Did you know that Income tax is a 'temporary measure?'

Wanderer78

Glaceon wrote: »

National Party I assume?

oh those ar$eholes!

biko

There are plenty countries with zero income tax.
Many small island havens, but also Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Somalia and Western Sahara.

paw patrol

magicbastarder wrote: »

ignoring your ludicrous parodying of the NGO sector, a lot of that sector exists precisely because of the state *not* providing services they should provide. so we could onboard their tasks, but then it'd solidify the taxpayer footing the bill.
and this is as it should be.

it was a good parody though. :pac:

Perhaps the state needs to run essential services and non essential should rely on people donating to causes they want too. The state should stop farming essential work to for profits.

Anyway much of that NGO work isn't essential , we all know it.

Professor Moriarty

biko wrote: »

There are plenty countries with zero income tax.
Many small island havens, but also Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Somalia and Western Sahara.

I wouldn't want to live in any of those four countries. Rather take my chances on Fastnet.

titan18

3DataModem wrote: »

All taxation is theft, but it is theft in service of the social contract.

We want roads, hospitals, schools, and social welfare for the less fortunate, medicine for the sick and dying, and wheelchairs for the disabled. We want to ensure that what property we have is secure (police/military), and that we have recourse when someone does us wrong (courts), and we want to make sure that people beyond their working age can have their basic living needs met (pensions).

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

If you are interested in where Irish tax goes, take a look: https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1721503/original/?width=630&version=1721503

That link is one section of our tax only, not all of it.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/ is more accurate, and you'll notice a fair share of crap there that you're wondering where the value for money is when you go into it.

sebdavis

osarusan wrote: »

The idea that a country like Ireland would rely on voluntary contributions from its residents to fund the state's services and infrastructure is madness. Beyond even libertarian delusion.

Just look at what happened to Irish Water.

just look at the amount of people who don't bother paying their own mortgate.

Just look at the amount of people who won't pay for their own bins.

People who won't even pay for themselves, never mind voluntarily contributing to pay for others.

People in Ireland have no problem paying millions over the course of their life on alcohol, cigs etc,. Ask them to pay for a bit of water and they lose the plot.

Imagine trying to get a few people to pay for the roads, they would drive over the fields instead. Just look at cyclist who use the road yet demand zero tax. Excellent example of who would actually pay for anything

Wanderer78

titan18 wrote: »

That link is one section of our tax only, not all of it.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/ is more accurate, and you'll notice a fair share of crap there that you're wondering where the value for money is when you go into it.

most peoples income goes towards their property needs, the fire sectors(finance, insurance, and real estate), are taking most peoples hard earned money

sebdavis wrote: »

People in Ireland have no problem paying millions over the course of their life on alcohol, cigs etc,. Ask them to pay for a bit of water and they lose the plot.

Imagine trying to get a few people to pay for the roads, they would drive over the fields instead. Just look at cyclist who use the road yet demand zero tax. Excellent example of who would actually pay for anything

you ll actually find most cyclists also pay road tax

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

I know you are a garda. So for a garda robbery/theft make have specific meanings and not mean the same.
i'm a mere IT functionary - I see them as interchangeable perhaps out of ignorance.

if I missed the point, can you elaborate.

You were the one defining an act.

magicbastarder

ah here, that other thread is now becoming contagious...

Mad_maxx

im in favour of a 20% flat tax myself including on corporations

never going to happen though , flat taxes make politicians looks redundant

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im in favour of a 20% flat tax myself including on corporations

never going to happen though , flat taxes make politicians looks redundant

been down, and failed!

Former Former Former

biko wrote: »

There are plenty countries with zero income tax.
Many small island havens, but also Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Somalia and Western Sahara.

So, all we need to do is either a) strike oil in copious amounts or b) let the country descend into civil war.

I like option b) - seems a small price to pay for an extra 14% in the average wage.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

been down, and failed!

where has it been done ?

Mike Murdock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im in favour of a 20% flat tax myself including on corporations

never going to happen though , flat taxes make politicians looks redundant

Yes, can you imagine a world without politicians.

sebdavis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

been down, and failed!

Lots of countries have a flat tax rate, when was it done and failed?

As we have seen during covid with huge numbers of people unemployed the tax hasn't massively decreased. Would suggest a lot of people are not contributing in the first place, a flat tax rate would mean everyone gives a little

Mad_maxx

Mike Murdock wrote: »

Yes, can you imagine a world without politicians.

not what i meant , i meant under a flat tax system , there are less election promises available to politicians

sebdavis

Former Former Former wrote: »

So, all we need to do is either a) strike oil in copious amounts or b) let the country descend into civil war.

I like option b) - seems a small price to pay for an extra 14% in the average wage.

Are we not far off Option B already?

Mike Murdock

Mad_maxx wrote: »

not what i meant , i meant under a flat tax system , there are less election promises available to politicians

Less promises for them not to keep.

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

where has it been done ?

sebdavis wrote: »

Lots of countries have a flat tax rate, when was it done and failed?

As we have seen during covid with huge numbers of people unemployed the tax hasn't massively decreased. Would suggest a lot of people are not contributing in the first place, a flat tax rate would mean everyone gives a little

i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure

Mimon

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Income taxation is pure theft.

What do you want to happen, we go back to Dickensian slums with a dog eat dog world with zero services provided by government?

Annoying when you see the waste in the system but what alternative to you propose?

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The online libertarian thing is well dead by now. Lads who watched a video about Hayek on YouTube and got to page 12 of some Ayn Rand borefest suddenly thought they had all the answers. Very 2012.

They’ve moved on to cryptocurrency and hating feminists these days.

You’d think the IT companies banning the alt right would have ended the idea that everything is hunky dory in a libertarian state.

sebdavis

sebdavis wrote: »

Are we not far off Option B already?

We are definitely nowhere near a civil war. Not in the existing ROI.

Mad_maxx

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure

im not in favour of tax loop holes and dont see why government cant clamp down , there will always be the super rich who leave for tax havens

your example sounds like lack of government enforcement of the idea ?

Mad_maxx

Mimon wrote: »

What do you want to happen, we go back to Dickensian slums with a dog eat dog world with zero services provided by government?

Annoying when you see the waste in the system but what alternative to you propose?

there are options in between kids up chimneys and saudi arabia i assure you

its irritating how whenever any of us criticise public expenditure waste by government, we are told to sit down and keep milking by those on the left and that we want no state , im not entirely sure what a libertarian is exactly but i dont think i am one

sebdavis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i believe some eastern European countries have tried it, it resulted in the more wealthier elements in society paying little or no tax, as they could afford to engage in tax avoidance methods, while most obviously couldnt, all leading to significantly lower economic activities, due to a reduced money supply, and ultimately lower velocity of the money supply, and of course, further deteriorating public services and infrastructure

Do we not have the same accusation in Ireland that the wealthier people are paying little/no tax?
So what is the difference
Based on what I have found the Eastern European countries have no problems with a flat tax rate, they all seem to have different setup based on what each country wants.

Wanderer78

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im not in favour of tax loop holes and dont see why government cant clamp down , there will always be the super rich who leave for tax havens

your example sounds like lack of government enforcement of the idea ?

again, its been tried, and it failed, all countries are struggling with these wealthier elements, effectively interfering with the political and democratic process, so the status quo remains so

sebdavis

fvp4 wrote: »

We are definitely nowhere near a civil war. Not in the existing ROI.

But is the whole focus now to bring in the North? based on recent activity in the North I would suggest we are closer than ever to a civil war in Ireland. Well since the last one anyway......

Wanderer78

sebdavis wrote: »

Do we not have the same accusation in Ireland that the wealthier people are paying little/no tax?
So what is the difference
Based on what I have found the Eastern European countries have no problems with a flat tax rate, they all seem to have different setup based on what each country wants.

we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter

sebdavis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, its been tried, and it failed, all countries are struggling with these wealthier elements, effectively interfering with the political and democratic process, so the status quo remains so

First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

So what is the difference?

Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster

sebdavis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter

What are your "sources"? thats all we are asking for

listermint

sebdavis wrote: »

I don’t have a problem with tax, if I pay tax then I get access to hospital, roads etc

I do have a problem with social welfare and all that is dragged along with it, giving people the ability to be a career unemployed is and never was a good system.

Year on year providing a pay raise while people who actually work are struggling is what has seriously gone wrong

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

I think you may find very quickly if a countries birth rate declines sharply . When your arse is too old to work the economy and you specifically will need the incoming children to grow up and work.

There's alot of really silly ignorance surrounding around how important a birth rate is to the economy and old people (you) when you are collecting your pension.

Eric Cartman

sebdavis wrote: »

First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

So what is the difference?

Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster

A flat tax would be ideal, a low 20% across the board for everyone. But ofcourse it would be politically unpopular because it would mean swathes of middle and upper income people actually get ti keep a decent portion of what they earn for once

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

there are options in between kids up chimneys and saudi arabia i assure you

its irritating how whenever any of us criticise public expenditure waste by government, we are told to sit down and keep milking by those on the left and that we want no state , im not entirely sure what a libertarian is exactly but i dont think i am one

Why are you in a thread about all income tax being theft then?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we must always remember, wealth isnt just in control of wealthy individuals, but also wealthy institutions, corporations, businesses, groups, etc etc etc, our relationship with these groups is clearly obvious!

i beg to differ, regarding eastern european countries and flat taxes, no offence, but i ll stick with my sources , and their opinions on the matter

sebdavis wrote: »

First off you have people saying the wealthier in Ireland are interfering with political and democratic process. Just look at the political threads on here. If not Larry Goodman its Denis O Leary etc etc etc. Accusations of brown envelopes. That FG gave over documents or something to close a contract.

So what is the difference?

Anything to back this claim that a flat tax is bad? I can't find anything saying it is a disaster

this is a much bigger problem, than just wealthy individuals!

sure thing, American economist michael hudson has done some work on this, i think he was involved in helping those governments trying to fix the mess, after the fact

https://michael-hudson.com/

sebdavis

sebdavis wrote: »

But is the whole focus now to bring in the North? based on recent activity in the North I would suggest we are closer than ever to a civil war in Ireland. Well since the last one anyway......

That’s a pie in the sky dream. Nothing to do with this thread either.

JimmyVik

I have no problem paying income at all. Its the sheer amount of tax that I pay that annoys me.

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

I have no problem paying income at all. Its the sheer amount of tax that I pay that annoys me.

....again, this is a as a result of what is called the neoliberal era, taxation has moved from wealth towards you...........

sebdavis

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A flat tax would be ideal, a low 20% across the board for everyone. But ofcourse it would be politically unpopular because it would mean swathes of middle and upper income people actually get ti keep a decent portion of what they earn for once

That's is the problem. A lot easier to tax these people to their knees, crippling them with debt.

sebdavis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

this is a much bigger problem, than just wealthy individuals!

sure thing, American economist michael hudson has done some work on this, i think he was involved in helping those governments trying to fix the mess, after the fact

https://michael-hudson.com/

So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.

Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

Another way to reduce the high tax on middle earners is to tax the top earners (100k+) more.

Wanderer78

sebdavis wrote: »

So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.

maybe you need to look into who he actually is! i dont have time to fish out your exact request, but hudson has spoken about it in the past, he posts all his work on his site

sebdavis

sebdavis wrote: »

So your source is a random link to an American website, not to an article on the topic and has nothing to do with the Eastern European cities we discussed. I think a review of your sources might be in order.

I don’t think he’s going to provide any links that satisfy you. Dismissing a general economic argument because the author isn’t in Eastern Europe makes little sense.

sebdavis

fvp4 wrote: »

I don’t think he’s going to provide any links that satisfy you. Dismissing a general economic argument because the author isn’t in Eastern Europe makes little sense.

I am not dismissing it because he is American. I am questioning it because it is an American writing about introducing flat tax into America. Not about introducing into Ireland/European country. I think we can agree the American economy is a small bit different to the Irish one

The only document I could find as well written by him was in 2010, during the recession. Maybe he has others that are relevant? seems the poster doesn't want to share.

Wanderer78

sebdavis wrote: »

I am not dismissing it because he is American. I am questioning it because it is an American writing about introducing flat tax into America. Not about introducing into Ireland/European country. I think we can agree the American economy is a small bit different to the Irish one

The only document I could find as well written by him was in 2010, during the recession. Maybe he has others that are relevant? seems the poster doesn't want to share.

hudson is a global economic advisor, keep digging, you ll get there eventually, i dont have time to serve your needs, maybe check out https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/, he writes there to

JimmyVik

fvp4 wrote: »

Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

Another way to reduce the high tax on middle earners is to tax the top earners (100k+) more.

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

Wanderer78

JimmyVik wrote: »

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

cash in hand, if needs be

Geuze

fvp4 wrote: »

Don’t confuse the marginal tax with the over all tax rate. Yes the marginal is too high at too low an income. However overall tax is 30% on middle income earners and the flat rate will be around 30% with fewer tax credits.

Correct.

There are loads of earners here facing nearly 50% marginal income tax rates, but paying 10%-30% effective income tax rates.

Ireland has a very progressive income tax system.

Loads of earners pay zero.
Loads of earners pay little
BUT, people face 48.5% MTR at about 36k.

Geuze

JimmyVik wrote: »

Any overtime I do now, i end up with around half of it left in my pocket.
So I just dont bother taking any extra work anymore when the opportunity arises.
Was the same with the other half. She was asked to help out friend with a struggling local business for €12 ph.
She said she couldnt bring herself to work for what would be €6ph for her, no matter how much she would like to help out.

Yes.

It should not surprise anybody that charging nearly 50% marginal income tax on people earning less than mean FT earnings will lead to perverse incentives, whereby people refuse to work.

Wizard!

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Any alternatives to running our country and servicing our debts?

3DataModem wrote: »

All taxation is theft, but it is theft in service of the social contract.

We want roads, hospitals, schools, and social welfare for the less fortunate, medicine for the sick and dying, and wheelchairs for the disabled. We want to ensure that what property we have is secure (police/military), and that we have recourse when someone does us wrong (courts), and we want to make sure that people beyond their working age can have their basic living needs met (pensions).

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

If you are interested in where Irish tax goes, take a look: https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1721503/original/?width=630&version=1721503

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/21/facebook-posts/modern-income-tax-structure-born-1913-americans-pa/


From 1% to the rich, to 40% to middle class... That is some evolution, don't you think...?


Most rich people don't pay taxes and they say in several of their books, that governments are useless thieves, and do not try to invest to make money, since they have the easy way of collecting taxes. So, taxation is theft, caused by unorganized and incompetence people that we vote. Most of politicians would be complete failures in entrepreneurship

Geuze

sebdavis wrote: »

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

There are sensible economic arguments for supporting child-rearing.

How it should supported, for example: cash vs. tax relief vs services, yes you can debate that.