, it's Irish centres, Irish dancing, hurling, gaelic football, Irish soccer team, catholic schools with other Irish kids, they are in an Irish bubble. They visit Ireland around hurling matches. I still communicate with one of their sons who played hurling, his grandparents left Kilkenny and his parents were born in Coventry, so I'd go as far to say that he's Irish too. The Irish centres did attract other minorities and some of the kids from non-English backgrounds played gaelic football in the summer.

Sadler Peak

Friend of mine was born in London to Irish parents, he just says he's London Irish. That's it.
Supports both England and Ireland in sports and sits on the fence when they play each other.

Another friend born and raised in London considers herself very much Irish. Will not support England in anything. She parents are from Newry so that may or maybe not be the reason for not supporting England.

flanna01

A person born in Belfast - Are they British or Irish?

Hamsterchops

flanna01 wrote: »

A person born in Belfast - Are they British or Irish?

British or Irish, or a combination of both, or maybe neither?

But they would not be English, unless both parents were English, then they (might) qualify to be English even if they were born in Northern Ireland.

El Tarangu

Tbh I don't think that Irish parents living abroad should try to hammer into their kids that they are 'Irish'; I've met people who were brought up abroad to Irish parents, and they kind of have an identity crisis.

As in, sometimes they try to play up on the Irish thing when they meet me (I live outside Ireland, for clarity), and I'm left nodding along, puzzled and slightly embarrassed, while they go on about how "we Irish love X", or "sure, we are always doing Y" about some cliché that foreign people think about Irish people, whereas in fact anyone that was brought up in Ireland would know that this is not really the reality.

flanna01

Hamsterchops wrote: »

British or Irish, or a combination of both, or maybe neither?

But they would not be English, unless both parents were English, then they (might) qualify to be English even if they were born in Northern Ireland.

And here is where the cookie crumbles...

There are plenty of people walking around the north today that are British to the core, even after being born on the Island of Ireland...

I'm not getting into any political clap-trap - I couldn't care less what any individual calls themselves be they English or Irish.

My point is this..

A third or fourth generation fellow born in the north to 'British' parents will rightly address himself as English going forward.... His parents will have the picture(s) of the Queen hanging up, and will promote all things British. I wouldn't dream of referring to this dude as Irish.

The flip side of that coin is relevant to the other side too... Young Johnny is born in Manchester to Irish parents. They bring him up with Irish values, traditions and a love for the home land..

It was only for the want of work that his parents moved to England. Just because he was born in England makes him no more Non Irish than his counterpart in the North who claims to be English, although born in Ireland.

The rock that you are born on should not define a persons nationality.. The Clan that they come from is who they are... Their DNA, their family, their loved ones are all from the same blood family, not some rock bed somewhere.

I can walk down the road of any City and point out an Asian man.. he might have a strong Dublin accent or a strong cockney accent... But he's still an Chinese man.

Sunny Disposition

If they identify as Irish I guess they are, it's all Irish blood in them. Then if they want to identify as English they have that option too.

Years ago in Sydney I met a guy who had an accent cockney enough to be on Eastenders, but had been brought from Galway to London as a kid. Unquestionably he was Irish, he was born in Ireland to Irish parents, but in the Irish bars of Sydney young backpacker types were giving him racist abuse because they incorrectly assumed he was English, solely because of his accent.Crazy situation to be in.

SuperSean11

People can choose their gender, why not their nationality

Sunny Disposition

Its only when you spend some time abroad that I think you see how complex this is. It is weird to meet someone who tells you they are Irish too and when you ask where they're from they tell you they've never actually been to Ireland. But that is the way with some people.

The DayDream

They are but they will never be accepted as such if they don't have an Irish accent. Just the way Irish people are. I was born here, grew up in the US and have been back now 15 years. No one refers to me as Irish due to my accent, and in fact they seem to get offended when they would ask where I was from and I would say the county I was born in

'That's not a (rural county name)' accent,' they would growl suspiciously, as if I was trying to claim some culchie cred I'm not entitled to. Or they think I'm 'one of those Yanks thinks he's Irish cuz his great granny is from here.'

It's actually quite annoying at times, especially any time I end up in any sort of disagreement or awkward situation, the fact I'm American (even though I'm not) seems to mean I am automatically in the wrong no matter what. Need to return an item in a shop or ask a question about something? Prepare to get an eye roll because it's due to you being a big mouth stupid American.

I was crossing the road once years ago, from one corner to another, and a fella in a car who had been driving parallel to me now wanted to turn right at the intersection, to go down the road I was in the process of crossing over. He roared at me, 'Hurry up, would ya!'

I figured it was someone I knew having a laugh. But when I saw it wasn't, I roared back that he could Foxtrot Oscar. I don't think he was expecting that as he was one of those big beardy fellas who looked like, as the comedian Kevin Bridges says, 'Works in Carphone Warehouse but he's training for the apocalypse.'

An exchange of words ensued and since he was obviously the one in the wrong, all he had left as a comeback was, 'You're American, are ya?'

Because I guess if you are, that means you should sprint across the road so some príck in an Audi doesn't have to wait 3 seconds.

What's even worse is I had an Irish accent as a child when we emigrated. My first day at my (majority black) school when I spoke everyone turned around and looked at me like wtf. Then at recess I was cornered and asked 'Don't you want to be American?'

I foolishly replied that I didn't because (as my father had told me) 'Americans are stupid.'
That went over well.

secman

The answer really lies with the people themselves, they will decide whether they are Irish or English, plenty of examples in sport. Rooney, Kane, Grealish, Rice, all have Irish heritage parents/Grandparents but they all ultimately decided they were English.
Paul Mcgrath decided he was Irish. So it doesn't matter what we think, its how they feel.
Like Rory Mcllroy, whilst born in NI with a Catholic background which would usually persuade people to view themselves Irish, he said he feels more British than Irish.

Gregor Samsa

There's Irish citizenship, and there's Irish heritage. Two different things.

Citizenship is governed by Irish law. If you fulfil the criteria of the law, and whatever bureaucracy applicable, you're Irish in terms of citizenship. It's pretty black and white.

Irish by heritage, or the broad concept of ethnicity, is much more nebulous. If you consider yourself Irish by whatever heritage you claim from a parent or parents, that's up to you. It really means very little to me, but if it means something to you, knock yourself out. Anyone trying to apply hard and fast rules to it is wasting their time.

Outside of the legal framework of the rights of citizens, some people get far too hung up about the identity of others.

ILoveYourVibes

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Imagine a person was born and raised in England to Irish parents. From an early age they were told that they were Irish and grew up with that identity. They speak with an English accent.

Would you consider them Irish?

Yes I do...well anglo Irish. You can be both british and irish.

But its a complex issue.

No1

I tend to think people who have to tell everyone ' I am irish'.... are doing so because there is no other way for people to know. But in saying that it tends to be Americans that say that. I think London Irish etc know that the way their parents are treated in certain circumstances and the way they are treated is occasionally different.

A lot of people THINK they grew up with that identity ..but really they haven't.

No one is going to tell them to 'go home paddy' or put on a job interview review 'Too Irish'.

Whereas they DO tend to get hassle here sometimes because of the accent. So i am not sure they really do grow up with the same identity i did.

With respect to northern ireland ....london irish or british irish people tend to have a more nuanced and better approach.

They tend to realize the two tiered approach to policing there the deaths of innocent irish people is a human rights issue. But they also tend to realize the IRA don't care about human rights. But they realize the UDA don't either.

People who call themselves Irish American seem to think Irish unity is the answer to the issue achieved in any way and at any cost ..whereas Anglo Irish people tend to realize equality and human rights is.

Irish Americans often want to live in a world where they can celebrate scottish /Irish/ Anglo Saxon culture as ONE thing. March like orange men with scottish kilts playing an Irish tune.

But they don't understand that we often CANNOT march with these people ....and that we don't march in any way.

We couldn't go marching with scottish orange men singing irish tunes.

Anglo Irish people ..nearly all of the time get this.

Anglo Irish people also get that joking about being in the IRA as an irish person ..is deeply damaging to us ..on a public platform.

Whereas i have heard Irish Americans telling stories about how they convinced this person they were in the IRA etc. Without realizing Irish people have been locked up for this. I don't think an Anglo Irish person would ever do something like that. I think they would emphasize the IRA is not representative of Irish people and we shoudn't have to feel shame for what terrorists do any more than muslims should have to feel shame for islamic extremists. I mean the amount of times i have been told to condemn the IRA and apologize etc. Its ridiculous. Its like they think i was in the IRA! (this is mostly online).

Whereas i would never think to shame a british person as an individual for the UDA or the British army.

Saying all this if they felt they weren't Irish and british only ..im fine with that too.

ILoveYourVibes

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Its only when you spend some time abroad that I think you see how complex this is. It is weird to meet someone who tells you they are Irish too and when you ask where they're from they tell you they've never actually been to Ireland. But that is the way with some people.

I think its more like this.


If a white looking person tells a black looking person they are black ...because a great grandparent grandparent was.


I don't go around telling people I am Irish. I don't have to.

I mean if you have to TELL people particularly Irish people that you are Irish ..that might give you a hint ...that there is a difference ...not necessarily that you are not Irish at all ...but no one would ever assume an Irish person was American...even if they have one American parent. The perception of them in America is always going to be 'Irish'.

I have a friend whose dad is American ..but she was raised in Ireland ...every time she goes to the states ....people don't celebrate her Americaness ...they perceive her as fully Irish even AFTER she tells them about her dad.

I think when Anglo Irish people explain it ..they do it better ....but its usually closer ...i mean its their parents. You find out their irish background through a story of them visiting an Aunt here etc. It feels more natural.

But if its Americans ...its usually not always but usually more distant.

They have to tell you I'm Irish. they have no story or feeling for ireland. Its just that statement.

Plus ...its not always easy to be Irish in the UK. Partic right now.

Whereas it is very advantageous in the US. And I notice Irish identity is worn more lightly ..in that its disregarded when its NOT a good thing to be sometimes or doesn't fit in with the fantasy. For example many 'Irish Americans' voted for trump ....even after he supported brexit and said the border was going to be great.

I remember this...

John Lennon ....NEVER went on about being Irish ..for an advantage.

But straight after Bloody Sunday ...he wrote a song

He also wrote this.

If you had the luck of the Irish,
You'd be sorry and wish you were dead
You should have the luck of the Irish
And you'd wish you was English instead

That is someone who really really gets it.

He received a lot of flack for this.

He never praised the IRA but instead protested to try and pressure the British govt to remove troops from NI.

According to Carr and fellow NME writer Tony Tyler, Lennon's prestige in England nosedived as a result of the song's accusations of genocide

I am not saying that Anglo Irish people have to like PROVE their irishness ...with gestures of irish nationalism...

But i mean daniel hannan of UKIP ..his parents are actually Irish. Some of the things he has said about us are outright anti -Irish. And he moves in circles that i dare say we would not be welcomed in.

El Tarangu

flanna01 wrote: »

Young Johnny is born in Manchester to Irish parents. They bring him up with Irish values, traditions and a love for the home land..

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I have three sets of cousins that grew up in London, Bradford and Coventry. London cousins, may aswell be English, Bradford ones are more of Irish persuasion, my cousin shouts for Ireland in sport.

This is why I think that this problematic: as far as Irish people living in Britain being brought up watching GAA and learning Irish dancing or whatever - sure, why not.

But you need look no further than Bradford to see why it's important that immigrants should begin to integrate into their new home.

It seems harmless enough when it's céilís in Kilburn or Irish pubs in the Bronx, but in Belgium and France you routinely see riots after football matches - and not when Belgium or PSG or Anderlecht are playing, but when Morocco plays against Cote d'Ivoire, or Algeria plays against Tunisia.

ILoveYourVibes

SuperSean11 wrote: »

People can choose their gender, why not their nationality

Can i be russian! ??:p

BTW I support the sincerity of the trans gendered person and their gender. I don't think its a choice.

El Tarangu

The DayDream wrote: »

... the fact I'm American (even though I'm not) ...

The DayDream wrote: »

to turn right at the intersection

Sus

theteal

A topic very close to "home". I've a 4yr old who sounds like Peppa Pig with a few Dublinisms thrown in - the locals think she sounds Irish (she doesn't). Football to her involves kicking and catching, which she can do better than some adults I know (I can provide video evidence!). She would probably give you evils if you called her English but then again likes to throw a few "F" sounds in place of "Th" when she's trying to wreck her old man's head. As for what she is. . . .a bit of both I suppose (she's got the passports to prove it), not that it matters really.

ILoveYourVibes

theteal wrote: »

A topic very close to "home". I've a 4yr old who sounds like Peppa Pig with a few Dublinisms thrown in - the locals think she sounds Irish (she doesn't). Football to her involves kicking and catching, which she can do better than some adults I know (I can provide video evidence!). She would probably give you evils if you called her English but then again likes to throw a few "F" sounds in place of "Th" when she's trying to wreck her old man's head. As for what she is. . . .a bit of both I suppose (she's got the passports to prove it), not that it matters really.

Adorbs!:P

SharpshooterTom

I'm in this situation, born and raised in England till I was 14, then moved here to Northern Ireland (mum from Belfast, dad from Louth). Still have an English accent after living here for 20 years.

In England I was called Irish, here I'm called English. Typical 2nd generation Irish story I suppose.

I don't really feel either, nor have I a yearning desire to be either, so I allow people to call me what they want. I don't support Ireland or England at sports, don't care who wins, or when they play each other in Rugby.

Always thought about moving to USA/Canada/Australia one day, and I think if I ever naturalised I'd probably consider myself that as my primary nationality rather than English or Irish.

positron

It entirely depends on who you ask.

If OP grew up in Congo, India or China, he would be considered Irish there, and when he's back in Ireland, even if he speaking with Indian or Chinese accent people are hardly going to call him Indian or Chinese - he will be Irish or Irish-ish.

And if an Chinese/Indian kid born in Ireland and grows up speaking with Irish accent etc - vast majority of Irish will not consider that person Irish.

SharpshooterTom

positron wrote: »

And if an Chinese/Indian kid born in Ireland and grows up speaking with Irish accent etc - vast majority of Irish will not consider that person Irish.

I don't know if that's true, I think most people probably would, or at least Irish-Chinese or Irish-Indian.

I also think ethnonationalism can be quite problematic as well, especially in an increasingly multiracial/diverse society, it can lead to a lot of people feeling very confused about their identity.

Is a kid born and raised in Ireland to Nigerian parents more Irish than me? I would say so.

Hoboo

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes I do...well anglo Irish. You can be both british and irish.

You really cant.

You're either Irish or something else, and you most definitely can't be Anglo Irish, a term which in itself is nauseating. It screams "I'm British but I think it's cool to claim some Irishness"

No proud Irish person would want to be half anything else, and that's what make you Irish. It's not about wearing green or having the craic. It's pride. The fact you're proud to be Irish and thankful you're not something else. Like British.

Larbre34

The acid test for that is, some Brits would love to be viewed as both British and Irish.

However, no Irish person would want to be regarded as both Irish and British. If they do, then they're just British.

SharpshooterTom

Larbre34 wrote: »

The acid test for that is, some Brits would love to be viewed as both British and Irish.

However, no Irish person would want to be regarded as both Irish and British. If they do, then they're just British.

Plenty of people in the north do, certainly those from mixed backgrounds.

Brendan Rodgers described himself as a British coach after winning the FA Cup with Leicester on Saturday.

His Mother was a protestant though.