Teenagers with no value for life and no care for repercussions - **Read OP**

Get Real

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895108#Comment_120895108

COVID and events similar are achieved by cancelling rest days, fiddling numbers and moving guards from say, Kildare into Dublin for a few days.

It's a temporary and unsustainable model. You'd have the Garda presence like you mention by either 1) have them work every day and sleeping on beds in a station for decades or 2)doing it properly and recruiting enough to cover that on a long term basis.

I can't understand why when there's problems with for example the HSE, I wouldn't go and have a pop off a nurse about it. But people see it differently in this case.

Then the less you have per sq km the less you'll have them being seen. Take your generous figure of 3000 (I'd wager it's 2,000) and again presuming all are working at the same time.

That means none are in court. None are in the station doing paperwork. None are in the station with a prisoner. None are dropping someone with mental health issues to hospital, none are bringing children to a tusla care facility.

Presuming none of the above are occuring, and all are working at the same time, let's compare police visibility and coverage on a KM basis.

Paris urban police prefecture sq km: 762

Paris police prefecture sworn officers: 34,000

(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Police_Prefecture)

Dublin county Sq km: 922 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Dublin)

Dublin county sworn Gardai by your estimate: 3000

More sq km. Town obviously being the main problem but also issues with scrotes in Howth, Balbriggan, mini riots etc. Shootings in Finglas etc. Ongar in county Dublin.

Ten times less Gardai for an area larger than what the French police cover.

Then you might argue it should be on a population basis. Okay, that's fine. But then you've to accept you'll see less if they're a mere 10th of the size of a police force covering the same sq km area.

Also, our courts system doesn't help. Seeing as how the US tourist sparked the focus again, please see below similar scummy behaviour by youths that were prosecuted and received 0 jail time:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/suspended-sentence-for-teen-guilty-of-giving-garda-awful-hiding-1091652.html 16year old assaults Garda, suspended sentence

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/youth-17-who-viciously-mugged-14816890.amp 17 year old mugs someone in templebar, suspended sentence

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2022/07/26/boy-who-pushed-bike-at-girl-causing-her-to-fall-off-dart-platform-to-avoid-detention/ youth involved in that viral/infamous Dart attack, no jail time.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/teenager-avoids-jail-for-role-in-tying-up-and-scalding-woman-with-boiling-water-1429901.html youth involved in throwing boiling water over a woman, no jail time.

Sorry for the detailed post. But an old roommate of mine, I saw how he was never home. How he was in court on rest days. You might say "plenty in for COVID". For him that's a cancelled date with the gf or coming in after a funeral. I witnessed him calling off an entire holiday once because showing up was mandatory. And I felt offended at the govt and his employer on his behalf. I can only imagine how he felt.

You're playing into the politicians hands so easily. No, let's not look at the causes of the symptoms. Let's criticise the people trying to deal with the symptoms and not look into empty words, the courts, prison funding, political decisions and as it always comes down to, money.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896040#Comment_120896040

🤣

Says it all

Get Real

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896459#Comment_120896459

Also to follow up on the above, even today I had to laugh.

Does he not see the absolute irony of a Government TD saying he wouldn't feel safe walking around certain parts of Dublin

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/minister-admits-he-wouldnt-walk-in-parts-of-dublin-at-night-due-to-anti-social-behaviour/a1815990399.html

and on the same day a headline about a teenager with previous convictions for assault, who kicked an adults head in, leaving him with serious head injuries (hmmm, sound familiar to what happened this week?) was prosecuted by Gardaí and......received 0 jail time.

https://twitter.com/courtsnewsIRL/status/1683516355104985088

the man may not be Minister for Justice. But Christ, he's a Government TD. Absolute unbelievable. Stop giving words to the papers and do something about it so, it's happening under you and your fellow colleagues' watch.

Strumms

Paris, you don’t see Police patrol in one’s or twos like here in urban areas. Cars even generally have four cops. Vans 6-8….. you see more vans than cars….

Killinator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896576#Comment_120896576

And when the public order unit are out in the vans they present in soft caps and a stab vest, no riot gear because that would be too intimidating.

I did public order training and the only time I've worn the riot gear (helmet and pads) was during training. Government and top brass are too afraid of the optics of full on riot police being deployed despite in many cases it is exactly what is needed

HeidiHeidi

I had to laugh at the "48 Gardai from Templemore to boost numbers in the city centre" line, like it was the answer to all our prayers.

Divide those into 4 inner city stations, and 4 units (soon to be 5), and you'll be lucky to see 3 or 4 actual persons out on the street at any one time .

The manipulation of numbers drives me nuts.

Killinator

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896612#Comment_120896612

Yes, ideal!

What will solve the issue of scrotes and feral gangs with no respect for authority.....

Green recruits fresh out of Templemore with no experience 🫣

Northernlily

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896612#Comment_120896612

Where are them lads being paid peanuts going to live another problem. Wouldn't surprise me if they jacked it after a few months.

The force needs to be paid properly. I'd happily see my tax money go to uplifting those policing Dublin if it's getting results and creating a safer environment for me and my loved ones.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896459#Comment_120896459

Paris has a population of 11m. Dublin is 1.2 m. There isn’t much of a difference per head of population.

Anyway, police numbers won’t make much difference unless there is also a new jail.

hamburgham

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120842322#Comment_120842322

Why do recruits have to be under 35?

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896787#Comment_120896787

Paris city is only 2.2 million. The metro population is about 12 million.

Dublin is now 1.5 million in the county, metro about 2.2 million.

So Dublin metro area is only about 5 times smaller than Paris metro area.

The Nal

SECURITY ALERT – U.S. EMBASSY DUBLIN IRELAND

https://ie.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-dublin-ireland/

Everything is fine

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897433#Comment_120897433

Well quite laughable about the US Embassy issuing safety advice given the gun crime and obesity levels in America. They don't strike me as a country that is bothered about safety and health.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896459#Comment_120896459

the number of police in France is high, but per population is like 400 per 100k vs 300 per 100k

there are probably 15 mil people in Paris metro, 10 times what dublin metro is easily

we are on par or higher than the UK and many other countries

Part of the issue is the 2 police forces, you have national and regional police, the regional ones do the day to day that the gards do

Ireland is a low crime country, there is little for them to be doing and they sure drag that work out

The HSE is similar to the Garda, some amount of waste in there, all the money in the world thrown at it, a black hole

are they all bad of course not

are they managed really badly, hell yes

are there too many wasters absolutely

RetroEncabulator

That warning also doesn’t address the issue. It’s random assaults. They don’t seem to get that assaults can happen often without cash or valuable motivation. They just attack people for the sake of attacking people or in some cases to video it for social media.

Also it’s not an issue at airports ffs.

whomitconcerns

We need the street police like they have in France, Poland, Romania, etc. My experience of them was in Romania. If you f**k about in the city centre the gendames will take you and give you a hiding. The police will arrest you if they show.

But there are a lot of gendames very visible in the city centre. You can see their vans parked in busy areas, with 4/5 guys in each.

You don't f*** about in Bucharest city centre. You will find very little danger on the streets

RetroEncabulator

To be quite honest the French police are totally ineffective. I’ve lived there. They’ve let some areas go to absolute hell and they do no community policing whatsoever. You won’t find them most of the time. If you need them they’re not there.

When there’s a riot (which is frequent) they go in like a bunch of rioters themselves and make matters a thousand times worse smashing heads, spraying tear gas and ratcheting up the confrontation.

They’re also constantly getting into ludicrous police brutality situations that spark social unrest.

French sentencing is also every bit as weak as ours for youth offenders. Revolving door problems. There are areas of cities with very significant issues with antisocial behaviour, assaults, vandalism, a huge amount of targeted and random harassement etc

I would absolutely not take the French system as a model.

whomitconcerns

"Defence of public order and peace of the fundamental rights and freedoms" is their core duty...enough said...

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895030#Comment_120895030

No it isn't

There's a gang of scummers that hang out around the Luas stop at Stephens green. They are on the side of the road between Stop itself and the park. usually obscured from view by the ticket machine.

It's everywhere.

There are not enough Garda and not enough prisons.

Mark my words, the age of the vigilante is coming.

Edit: US Embassy has this morning issued a security alert for it citizens travelling in Dublin.

Edit 2: Can we not just go back to the days where if you were being a little b*llix the Garda bet the head off ya with a Golden pages in a cell? Like I'd be ok going back to that.

RetroEncabulator

The biggest issue here is lack of sentencing and I think that’s coming from an understandable reaction to the institutional abuse scandals of the past.

Ireland’s history is one of having had one of the most draconian, abusive, and frankly shamefully grim youth justice systems imaginable. It did horrendous damage and you can clearly see the state and cultural desire not to ever have anything remotely like that ever again.

However, it seems like we dismantled the youth justice and youth offender system without replacing it with something modern, safe, fair and socially beneficial. Instead we are basically either ignoring criminal behaviour or mollycoddling very violent offenders.

Beefcake82

I would be of the opinion that between the ages of 7-15 (group 1) they go to a state run non denominational boarding school, no internet access, no tvs, no xbox/playstations, no creature comforts of any kind. They spend time studying, learning practical skills such as cooking, cleaning, sewing, how to change bulbs (yes there are those that dont know how to do this), change fuses, etc. discipline. Stuff that will stand to them throughout life. Then if they are required by sentence to stay longer in state run care they move to the next group.

Ages 16+ (group 2) they go to compulsory military, civil service, further education, given a choice (subject to place availability) to learn more advanced skills, welding, mechanic, gardening (mowers, strimmers etc), discipline. plumbing, electrical, carpentry, further education (accounting, nursing etc) and more. These skills will provide them the knowledge they need to be successful in life and to be a benefit to society.

A lot of them going to prison is not going to be productive on its own, yes it keeps them off the streets however if not driven to new skills they will in many cases revert to criminal behavior, at least forcing them down certain paths will be more of a benefit for society.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897778#Comment_120897778

I would not be teaching a criminal military tactics and how to handle a fire arm. #Wagnar

I do agree with some of the stuff you mentioned, but the big one is ethics. They need to learn ethics. none of the other stuff you have mentioned will matter unless they understand ethics of our society

The Nal

We're not addressing the main problem, which is none of these kids should be brought up tiny flats in town.

RetroEncabulator

Taking kids out of the educational system to teach them obsolete skills like changing fuses and (has anyone actually done that since the 70s?) sewing etc etc and so on makes no sense.

The industrial schools churned out people who’d been denied access to normal education and they floundered in society as broken people. You need to give kids a new path with some optimism and opportunity to take them out of these situations.

They should be put into some kind of facility that gets them to progress through the actual school curriculum, gain the skills they should have at that age : reading, numeracy, etc etc etc.

Provide serious psychological, psychiatric and other services that work towards dealing with their violent behaviour.

Yes it’s expensive but so is not doing it. How much does this behaviour costs cities and towns in lost trade? How much does it cost in terms of injuries, disruption, policing etc etc

Put them into a long term liaison system when they are eventually released as they’ve clearly got useless parents.

It’s very likely you’d also need to deal with drugs addiction issues.

You’d also need to do a lot more to crack down on gangs.

Using the already very under resourced military as a punishment system for youth offenders is both pointless and is an insult to the people who make careers in the defence forces.

Why don’t you take Anto and Deco who’ve been done for 78 assaults on as interns your company ?! That’s basically what’s being asked of the military.

We need to break cycles of this problem and we aren’t even beginning to achieve that.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897778#Comment_120897778

Yeah, they tried something very like that before.

They called them industrial schools. Artane, etc.

Didn't work out so well.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896741#Comment_120896741

Are wages in AGS a problem?

Their average earnings are the highest in the public service.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897838#Comment_120897838

this is not the main problem

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898334#Comment_120898334

I doubt that base salary is that high on average, nearly 70k, but overtime etc

thegame983

Back in the day if you were brought back to a garda station for acting the maggot you would quite often get a beating from the guards.

I assume that doesn't happen anymore. Bring that back.

Banzai600

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897838#Comment_120897838

i cannot belive you just said that, jasus !!!

i know ppl from areas of so called "working class" , many big families in 2 up 2 downs, and theyve done well for themselves. what crusade are you on, ffs.