Brian Fenton - Overrated?

rpurfield

We really need more late night can induced threads in here :pac:

You can't compare eras, only the other week I sat down to watch Meath v Kerry from 2001 (on Youtube btw) and I text one of my mates to say the amount of turn overs would give you anxiety watching it. That was "only" 20 years ago!

What I would say about Fenton we ask the young lads on our U13 team to watch him in games. His positioning and awareness is savage. Even little things like knowing what side to have the ball on to protect it in a tackle a suprising amount of inter county lads don't have that awareness. Its easy to say he looks good because the Dubs are streets ahead, but they are streets ahead because of lads like him. I still think you could throw him into any team at the minute and he'd improve them right away by a decent margin.

elefant

He's probably the best player of the modern era and so, accepting that, it's somewhat axiomatic that he's the best player ever.

Any of the top teams today would annihilate the teams of the 90s and every decade before that. Say what you want about 'if the Meath team of the 90s had access to modern sports science', they didn't and Brian Fenton would complete dominate them.

ebbsy

Terrible thread.

Billy Ocean

Golden Miller MIA sense Saturday night, must be a 2 day hangover.

rpurfield

Billy Ocean wrote: »

Golden Miller MIA sense Saturday night, must be a 2 day hangover.

Happens when you get older Billy. Don’t blame the OP

Strumms

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No, but what other test has Fenton had? That's it, literally. And he didn't pass that test imo

His collection of medals....

Leinster Titles : 6

All Ireland’s : 6

Leagues : 3

All Stars : 5


He is as of 6 weeks ago.... 28 years of age...

More..

Footballer of the year in 2018 & 2020

He’s past every test that has been going and some.

Underrated if anything.

Billy Mays

The Golden Miller wrote: »

He was part of a great team. I don't remember him ever being instrumental against Kerry, as he was in Jack Barry's pocket, who played two huge games against Dublin and laid the foundation for Kerry's fight from the center.

Dublin would of over run Kerry in both games in the final only for Barry, who broke up everything and fielded everything to turn the possession back on Dublin. Fenton was a bystander, Barry was immense. That's the reality

He was man of the match in the 2015 A.I. final.


Against Kerry.

thesultan

A great player but Jacko is the best I've seen..

Hulk Hands

Has there ever been a midfielder that scored even half as much from play as Fenton? Granted he's on an amazing team that runs up the score against dross, but still his stats in that regard appear incredible. I worked out to win an argument a few years back that Paul Conroy had been the highest scoring midfielder for a couple of years period and Fenton is certainly now outscoring that rate 2:1 at least

corny

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Has there ever been a midfielder that scored even half as much from play as Fenton? Granted he's on an amazing team that runs up the score against dross, but still his stats in that regard appear incredible. I worked out to win an argument a few years back that Paul Conroy had been the highest scoring midfielder for a couple of years period and Fenton is certainly now outscoring that rate 2:1 at least

It's more the way he takes scores for me. He can score off either foot, from distance and in tight spaces he can make room for himself like the very best inside forwards. On top of all the other stuff it's incredible.

Hulk Hands

corny wrote: »

It's more the way he takes scores for me. He can score off either foot, from distance and in tight spaces he can make room for himself like the very best inside forwards. On top of all the other stuff it's incredible.

Agreed yeah. Left or right, instep curler or put the foot through it. Plenty of goals in there as well. I don't particularly like Dublin but have to concede he's playing at a level probably beyond what we've seen of a midfielder before. Is that better than the consensus best of the past (M O'Connell or Sean Purcell) or in recent times (Peter Canavan), is up for debate. He's probably the best I've seen on balance

Gael85

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Has there ever been a midfielder that scored even half as much from play as Fenton? Granted he's on an amazing team that runs up the score against dross, but still his stats in that regard appear incredible. I worked out to win an argument a few years back that Paul Conroy had been the highest scoring midfielder for a couple of years period and Fenton is certainly now outscoring that rate 2:1 at least

Ciaran Whelan and Sean Cavanagh(2003-07) were prolific scorers from midfield. I will update Paul Conroy stats tomorrow. He played majority of football in football.

Player County Year Games Goals Points Total

Whelan, Ciaran Dublin 1996 1 0 2 2
1997 0 0 0 0
1998 2 0 0 0
1999 4 0 6 6
2000 3 0 4 4
2001 6 1 12 15
2002 6 1 9 12
2003 4 0 4 4
2004 6 0 5 5
2005 6 0 3 3
2006 5 0 0 0
2007 6 0 4 4
2008 3 0 1 1
2009 4 0 1 1
56 2 51 57


Player County Year Games Goals Points Total

Cavanagh, Sean Tyrone 2002 5 1 5 8
2003 7 1 9 12
2004 7 1 12 15
2005 10 0 12 12
2006 4 0 2 2
2007 4 1 6 9
2008 8 2 23 29
2009 5 1 7 10
2010 4 0 9 9
2011 6 2 16 22
2012 0 0 0 0
2013 7 0 29 29
2014 5 0 17 17
2015 7 0 15 15
2016 5 0 7 7
2017 5 0 15 15
89 9 184 211


Player County Year Games Goals Points Total

Fenton, Brian Dublin 2015 7 0 4 4
2016 7 0 3 3
2017 6 0 4 4
2018 7 1 13 16
2019 8 3 8 17
2020 5 0 9 9
40 4 41 53

Gael85

Gary Brennan had a great scoring record from midfield.

Player County Year Games Goals Points Total

Brennan, Gary Clare 2007 1 0 0 0
2008 2 0 0 0
2009 2 1 0 3
2010 2 0 3 3
2011 2 0 3 3
2012 3 0 3 3
2013 2 1 0 3
2014 5 1 10 13
2015 3 0 8 8
2016 6 1 5 8
2017 4 0 4 4
2018 4 0 0 0
2019 5 1 6 9
2020 1 0 1 1
42 5 43 58

thesultan

Seán Cavanagh was a forward for the most part

ArielAtom

No.

seligehgit

thesultan wrote: »

Seán Cavanagh was a forward for the most part

Midfielder?

Moved into the half forwards > full forward later in his career.

flasher0030

Without researching it, my initial thought was that Sean Kavanagh was more of a forward i.e. played a significant amount of games in a forward position. And when he played midfield, he was given complete freedom to attack as a forward. And to implement the Seanie Shuffle to set himself up for a score. Great player, but I wouldn't hold him in as high regard as I do with Brian Fenton. Fenton is phenomenal. Best player I have seen in my 35 years of watching.

External Association

I wouldn't put Fenton ahead of Peter Canavan though.

Canavan scored all bar a point for Tyrone in the 1995 AI final. How would Fenton perform on an ordinary team. It's not his fault he's on the greatest team of all time but would he stand out head and shoulders above everyone if he played with Laois or Kildare. I don't know tbh.

Hulk Hands

Cheers for that Gael85. It looks as if you're including frees in some of the stats (Cavanaghs anyway)? I meant just from play but interesting nonetheless

I always has Cavanagh down as a midfielder until 2013 and a forward from then on but open to correction

Gael85

Hulk Hands wrote: »

Cheers for that Gael85. It looks as if you're including frees in some of the stats (Cavanaghs anyway)? I meant just from play but interesting nonetheless

I always has Cavanagh down as a midfielder until 2013 and a forward from then on but open to correction

Cavanagh played his first year at corner forward. He played 2008 at full forward. He was midfield 03-07. He took frees from the left side in 2008.

flasher0030

Gael85 wrote: »

Cavanagh played his first year at corner forward. He played 2008 at full forward. He was midfield 03-07. He took frees from the left side in 2008.

What about from 2009 to 2017?

Gael85

flasher0030 wrote: »

What about from 2009 to 2017?

Played full forward. Would have taken a few frees in that time.

flasher0030

Gael85 wrote: »

Played full forward. Would have taken a few frees in that time.

Cheers. Thanks.

bertos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116923701#Comment_116923701

I agree. The 90s was a different game and far more of a spectacle in my opinion. There were real contests in midfield with every kickout being contested. Now the middle of the field is the least intense area and is extremely loose. McDermott was a huge presence even in a crowded midfield. Fenton would not be as big an influence here. Niall Buckley was the best I've seen at his peak and a far superior player to Fenton in my opinion, dictating play and scoring exquisite long range points while also fielding well. Along with Tohill, these were box to box midfielders. Fenton works from midfield forward and neither has the style of Buckley nor power or workrate that McDermott had. He is a good modern day midfield but his role means he avoids what the 90s midfielders had to do. Greatest of all time is a step way too far IMHO.

gormdubhgorm

I have not read this thread but my first thought was when I saw the title was would ya feck off! Then I read the first few lines of the OP - he is not even Dublin’s best midfielder?!!

Wha??? And Dublin struggling to find a midfield partner with him of late. Fenton is basically a modern Jack O’Shea. An effortless languid running style that makes him seem not as quick as he is. Comfortable on the ball - head up. Great striker of the ball lovely technique with points from range. Great awareness of the danger around him and knows when to nullify trouble on the pitch. Basically the complete footballer similar to Jack O’Shea. Everything done as second nature and looks easy.

piplip87

Anthony Tohill, Ciaran Whelan where far superior centre field players than Fenton. Fenton is a class act though. Definitely the best centre field players of the last 10-15 years.

My all time favourite midfielder is Dermot McCabe though. Between 96-2000 he would have walked into any county team in the country. His fielding was immense, kick passing as accurate as you could get and as for shooting could bang one over from outside the 45 to give the whole team a lift. Now as a Cavan man I am possibly a bit bias.

dirtyden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118207783#Comment_118207783

I don’t know about all time but having seen Tohill, Whelan, McCabe and Fenton, Fenton is more than a bit ahead out of that 4. Much more of an athlete but had all the football skills also.

gormdubhgorm

Tohill was a great I would agree there. Monster of a player. McCabe harder to say as the players around him was not up to much quality wise. A good few rungs down.

But as a Dub supporter I honestly started laughing when you said Whelan was a better footballer than Fenton.

Have seen both in their pomp. Up close in Parnell etc. Whelan would not have had the same skill level as his clubman Fenton. How would I describe Whelan? More on the athletic/brute force side of things. I think in todays game he would have played more as a hardworking half forward.

Fenton in contrast can pick a pass as well as being athletic. It is not fluke that Whelan never won his battles v Darragh O’Se. Whelan was just not as gifted technically. Simple as that.

But yet in the era he played Whelan was the key man for Dublin which says a lot IMO.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193126#Comment_118193126

I agree. Real battled hardered midfielders, who often in limited teams, towered above others when it counted.

Fenton, in reality, has never even been in a true battle to prove his metal. Until this year, the closest we got was when he met Kerry. On several occasions, was next to anonymous against them.

Dublin regressed a level this year, so he was in a few battles for once, Meath and Mayo. Failed on both counts imo.

Infact seemed stunned that Meath had the audacity to put it up to them, so hid. As for presence against Mayo, when the chips were down, where was the greatest player ever? Anonymous

Like I said, for years cruised in a great team, never in a true battle. Of any battle we have seen him in, pulls a disappearing act.

Good player, but greatest ever? Pull the other one. Insult to many of the true great battle hardened players we've seen.

Niall Buckley would of made this guy look like a child tbh

The Golden Miller

And I stand by what I said earlier. Give a Meath team of old the benefits and conditioning of this Dublin team, they'd do a job on them.

Thing is, this Dublin team never faced a serious outfit like those Meath teams of old, and had they, I'd very much not be betting on them to get a result. They'd be turned over.

This Dublin team dominated a weak era, where teams were 10 years behind in development. The governments plan to make GAA popular in the capital. When on an equal footing, they lived in Meaths shadow.

It's good a decade later, other counties implemented unaderage structures to compete, but Dublin had a free generation before the others caught up.

Cheap all Irelands. By the time others seen the effect government funding had on Dublin GAA, by the late 00s/early 10s, other counties were already a generation/10 years behind in development. Only now they are catching up.

In saying that, one thing that can't be ignored, regardless of how good Dublin were, is how cheaply Meath lost to them for the last decade. I don't care how good Dublin are, Meath should never lie down like that.

Even if Meath improve going forward, they can never excuse those defeats. A Meath team dies on their feet before they lose to Dublin. Meath for the last decade embarrassed their own history and aura

At least now, the others have caught/ are catching up with dublin

billyhead

I see the begrudgers are out. Cheap AIs. Laughable. The Dubs could only beat what's in front of them. They got their act together at underage and reaped the benefits.

interlocked

I think the real discussion would be to compare Fenton to Brian Mullins. Himself and Jack O Shea would be hard to separate if you were picking a greatest midfield in my lifetime. And Mullins came back from a bad motorbike crash to play again.

I'm not denigrating Fenton btw, great footballer.

The Golden Miller

Jack Barry does a job on the once hailed "greatest player of all time" again. As we've seen for a few years now, as Dublin have been landed in some big battles, Fenton although a decent player, isn't close to the level of hype that once surrounded him. Has all the attributes when his team cruised, when it's been put up to him, very quite for long periods it must be said. This guy was lucky he was never landed in a battle against the Meath teams of old

WJL

No way. Great player.

dunnerc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324038#Comment_119324038

Yea Fenton is just a decent player , and lucky as well it must be said lol......

Old_-_School

Jack O'Shea from 1980 to 1985 saw the greatest level of midfield play ever seen.

6 All-Stars in a row. 4 times Player of the year.

He wasn't half bad in 77, 78, 79 and 86 either but was just at another level for those 6 years, so anyone getting compared to O'Shea is going to come off 2nd best.

Fenton has had 2 poor years and will be the wrong side of 30 for next year's Championship so I don't expect him to improve on his 2021 and 2022 form, but will leave with a very strong legacy, possibly only behind Mullins for midfielders in a blue jersey and 4th behind McCarthy, Flynn and Cluxton of the decade of the Dubs team.

keeponhurling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119324038#Comment_119324038

Jack Barry offers relatively little going forward, so in a way it's a compliment that Kerry sacrifice one of their midfielders simply to contain Fenton.

Fenton is certainly one of the best midfielders in the country, if not the best. Maybe best of the last 10 years.

I don't think he's quite in the "greatest ever midfielder" discussion though. He has a lot of medals and All-Irelands, but if you only look at that you're effectively ruling out any player ever from a weaker county.

J Cheever Loophole

Brian Fenton overrated? I don't think so. One of the greatest players I have ever seen. The fact that he is here and now - as well as from Dublin - means that many will pooh-pooh his claims to greatness.

Jacko was the greatest midfielder I have ever seen and for many years I would have had Mullins alongside him, in my all time 15. Since then, there have been a further two players who would vie for the position of Jacko's partner in my greatest ever 15. Tohill and Fenton.

paddyisreal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118193126#Comment_118193126

Would totally agree regarding Buckley, what a talent ! Seen a video the other day where he kicked a free against Meath in 97 I think, it was as far out as seanie o Shea against Dublin but on a damp wet day.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363336#Comment_119363336

Buckley was a monster of a man, the aura around him, he was a giant. Battle hardened and could field any ball. Proper midfielder that gave Meath alot to think about in their pomp. Very little like him since. His presence demanded respect

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363086#Comment_119363086

Ye great in a team miles ahead of the rest. Rarely hear his name mentioned the last few years when in a real battle. The likes of Buckley, McDermott et all would of made light work of him imo. Everyone quick to shout "greatest of all time" in the modern world, Fenton an example of why we shouldn't

Did you smash it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369062#Comment_119369062

John McDermott wasn’t in the same league as Fenton. I liked McDermott but he barely scored and was a fielder, workhorse and physical player, he had little skill. Fenton not scoring is rare.

if you think McDermott is a better player I have to take your opinions with a pinch of salt

J Cheever Loophole

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119369062#Comment_119369062

I actually thought the great Dublin team were involved in many battles - Kerry and Mayo of course, both come to mind - and Fenton was a key factor in them squeezing out victories in what were titanic struggles.

Gael85

I thought Brian Fenton was brilliant yesterday. Stood up when the going got tough.

The two Brian’s in midfield for the Dubs are top class footballers.

The Golden Miller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120919349#Comment_120919349

People say Jack Barry was poor, but Fenton only played well after he went off tbh

leath_dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937080#Comment_120937080

You are deluded.

Jack Barry was taken off and Fenton was in the conversation for man of the match.

Fenton did not have a great year by his standards but when it was on the line, he delivered.

I doubt Jack Barry would make the Dublin match day squad. Fair play to him for achieving the success he has had to date