Did you know that Income tax is a 'temporary measure?'

RulesOfNature

You can google this right now. In most (I want to say all but I haven't been able to research every country's tax law) western nations Income tax is by law only a temporary measure that was brought upon during times of war. Yes there is technically always war but the laws signed when income tax was initiated states that they were to expire AFTER that specific war ended.

Here are a few examples, and Ireland is in there too:

USA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_Act_of_1861
What happened: Abe Lincoln imposed a 4% temporary income tax to fund the civil war. After the war ended the legislators convinced the public that in order to rebuild infrastructure and industrialize parts of the south to wean them off slavery they need to keep this tax for the next few years at least. They never stopped this temporary measure and instead increased it every year to an effective 20%-40% depending on the state.

UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_Tax_Act_1842
What happened: There was no real justification for this in terms of ideological appeal, unless you're a fan of British imperialism. By the time the Crimean war started it was pretty much set it stone. The UK had to fund its overseas imperialist interests, and by WW1 it was never going to disappear. It was 2.9%, which again went up and up every year to an effective 20-45%.

Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_Canada
What Happened: WW1 happened. Heres a direct paste from the Wiki page: Wartime expenses forced the Tories to re-consider their options and in 1918, the wartime government under Sir Robert Borden, imposed a "temporary" income tax to cover expenses. Despite the new tax the Canadian government ran up considerable debts during the war and were unable to forgo income tax revenue after the war ended. With the election of the Liberal government of Prime Minister William Lyon Mackenzie King, much of the National Policy was dismantled and income tax has remained in place ever since.

Ireland: http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2015/Documents/EY_Historical_Dev_International_Context_Irish_%20Corporation_Tax.pdf

What Happened: While still a subject of the crown, an income tax rate of 10% (Notice how its higher than the British tax, despite the nation being abjectly poor) was imposed in Ireland to fund the Napoleonic war. Read the tax of 1842 above for what happens after next. After WW1 Britain let go of its Imperialist ambitions, and in a stunning act Ireland adopts the British taxation system, despite effectively not having the need to recoup after a World War it did not participate in. As usual the tax rates inched every year by half a percent or so to where it is now, up to 40%.

What am I trying to say with all this information? Not much. I haven't researched every country but so far its been the exact same pattern: Justify taxation with a war, then rejustify keeping it to rebuild destroyed infrastructure CAUSED by the war, then increase it by half a percent every year that way it seems reasonable and not out of line. With every generation seeing an increase of 5-10% it doesnt seem too much to the average person. But the problem is the fiat system is inflationary by design - by decreasing the purchasing power of your money every year you are thus motivated to work and be productive to acquire more money, and to purchase assets to hedge against inflation. Taxes is how fiat controls inflation, which necessitates increasing it every year.

Mind you these taxes were imposed before the fiat system was codified. It might be worth noting that the fiat system, at least according to a few economists ( https://www.jstor.org/stable/41486019 ) exists to permanently intertwine taxes with all aspects of society from the smallest purchase of chocolate to travel, to marriage etc. This intertwining makes it possible to include everyone into a market economy and thus every bit of labor and productivity contributes to the macroeconomic structure of the nation.This way the entire population is participating, but the downside is this means income taxes are now irremovable without fundamentally dismantling society.

It is entirely possible that in a generation or so there will be income taxes in the range of 80-90%. It sounds insane now but try telling the average person from the 1850s that their temporary 4% income tax will be a permanent 40% in 2 generations. Its not that out of line. Its the same pattern.

In a related sense, I've also found out that “Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program” – Milton Friedman.

Remember in the past 20 years what other 'Temporary Measures' have become permanent? In the wider world there is Homeland Security, Guantanamo Bay, Invasive Surveillance, War in the Middle East. These temporary measures became permanent because it allows the ruling class to effectively impose laws (in some cases break those laws) to increase effective policing, or continue to profit from various industries that are propped up by war.

I wonder what temporary measures right now will become permanent too?

coinop

Just like the M1 motorway toll was temporary.

con747

Just like life, it's a temporary measure.

Victor

My, do I foresee this thread as:

!. A fountain of novel discovery or
2. The rehashing of misguided anecdote and rumours bordering on conspiracy theory material that appeals to bargain basement libertarians?

"despite effectively not having the need to recoup after a World War it did not participate in." - the country was at war 1914-23, whether it liked it or not. More than 50,000 dead and the country trashed. You also fail to mention that taxes fell after independence and nuances like the Irish Boundary Commission.

coinop wrote: »

Just like the M1 motorway toll was temporary.

Who said this? People down the pub engaging in wishful thinking?

Normal One

Isn't life just a temporary blip on the journey.

Wanderer78

I avoid income tax now, I just became extremely wealthy, job done

MayoSalmon

Income taxation is pure theft.

Wanderer78

MayoSalmon wrote:

Income taxation is pure theft.

Any alternatives to running our country and servicing our debts?

3DataModem

All taxation is theft, but it is theft in service of the social contract.

We want roads, hospitals, schools, and social welfare for the less fortunate, medicine for the sick and dying, and wheelchairs for the disabled. We want to ensure that what property we have is secure (police/military), and that we have recourse when someone does us wrong (courts), and we want to make sure that people beyond their working age can have their basic living needs met (pensions).

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

If you are interested in where Irish tax goes, take a look: https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1721503/original/?width=630&version=1721503

MayoSalmon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Any alternatives to running our country and servicing our debts?

Everything but income taxation is okay as at least there is "some" consent involved there...stop thieving the wallet of the worker

Wanderer78

3DataModem wrote:

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

So it's not really theft at all, it's an automatic sign up upon arrival, and virtually impossible to opt out, ever. Do we really have democracy, is what we have, truly democratic, and is what we have truly fair?

Wanderer78

MayoSalmon wrote:

Everything but income taxation is okay as at least there is "some" consent involved there...stop thieving the wallet of the worker

As others have pointed out, how do you propose we create and run the critical services and infrastructure we need, if income tax does not exist, and please explain how this is theft?

Former Former Former

You can always opt out of paying tax to the state. Just go live somewhere else. Please.

Wanderer78

Former Former Former wrote:

You can always opt out of paying tax. Just go live somewhere else. Please.

Where?

Pawwed Rig

At least they got rid of USC like they promised




oh wait

MayoSalmon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

As others have pointed out, how do you propose we create and run the critical services and infrastructure we need, if income tax does not exist, and please explain how this is theft?

Consumption tax is okay to levy..just told you that.

It's theft by its very nature... government have no right to take a portion of my income...like why would they. Furthermore if I withold the threat of force aka prison time is real.

whippet

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Everything but income taxation is okay as at least there is "some" consent involved there...stop thieving the wallet of the worker

Who’s wallet should be used to pay ?

The Freemen on the Land theory is that taxation is voluntary and you have the right to just refuse to pay. All from the same line of ‘consent’ ... but as we all know these arguments have been debunked time abs time again .. but nevertheless a few people get sucked in to believing it.

hurleronditch

RulesOfNature wrote: »

It is entirely possible that in a generation or so there will be income taxes in the range of 80-90%. It sounds insane now but try telling the average person from the 1850s that their temporary 4% income tax will be a permanent 40% in 2 generations. Its not that out of line. Its the same pattern.

How to you put this comment in the context of income taxes being 65% or so in the 1980s?

It’s not a linear upward progression from 4% to the current 40+%, it’s been jumping around but consistently in the 40% range for almost 30 years at this stage, so there’s zero evidence of this pattern heading for 80-90%.

I don’t love paying the tax that I do, but I completely understand it is a necessary evil. The only reform I would propose is a more American style system with lower income taxes and higher property taxes. The country has a massive problem with housing within a commutable distance of Dublin City in particular, with a huge amount of housing stock almost empty within a half an hours drive of O’Connell street, with 3 and 4 bed houses lived in by one or two elderly people, holding on to large houses for the one time a year the kids come back at Christmas. Skewing the tax regime to encourage them to move elsewhere and rewarding the working young with bower income tax will benefit all. The problem is it needs somewhere established for the older people to move to, the US is much better set up for this with condo living arrangements, do we turn Wexford into our Florida and move the greys brigade down there to well structured apartment and assisted living set ups?

sebdavis

I don’t have a problem with tax, if I pay tax then I get access to hospital, roads etc

I do have a problem with social welfare and all that is dragged along with it, giving people the ability to be a career unemployed is and never was a good system.

Year on year providing a pay raise while people who actually work are struggling is what has seriously gone wrong

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

MayoSalmon

sebdavis wrote: »

I don’t have a problem with tax, if I pay tax then I get access to hospital, roads etc

I do have a problem with social welfare and all that is dragged along with it, giving people the ability to be a career unemployed is and never was a good system.

Year on year providing a pay raise while people who actually work are struggling is what has seriously gone wrong

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

You can have access to all those things without tax... you think if we didnt have tax society would just decide well the government won't build these things so I guess we don't want roads, schools, hospitals now...lol

Allinall

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Consumption tax is okay to levy..just told you that.

It's theft by its very nature... government have no right to take a portion of my income...like why would they. Furthermore if I withold the threat of force aka prison time is real.

Government do have a right to take a portion of income.

We, as a collective give them that right.

We, also as a collective, deny any individual from opting out of the collective.

paw patrol

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

At least they got rid of USC like they promised




oh wait

PRSI was for 2 years in the 1970s too.

I see a pattern here...

Always amusing to see the libertarian and NP economists embarrassing themselves

Gaspode

All I can say is so what, temporary measures regularly become permanent. My dad told my mum he'd only put it in for a second, and well here I am.

SEPT 23 1989

The Covid Solidarity Tax will be temporary as well

sebdavis

MayoSalmon wrote: »

You can have access to all those things without tax... you think if we didnt have tax society would just decide well the government won't build these things so I guess we don't want roads, schools, hospitals now...lol

Magic money tree going to pay for them?

paw patrol

3DataModem wrote: »

All taxation is theft, but it is theft in service of the social contract.

We want roads, hospitals, schools, and social welfare for the less fortunate, medicine for the sick and dying, and wheelchairs for the disabled. We want to ensure that what property we have is secure (police/military), and that we have recourse when someone does us wrong (courts), and we want to make sure that people beyond their working age can have their basic living needs met (pensions).

As a society we have agreed tacitly to maintain this "theft under duress" system because life will generally be better for all if we do so. There's horrible waste, and horrible inefficiencies (especially in democracies) but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

If you are interested in where Irish tax goes, take a look: https://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/1721503/original/?width=630&version=1721503

if you take a worker persons money by force (under the threat of the law/jail) then it's theft you can jazz it up with fancy words but it's pure theft.

What would we have without it? People would gladly pay voluntary for roads/hospitals etc... and services that helped all of society.

But that isn't what happens. We have monies side tracked in to pet projects and avenues that does society no good. The NGO sector for one.
Millions poured into this sector to achieve what?
The money is not only being taken by force but wasted on utter gash.
There is no accountability and those that mess up pay no price for this unlike the private sector.

you say

but most people generally accept this system has enough fairness and enough benefit to be sustainable, and is better than chaos.

You can't say there would be chaos , people would pay for proper services but I'd argue there is a mix of apathy and ignorance within the population.
I find the political system is set up in such a way that the average working man has no access or influence unless they join a party machine.

I email my TDs on occasion. I have never received satisfaction from any minor to international viewpoint. Party/state line continually returned.

sebdavis

paw patrol wrote: »

if you take a worker persons money by force (under the threat of the law/jail) then it's theft you can jazz it up with fancy words but it's pure theft.

What would we have without it? People would gladly pay voluntary for roads/hospitals etc... and services that helped all of society.

But that isn't what happens. We have monies side tracked in to pet projects and avenues that does society no good. The NGO sector for one.
Millions poured into this sector to achieve what?
The money is not only being taken by force but wasted on utter gash.
There is no accountability and those that mess up pay no price for this unlike the private sector.

you say



You can't say there would be chaos , people would pay for proper services but I'd argue there is a mix of apathy and ignorance within the population.
I find the political system is set up in such a way that the average working man has no access or influence unless they join a party machine.

I email my TDs on occasion. I have never received satisfaction from any minor to international viewpoint. Party/state line continually returned.

Are you having a laugh? People gladly pay? Not a chance in hell, not in ireland

You would have a few people and the rest would sit back. Then when they get sick you would have a great parade about what a lovely fellow he is, his mammy was lovely and the hospitals should threat him. Ahh gawd the poor fellow....

MayoSalmon

sebdavis wrote: »

Magic money tree going to pay for them?

Same people who pay for them today will pay tomorrow...what's a magic tree got to do with it?!

The J Stands for Jay

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The Covid Solidarity Tax will be temporary as well

What will CST be quietly changed to stand for when it doesn't disappear?

paw patrol

paw patrol wrote: »

if you take a worker persons money by force (under the threat of the law/jail) then it's theft you can jazz it up with fancy words but it's pure theft.

Actually, that would be robbery.

So not pure theft at all

sebdavis

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Same people who pay for them today will pay tomorrow...what's a magic tree got to do with it?!

People pay via taxes, give them the option of no taxes is the money going to just appear from no where?

Mike Murdock

You really think if Irish people had the option to not pay taxes and voluntarily pay to run the country, they'd voluntarily pay to run the country?

antimatterx

I have no problems paying income tax tbh. We live in a great country for most part, and if the alternative is huge medical and student debt like American, I think I'll take what Ireland is doing.

However I do wish it was lower, (even eliminate USC, and increase the CGT threshold to 10K like England).

paw patrol

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Actually, that would be robbery.

So not pure theft at all

I know you are a garda. So for a garda robbery/theft make have specific meanings and not mean the same.
i'm a mere IT functionary - I see them as interchangeable perhaps out of ignorance.

if I missed the point, can you elaborate.

Wanderer78

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Consumption tax is okay to levy..just told you that.

It's theft by its very nature... government have no right to take a portion of my income...like why would they. Furthermore if I withold the threat of force aka prison time is real.

so you want is to consume more, knowing that we re in a serious environmental crisis, largely due to over consumption?

once again, its an automatic sign in, theres plenty of options available to you to reduce these amounts required to pay, this is not theft!

sebdavis wrote: »

I don’t have a problem with tax, if I pay tax then I get access to hospital, roads etc

I do have a problem with social welfare and all that is dragged along with it, giving people the ability to be a career unemployed is and never was a good system.

Year on year providing a pay raise while people who actually work are struggling is what has seriously gone wrong

Child benefit? If you can’t afford to have children don’t have them. Why do you need a paid for having children?

you need to look into the root causes of long term unemployment!

all people employed work, its pretty basic economics! increasing pay is generally good for an economy, it increases the money supply, and ultimately the velocity of the money supply, particularly if it is spent back into the economy

so most humans have been planned, including ourselves? what happens if 'mistakes' occur, do we send the kids back or something?

MayoSalmon wrote: »

You can have access to all those things without tax... you think if we didnt have tax society would just decide well the government won't build these things so I guess we don't want roads, schools, hospitals now...lol

please show us a society that has done this successfully?

DubInMeath wrote: »

Always amusing to see the libertarian and NP economists embarrassing themselves

whats an np?

sebdavis wrote: »

Magic money tree going to pay for them?

well we could default to the magical private sector money trees of credit, as 08 was some craic!

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Same people who pay for them today will pay tomorrow...what's a magic tree got to do with it?!

'how are we gonna pay for it'?

sebdavis wrote: »

People pay via taxes, give them the option of no taxes is the money going to just appear from no where?

well since money is effectively created from nothing, maybe!

paw patrol

sebdavis wrote: »

Are you having a laugh? People gladly pay? Not a chance in hell, not in ireland

You would have a few people and the rest would sit back. Then when they get sick you would have a great parade about what a lovely fellow he is, his mammy was lovely and the hospitals should threat him. Ahh gawd the poor fellow....

they would. And the parade would pay for it - collections galore - free choice if you pay for it.
I wish we had a minimal state that ran the basics and there was accountability for waste or largesse.

That's it. we can debate the minutiae later.


But please can we burn the NGO sector.

If you want to pay for free lentil soup for multi racial lesbians that's fine - pay for it out of your own cash.
Id' rather the state wasn't spunking my earned monies on such sh1thawery but if you do , do it voluntarily

osarusan

The idea that a country like Ireland would rely on voluntary contributions from its residents to fund the state's services and infrastructure is madness. Beyond even libertarian delusion.

Just look at what happened to Irish Water.

just look at the amount of people who don't bother paying their own mortgate.

Just look at the amount of people who won't pay for their own bins.

People who won't even pay for themselves, never mind voluntarily contributing to pay for others.

KyussB

One of the primary purposes of taxes is to ensure demand for the national currency, so that it is enforced as the dominant currency.

If everyone has to pay some portion of income tax, and those taxes are denominated in Euro's - then that will ground demand for the Euro, ensuring it is the dominant currency.

We don't actually need Income Tax for that, though - some economists support replacing it with land or property tax instead, as that would fulfill the same purpose.

That's not the only role for income tax, though - it also plays a role in managing income/wealth inequality - so we would either want to keep it and set it at a very high starting threshold (and treat capital gains as income as well), or we would want to get rid of it entirely and implement a Maximum Wage (which doesn't have to be fixed, it can be a multiple of the lowest wage in a business).

We are a long way away from being able to consider such tax reforms, though. Countries need to be in control of their own currency and no longer view taxes as 'funding' their government, to start seeing these shifts in perspective - and we aren't.

magicbastarder

paw patrol wrote: »

But please can we burn the NGO sector.

ignoring your ludicrous parodying of the NGO sector, a lot of that sector exists precisely because of the state *not* providing services they should provide. so we could onboard their tasks, but then it'd solidify the taxpayer footing the bill.
and this is as it should be.

MayoSalmon

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Consumption tax is okay to levy..just told you that.

It's theft by its very nature... government have no right to take a portion of my income...like why would they. Furthermore if I withold the threat of force aka prison time is real.

They have that tight because in democratic society we’ve agreed to chip in. Saying income tax is theft is like saying that paying an agreed management fee is theft.

Pawwed Rig

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

At least they got rid of USC like they promised




oh wait

I promised myself the next time I vote in a GE is when one of them is going to rid us of that. I don’t think I’ll ever have to go to the bother of registering again.

MayoSalmon

MayoSalmon wrote: »

You can have access to all those things without tax... you think if we didnt have tax society would just decide well the government won't build these things so I guess we don't want roads, schools, hospitals now...lol

Er, yes? Or they would be prohibitively expensive for most. In many places private enterprise wouldn’t bother

ThreeGreens

If taxes were abolished today, then one of two things would happen.

1. You'd have a whole load of additional charges that would suck up your newly freed income (such as education charges, tolls on roads, private security, additional medical costs and insurance), or
2. Your salary would be reduced, because someone else would be willing to do the job for less, because they still have the same take home pay.

In the end, you'd not be financially better off, and we'd need to come up with a new system for dividing up shared costs. Building a road would be next to impossible without a central government (which needs to be funded) to organise it. Imaging trying to agree that between a private company and the many land owners who need to sell some of their land to build the road on!

Mike Murdock

magicbastarder wrote: »

ignoring your ludicrous parodying of the NGO sector, a lot of that sector exists precisely because of the state *not* providing services they should provide. so we could onboard their tasks, but then it'd solidify the taxpayer footing the bill.
and this is as it should be.

The sector is full of organisations that duplicate each other's work.
A culling is needed.

tdf7187

RulesOfNature wrote: »

I wonder what temporary measures right now will become permanent too?

You mean like schools, hospitals, roads, train lines etc?

magicbastarder

Mike Murdock wrote: »

The sector is full of organisations that duplicate each other's work.
A culling is needed.

or, as i said, maybe the government need to take on the tasks (where they should) and make the organisations/charities irrelevant.
that is the funny thing about a lot of these organisations - their ultimate aim is that they should cease to need to exist.

The online libertarian thing is well dead by now. Lads who watched a video about Hayek on YouTube and got to page 12 of some Ayn Rand borefest suddenly thought they had all the answers. Very 2012.

They’ve moved on to cryptocurrency and hating feminists these days.

KyussB

They went away while Trump was in office, now the money is flowing into astroturfing again.

biko

DubInMeath wrote: »

Always amusing to see the libertarian and NP economists embarrassing themselves

There is nothing to stop you from correcting everyone's mistakes, Paschal Donohoe.

Glaceon

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whats an np?

National Party I assume?