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Did you know that Income tax is a 'temporary measure?'

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    #62
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    im in favour of a 20% flat tax myself including on corporations

    never going to happen though , flat taxes make politicians looks redundant

    been down, and failed!


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    #63
    Former Former Former
    Registered Users Posts: 5,500 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    biko wrote: »
    There are plenty countries with zero income tax.
    Many small island havens, but also Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Somalia and Western Sahara.

    So, all we need to do is either a) strike oil in copious amounts or b) let the country descend into civil war.

    I like option b) - seems a small price to pay for an extra 14% in the average wage.


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    #64
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    been down, and failed!

    where has it been done ?


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    #65
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    im in favour of a 20% flat tax myself including on corporations

    never going to happen though , flat taxes make politicians looks redundant

    Yes, can you imagine a world without politicians.

    ywOpPB7.gif


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    #66
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    been down, and failed!

    Lots of countries have a flat tax rate, when was it done and failed?

    As we have seen during covid with huge numbers of people unemployed the tax hasn't massively decreased. Would suggest a lot of people are not contributing in the first place, a flat tax rate would mean everyone gives a little


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    #67
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mike Murdock wrote: »
    Yes, can you imagine a world without politicians.

    ywOpPB7.gif

    not what i meant , i meant under a flat tax system , there are less election promises available to politicians


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    #68
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Former Former Former wrote: »
    So, all we need to do is either a) strike oil in copious amounts or b) let the country descend into civil war.

    I like option b) - seems a small price to pay for an extra 14% in the average wage.

    Are we not far off Option B already?


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    #69
    Mike Murdock
    Registered Users Posts: 895 ✭✭✭Mike Murdock


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    not what i meant , i meant under a flat tax system , there are less election promises available to politicians

    Less promises for them not to keep.


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    #70
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    where has it been done ?
    sebdavis wrote: »
    Lots of countries have a flat tax rate, when was it done and failed?

    As we have seen during covid with huge numbers of people unemployed the tax hasn't massively decreased. Would suggest a lot of people are not contributing in the first place, a flat tax rate would mean everyone gives a little

    i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure


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    #71
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    MayoSalmon wrote: »
    Income taxation is pure theft.

    What do you want to happen, we go back to Dickensian slums with a dog eat dog world with zero services provided by government?

    Annoying when you see the waste in the system but what alternative to you propose?


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The online libertarian thing is well dead by now. Lads who watched a video about Hayek on YouTube and got to page 12 of some Ayn Rand borefest suddenly thought they had all the answers. Very 2012.

    They’ve moved on to cryptocurrency and hating feminists these days.

    You’d think the IT companies banning the alt right would have ended the idea that everything is hunky dory in a libertarian state.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sebdavis wrote: »
    Are we not far off Option B already?

    We are definitely nowhere near a civil war. Not in the existing ROI.


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    #74
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure

    im not in favour of tax loop holes and dont see why government cant clamp down , there will always be the super rich who leave for tax havens

    your example sounds like lack of government enforcement of the idea ?


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    #75
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Mimon wrote: »
    What do you want to happen, we go back to Dickensian slums with a dog eat dog world with zero services provided by government?

    Annoying when you see the waste in the system but what alternative to you propose?

    there are options in between kids up chimneys and saudi arabia i assure you

    its irritating how whenever any of us criticise public expenditure waste by government, we are told to sit down and keep milking by those on the left and that we want no state , im not entirely sure what a libertarian is exactly but i dont think i am one


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    #76
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure

    Do we not have the same accusation in Ireland that the wealthier people are paying little/no tax?
    So what is the difference
    Based on what I have found the Eastern European countries have no problems with a flat tax rate, they all seem to have different setup based on what each country wants.


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    #77
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    im not in favour of tax loop holes and dont see why government cant clamp down , there will always be the super rich who leave for tax havens

    your example sounds like lack of government enforcement of the idea ?

    again, its been tried, and it failed, all countries are struggling with these wealthier elements, effectively interfering with the political and democratic process, so the status quo remains so


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    #78
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    fvp4 wrote: »
    We are definitely nowhere near a civil war. Not in the existing ROI.

    But is the whole focus now to bring in the North? based on recent activity in the North I would suggest we are closer than ever to a civil war in Ireland. Well since the last one anyway......


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    #79
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    sebdavis wrote: »
    Do we not have the same accusation in Ireland that the wealthier people are paying little/no tax?
    So what is the difference
    Based on what I have found the Eastern European countries have no problems with a flat tax rate, they all seem to have different setup based on what each country wants.

    we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

    i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter


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    #80
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    again, its been tried, and it failed, all countries are struggling with these wealthier elements, effectively interfering with the political and democratic process, so the status quo remains so

    First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

    So what is the difference?

    Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster


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    #81
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

    i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter

    What are your "sources"? thats all we are asking for


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    #82
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,645 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    sebdavis wrote: »
    I don’t have a problem with tax, if I pay tax then I get access to hospital, roads etc

    I do have a problem with social welfare and all that is dragged along with it, giving people the ability to be a career unemployed is and never was a good system.

    Year on year providing a pay raise while people who actually work are struggling is what has seriously gone wrong

    Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

    I think you may find very quickly if a countries birth rate declines sharply . When your arse is too old to work the economy and you specifically will need the incoming children to grow up and work.

    There's alot of really silly ignorance surrounding around how important a birth rate is to the economy and old people (you) when you are collecting your pension.


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    #83
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    sebdavis wrote: »
    First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

    So what is the difference?

    Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster

    A flat tax would be ideal, a low 20% across the board for everyone. But ofcourse it would be politically unpopular because it would mean swathes of middle and upper income people actually get ti keep a decent portion of what they earn for once


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    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    there are options in between kids up chimneys and saudi arabia i assure you

    its irritating how whenever any of us criticise public expenditure waste by government, we are told to sit down and keep milking by those on the left and that we want no state , im not entirely sure what a libertarian is exactly but i dont think i am one

    Why are you in a thread about all income tax being theft then?


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    #85
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

    i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter
    sebdavis wrote: »
    First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

    So what is the difference?

    Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster

    this is a much bigger problem, than just wealthy individuals!

    sure thing, American economist michael hudson has done some work on this, i think he was involved in helping those governments trying to fix the mess, after the fact

    https://michael-hudson.com/


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    #86
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sebdavis wrote: »
    But is the whole focus now to bring in the North? based on recent activity in the North I would suggest we are closer than ever to a civil war in Ireland. Well since the last one anyway......

    That’s a pie in the sky dream. Nothing to do with this thread either.


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    #87
    JimmyVik
    Registered Users Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I have no problem paying income at all. Its the sheer amount of tax that I pay that annoys me.


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    #88
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,809 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    JimmyVik wrote: »
    I have no problem paying income at all. Its the sheer amount of tax that I pay that annoys me.

    ....again, this is a as a result of what is called the neoliberal era, taxation has moved from wealth towards you...........


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    #89
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    A flat tax would be ideal, a low 20% across the board for everyone. But ofcourse it would be politically unpopular because it would mean swathes of middle and upper income people actually get ti keep a decent portion of what they earn for once

    That's is the problem. A lot easier to tax these people to their knees, crippling them with debt.


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    #90
    sebdavis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 891 ✭✭✭sebdavis


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    this is a much bigger problem, than just wealthy individuals!

    sure thing, American economist michael hudson has done some work on this, i think he was involved in helping those governments trying to fix the mess, after the fact

    https://michael-hudson.com/

    So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

    Another way to reduce the high tax on middle earners is to tax the top earners (100k+) more.


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