Dublin Bay South By-Election

Larbre34

This conversation reminds me that we should have a national legislature that does not draw its members by geographical area and is not beholden to the parish pump of that area either. I would just as soon have the best people for the job concerned only with running the Country as a whole.

I realise I'm being more than a bit naive.

expectationlost

Larbre34 wrote: »

This conversation reminds me that we should have a national legislature that does not draw its members by geographical area and is not beholden to the parish pump of that area either. I would just as soon have the best people for the job concerned only with running the Country as a whole.

I realise I'm being more than a bit naive.

having a politician living or having some strong connection (working or having lived there for a significant period of time) to the are they represent is a perfectly reasonable expectation and is not parish pump, parish pump goes beyond that to ignoring national issues in favour of servicing small local cliques.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

Bacik *lives* in DBS - the parachute claims were about her two previous Dail elections which were not DBS.

Not really.

"Maybe it'll be 5th time lucky being parachuted into a 5th different constituency.... but I'd just personally rather see someone a bit more electable, with a bit less baggage, on the Labour ticket."

AndrewJRenko

Larbre34 wrote: »

This conversation reminds me that we should have a national legislature that does not draw its members by geographical area and is not beholden to the parish pump of that area either. I would just as soon have the best people for the job concerned only with running the Country as a whole.

I realise I'm being more than a bit naive.

Would the list system used around Europe address this?

Larbre34

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would the list system used around Europe address this?

I'd be all for that, 100%.

But I don't underestimate how much of a difficult sell it would be both to the people and the Parties. Turkey's voting for Christmas is a rare sight and folk particularly in rural constituencies equate local representation with TDs. This wil not easily change.

I would go the whole hog and beef up local Government to maybe 7 or 8 Regional Authorities with huge autonomy for investment and development, including full time assembly members and so on. This would leave a list system Dáil to focus on national competencies.

For anyone interested, the Scottish Parliament hybrid system is worth learning about.

El Tarangu

expectationlost wrote: »

having politician living or having some strong connection to the are they represent is a perfectly reasonable expectation

But why? Sure if someone is running on a party ticket, it's the same in Clontarf as it is in Clonakilty.

timmyntc

El Tarangu wrote: »

But why? Sure if someone is running on a party ticket, it's the same in Clontarf as it is in Clonakilty.

They are your local representative - so it's seen to be better if they actually are local - that way they have a vested interest in representing your constituency at the national level, rather than just doing it for a job or looking for a payout.

L1011

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would the list system used around Europe address this?

List system removes the ability to vote out a specific party rep while voting for that party - as done by FG voters selecting Madigan over Shatter for instance.

We've had 9 seat constituencies before, probably about the right size!

Capt'n Midnight

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would the list system used around Europe address this?

But then the party faithful get first dibs regardless of competence. That's how Nigel Farage gets elected. List system in a 10 seater. Less popular than a dolphin in a single seater running for a party that couldn't organise a pissup in a gin distillery.


In the UK most seats are safe seats , it's not good for democracy IMHO as the are only answerable to the party.
MPs are not chosen by 'the people' - they are chosen by their local constituency parties: thirty-five men in grubby raincoats or thirty-five women in silly hats.
- Yes Minister

In Ireland it would have been smoke filled rooms.

Here and in the UK people can serve in the upper house without having to be elected so that backup already exists.

Larbre34

El Tarangu wrote: »

But why? Sure if someone is running on a party ticket, it's the same in Clontarf as it is in Clonakilty.

Evidently, it absolutely is not.

Urban v rural, liberal v conservative, wealthy v deprived. Within the larger parties all of these arguments take place to some extent and end up informing policy, sometimes compromised to the point of useless.

I'm not saying thats not democratic, but a Jim O'Callaghan is not the same as a Marc McSharry, a Varadkar not the same as a Michael Ring. In fact you often hear tales of TDs working cross party more effectively than within their own, due to both boundary scraps and policy differences.

blackwhite

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Would the list system used around Europe address this?

The only way it would really work would be if greater powers were devolved to local government; possibly involving the amalgamation of county/city councils into more regional local governments also (I can already imagine the parochial bollockology that would kick up around that :pac:)

Our central Government has a significant amount of involvement in local services/issues and that means that TDs can, and do, have a lot of scope to influence local matters that really should fall under the scope of a proper local government.

Until we get away from TDs having that sort of local role, people are always going to want to have a "local" TD in the Dáil.

El Tarangu

timmyntc wrote: »

They are your local representative - so it's seen to be better if they actually are local - that way they have a vested interest in representing your constituency at the national level, rather than just doing it for a job or looking for a payout.

This is 'parish pump' by any other name.

I don't want to drag the thread any further off-topic, but the fact that intelligent, reasonable people in this thread were discussing seriously the impact of being from Clonskeagh Vs Milltown would have on the leader of government party's re-election chances is borne from the ultra-parochial political culture we have in Ireland.

The result being that deputies spend time on going to funerals and fixing potholes, etc. that should instead be spent on things like the housing crisis, climate change, economic development, etc.

timmyntc

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is 'parish pump' by any other name.

I don't want to drag the thread any further off-topic, but the fact that intelligent, reasonable people in this thread were discussing seriously the impact of being from Clonskeagh Vs Milltown would have on the leader of government party's re-election chances is borne from the ultra-parochial political culture we have in Ireland.

The result being that deputies spend time on going to funerals and fixing potholes, etc. that should instead be spent on things like the housing crisis, climate change, economic development, etc.

All politics is local.
Would you rather vote for an MEP from France who is just running in Ireland, or would you vote for an Irish person who lives in the constituency?

Larbre34

timmyntc wrote: »

All politics is local.
Would you rather vote for an MEP from France who is just running in Ireland, or would you vote for an Irish person who lives in the constituency?

I'd vote for the better candidate. I elect locals to County Council to deal with local issues.

One of Germany's highest profile and most influential MEPs is Scotsman David McAllister.

expectationlost

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'd vote for the better candidate. I elect locals to County Council to deal with local issues.

One of Germany's highest profile and most influential MEPs is Scotsman David McAllister.

who was born and lives in Berlin

expectationlost

El Tarangu wrote: »

This is 'parish pump' by any other name.

I don't want to drag the thread any further off-topic, but the fact that intelligent, reasonable people in this thread were discussing seriously the impact of being from Clonskeagh Vs Milltown would have on the leader of government party's re-election chances is borne from the ultra-parochial political culture we have in Ireland.

The result being that deputies spend time on going to funerals and fixing potholes, etc. that should instead be spent on things like the housing crisis, climate change, economic development, etc.

you are trying so overly hard to be against "parish pump politics" that you can't recognise the politicians should be connected to people, and one of those ways is by living or working etc in the same place as the people you represent. (you could argue for large constituencies,fewer TDs if you wish before moving to a list system)



Urban TDs can recognise issues in their local area that other urban TDs also face and work with them to deal with those issues at national level if thats where the problem can be addressed ( or they can pass it onto councillors to deal with a council level). They can also work with other TDs or their party to deal with national issues. Its not mutually exclusive as you try to paint it.

Jizique

expectationlost wrote: »

who was born and lives in Berlin

Yes, he was even minister president of Lower Saxony for a few years

gmisk

https://twitter.com/GeogheganCllr/status/1397136306417934339?s=19

Geoghegan rightfully getting annihilated over this tweet

RandomViewer

gmisk wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GeogheganCllr/status/1397136306417934339?s=19

Geoghegan rightfully getting annihilated over this tweet

Do you think he has enough icons after his Name?

Larbre34

I don't know who is advising Geoghegan but they need to be fired to salvage anything.

gmisk

Larbre34 wrote: »

I don't know who is advising Geoghegan but they need to be fired to salvage anything.

I think Simon Harris is leading his campaign....it's not as if he has anything else to do....

L1011

Conroy is having to defend her comments over maternity leave

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dublin-bay-south-candidate-deirdre-conroy-denies-questioning-need-for-maternity-leave-jmx93thn7

coylemj

gmisk wrote: »

Geoghegan rightfully getting annihilated over this tweet

Might have been a response by him to attempts on Twittter to label him as 'pro life'.

Because his earlier association with Lucinda and Renua makes him an easy target for political smears. Which are flying all over the place on Twitter.

And he's being used as a proxy target for anti-Leo tweets. No prizes for guessing who is behind that campaign.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

Conroy is having to defend her comments over maternity leave

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dublin-bay-south-candidate-deirdre-conroy-denies-questioning-need-for-maternity-leave-jmx93thn7

Conroy has more than a few skeletons in the cupboard that she'll find herself defending over the campaign.

coylemj wrote: »

Might have been a response by him to attempts on Twittter to label him as 'pro life'.

Because his earlier association with Lucinda and Renua makes him an easy target for political smears. Which are flying all over the place on Twitter.

And he's being used as a proxy target for anti-Leo tweets. No prizes for guessing who is behind that campaign.

Just about everybody, except his own FG faction? He's managed to alienate just about everybody - cyclists and sustainable travel - repeal - half of FG.

Larbre34

He's still a clear favourite to top the poll. Most of whats described there will actually gain him as many votes in DBS as lose them. He's probably quite transfer toxic though so he'll be up against it late in the count.

Blut2

The more that comes out about him the more he seems quite a weak candidate. Especially compared to Kate O'Connell. The FG brand name is probably strong enough in DBS to get him across though.

If Hazel Chu hadn't burnt her bridges with her Seanad debacle/not being a team player in general for the Greens, and she was running with full party support, she probably would have had a real chance at sneaking the seat on late count transfers against him.

Breezer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Just about everybody, except his own FG faction? He's managed to alienate just about everybody - cyclists and sustainable travel - repeal - half of FG.

Why did he say anything about this issue? Pro-Repeal people were always going to call him out on it. Anti-Repeal people will view it as spineless and not owning his own opinions. Credit to Lucinda, she stood by her beliefs. As does Kate O’Connell.

What did he say about cycling and sustainable travel?

AndrewJRenko

Breezer wrote: »

What did he say about cycling and sustainable travel?

He said sustainable travel is great and really important, a few weeks after he voted against trialling the Sandymount cycle route.

Sam Russell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

He said sustainable travel is great and really important, a few weeks after he voted against trialling the Sandymount cycle route.

That Sandymount Cycle Way is a major concern of the locals around Sandymount and Ballsbridge. It will sway many voters around the east side of the constituency - it is the home owners and residents in the leafy areas that would be FG voters who are apoplectic over this.

Sustainable travel, but not for us just yet. A bit like Eamonn Ryan being against the Green Line Metrolink extension but in favour of public transport and Metrolink - but not against his voters wishes.

AndrewJRenko

Sam Russell wrote: »

That Sandymount Cycle Way is a major concern of the locals around Sandymount and Ballsbridge. It will sway many voters around the east side of the constituency - it is the home owners and residents in the leafy areas that would be FG voters who are apoplectic over this.

Sustainable travel, but not for us just yet. A bit like Eamonn Ryan being against the Green Line Metrolink extension but in favour of public transport and Metrolink - but not against his voters wishes.

I wouldn't go making huge assumptions about who supports what on the ground.. There's lots of locals who would be very happy to have safe cycle routes for themselves and their families. The sky hasn't fallen in for people who live on the DLR coastal mobility route.

The issue for yer man is yet another front of his hypocrisy being exposed.