Does England feel like a foreign country to you?

arccosh

been here a few years on the south coast...

for somewhere so close, it's so different.

South coast is very affluent, the empire is still very much alive to them...

Still feel like an outsider after all these years, don't think I'll ever "get" south coasters..


The friends I do have down this way are from up north, far more down to earth and genuine I found....

murpho999

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I'd actually say that Ireland and India - former colonial countries in general - hold on to the class system more than England do. You just haven't met the true aristocracy of Ireland.

Well India had a caste system long before they were colonised and that still exists.
As for Ireland the class system in Ireland, it's almost non-existent and there's no comparison in levels of aristocracy between the countries.
Those gobsh1tes who claim to be lords and ladies (Henry Mountcharles) are remnants from the Anglo landowners that where here during English rule and are very much in the minority and very little influence unlike England. Look at the Tory government is an example, bunch of toffs in power and we just don't have politics like that here.

London is abysmal, the anonymity drove me insane. Every friendship or relationship there is either work-related, or transient. Many people make friends there but I have noticed that most of the relationships surround the joint effort of going to pubs after work before grabbing the tube home.

Sorry but I wouldn't say true Londoners only have friends through work. Bizarre statement.

gormdubhgorm

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Well the act of Union in 1800 worked fairly well, Brian Boru was the closest an Irishman ever got to a UI. Unless you count the Confederation of Kilkenny. But that was only because The British were rowing among themselves.

In threads like these I always find the Irish Language and the Irish people's relationship with it an issue. Contrasting with their sense of Irishness. And more importantly the Irish people's relationship with English popular culture, sports and so on.

In many cases even Republicans neglect the Irish language (some are fluent no doubt) but many have mere conversational Irish or none at all. The only sense of difference that many such Irish person seems to create to show their sense of Irishness and how 'not-English' they are is to be anti-partition to various degrees.

As language cannot be used as the differentiator because many people know in their heart of hearts they neglected the language or only care about the symbolism of it at best.

Yet such people have to try and show how 'Irish' they are in some manner while still falling in love with English pastimes (Soccer teams, music, soaps, entertainment and so on)

I always find it funny to watch such people and laugh at the contradictions.

The ties between Ireland and England is so strong even many die hard Republican 'look how Irish I am' people cannot shake it off. For instance Martin McGuinness as well as supporting the two Derry teams in GAA, and soccer. He also supported another soccer team Manchester United! The same city the IRA bombed in 1996.

http://pogmogoal.com/culture/be-here-now-martin-mcguinness-and-manchester-united/24538/

By that logic may as well call the British Americans or New Zealander’s Aussie’s or Austrians Germans.

Tony EH

indioblack wrote: »

In the case of "war museums ", they're more likely to represent the past.

True. But a lot of people still expect that jolly old England way that just isn't there any more.

indioblack

Tony EH wrote: »

True. But a lot of people still expect that jolly old England way that just isn't there any more.

Yes, though I doubt if it was as jolly as it's perceived. The past has the benefit of being made neat and tidy - as opposed to the uncertainty of the changeable present.
As to the OP, England is obviously a different country, yet my experience of Ireland leads me to think that there are more similarities than differences.

McGinniesta

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Yep. Very much so

I worked over there for 2 years in London and the Luton area.

One thing I noticed is how run down and dilapidated a lot of the UK cities are. Wasn’t expecting that.

Yes you had new developments but lot of run down areas too. More so than ireland

Pubs and restaurants are quite different atmosphere wise to here

And yea social interactions with people are different - as you say they are more reserved more indirect and lot of fake polite small talk

Complaining about things is a National hobby.

The class system is very real over there. Less so here.

There’s more inequality over there for sure.

I met and made some great friends. Some really sound people who I’m still in touch with.

On other hand I also met plenty of idiots - the anti irish “banter” consists of stuff like saying po-ta-to repeatedly when some randomer hears an Irish accent.

Had a few “paddy” comments over the years too.

I’m well aware British people get some insults etc here too.

In general though they are more reserved and unfriendly compared to here but I always remind myself they have 10 times the population so can’t really be compared like with like

I lived in Birmingham for 13 years. A lot of people don't like the city because of how it looks but i grew to like the place after a while and it has certainly improved over the years. Outside of London (maybe Edinburgh) Birmingham is as good as any British city gets. A lot of them are awful.

McGinniesta

AlphabetCards wrote: »

I'd actually say that Ireland and India - former colonial countries in general - hold on to the class system more than England do. You just haven't met the true aristocracy of Ireland.



London is abysmal, the anonymity drove me insane. Every friendship or relationship there is either work-related, or transient. Many people make friends there but I have noticed that most of the relationships surround the joint effort of going to pubs after work before grabbing the tube home.

Anonymity isn't the same as loneliness though.

Anonymity can suit some people. Introverts mainly.

Excess loneliness can drive people insane.

SharpshooterTom

eddie wrote: »

Not wishing to start a row or anything but I find the "Northern Irish" to be equally alien and quick to rise to the bait and probably a lot more culturally different than the English . I am amazed to hear NI people described as "Irish" as if they were culturally like "southern Irish" - when they could not be more different.. going to be an interesting few years when the national issue is looked at and apart from the gigantic financial cost for the Republic and cultuiral clash with the NI of both denominations and the "southern Irish" it will certainly be interesting.. to see how we can integrate the likes of "protesters" we have seen on the news this last few weeks..

Eddie

There is no "Northern Irish" identity. Northern Ireland is two societies and two cultures still largely segregated along ethnic lines.

North Down with its 85%+ protestant population, has a very quintessential British feel and is very different in many ways to rural culchie Tyrone, which lives and breaths GAA.

You could make a case that the Native Ulster Irish population has its own distinct identity in many ways from say Irish culture in Leinster/Munster/Connaught etc. But it is Irish culture nonetheless and isn't identical to Orange culture which descendants from the Ulster plantations take pride in.

Yyhhuuu

Another poster said there is no class distinction in Ireland but there is and It's called working class and middle class.

McGinniesta

McGinniesta wrote: »

Anonymity isn't the same as loneliness though.

Anonymity can suit some people. Introverts mainly.

Excess loneliness can drive people insane.

I worked with a woman who did her masters in London. She grew up in a small village in the west Cork/Kerry area and absolutely loved the anonymity. The fact she could talk to a guy in a pub without the entire village knowing about it the next day was heaven to her.

Ten of Swords

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I despise all nordies, doesn't matter to me if they're nationalist , unionist, cat, prod. They're a horrendous shower of filth.

Take 24 hours away from After Hours and do not post in this thread on your return

Edgware

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

There is no "Northern Irish" identity. Northern Ireland is two societies and two cultures still largely segregated along ethnic lines.

North Down with its 85%+ protestant population, has a very quintessential British feel and is very different in many ways to rural culchie Tyrone, which lives and breaths GAA.

You could make a case that the Native Ulster Irish population has its own distinct identity in many ways from say Irish culture in Leinster/Munster/Connaught etc. But it is Irish culture nonetheless and isn't identical to Orange culture which descendants from the Ulster plantations take pride in.

I recall driving around Banbridge and remarking that I might as well be in Tunbridge Wells. Hedges were cut, lawns trimmed to the inch.
A lot of the English cities are moving out from being big heavy industrial sites to a more modern style of architecture but still have the remnants of big working class areas. Certain areas of Belfast such as the Falls area, Shankill are not in great shape but then move across to South Belfast and there are areas straight out of Homes and Gardens.

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

By that logic may as well call the British Americans or New Zealander’s Aussie’s or Austrians Germans.

This is exactly my point they have a shared heritage and culture, Both examples you give were founded in a similar manner and speak the same language,

They are not likely to view each other as 'foreign' in the true sense of the word.

murpho999

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

Another poster said there is no class distinction in Ireland but there is and It's called working class and middle class.

That’s different as it’s a socio-economic distinction that Is meaning less and less nowadays as people become more educated and earn more money and do jobs that would have been beyond them generations ago.
I think those classes are now starting to merge into one and there will be less distinction in 30 to 50 year’s time.

The difference with England is that they still have a ruling Upper Class which is not the case here.
How many Prime Ministers of UK went to Eton and other schools?
How many “working class” Prime Ministers have there been when you look at Ireland had Bertie Ahern , Brian Cowen or even Enda Kenny as Taoiseach here?
Look at the house of lords and the blatant class system in operation there. People born into an upper-class family with an automatic right to a peerage and a say in the running of the country and British people tolerate that?
Nothing like that in Ireland and that’s one of the many reasons why I feel we’re very different and not that we watch same TV or football etc as many here say.

murpho999

murpho999 wrote: »

That’s different as it’s a socio-economic distinction that Is meaning less and less nowadays as people become more educated and earn more money and do jobs that would have been beyond them generations ago.
I think those classes are now starting to merge into one and there will be less distinction in 30 to 50 year’s time.

The difference with England is that they still have a ruling Upper Class which is not the case here.
How many Prime Ministers of UK went to Eton and other schools?
How many “working class” Prime Ministers have there been when you look at Ireland had Bertie Ahern , Brian Cowen or even Enda Kenny as Taoiseach here?
Look at the house of lords and the blatant class system in operation there. People born into an upper-class family with an automatic right to a peerage and a say in the running of the country and British people tolerate that?
Nothing like that in Ireland and that’s one of the many reasons why I feel we’re very different and not that we watch same TV or football etc as many here say.

this might come as a bit of a shock to you, but it is now 2021

Yyhhuuu

murpho999 wrote: »

That’s different as it’s a socio-economic distinction that Is meaning less and less nowadays as people become more educated and earn more money and do jobs that would have been beyond them generations ago.
I think those classes are now starting to merge into one and there will be less distinction in 30 to 50 year’s time.

The difference with England is that they still have a ruling Upper Class which is not the case here.
How many Prime Ministers of UK went to Eton and other schools?
How many “working class” Prime Ministers have there been when you look at Ireland had Bertie Ahern , Brian Cowen or even Enda Kenny as Taoiseach here?
Look at the house of lords and the blatant class system in operation there. People born into an upper-class family with an automatic right to a peerage and a say in the running of the country and British people tolerate that?
Nothing like that in Ireland and that’s one of the many reasons why I feel we’re very different and not that we watch same TV or football etc as many here say.

The difference in Ireland is the absence of an upper class or Aristocracy or landed Aristocrat. The British House of Lords is no longer exclusively represented by hereditary class peerage. Social mobility, which you alluded to, is also a facet of life in the U.K. There are many unelected representatives in Seanad Éireann.

iffandonlyif

I think in Ireland we delude ourselves in thinking we are intimately familiar with England from watching its TV and reading its news. There's so much subtlety to a society and its culture that isn't conveyed in through its news and entertainment media. In a way it's preposterous to imply, as OP's question does, that that the country we are so keen to distance ourselves from isn't as familiar as might be expected.

Yyhhuuu

Yyhhuuu wrote: »

The difference in Ireland is the absence of an upper class or Aristocracy or landed Aristocrat. The British House of Lords is no longer exclusively represented by hereditary class peerage. Social mobility, which you alluded to, is also a facet of life in the U.K. There are many unelected representatives in Seanad Éireann.

There is a lot made about Eton Prime Ministers, but there have been two in the last fifty years, along with the daughter of a greengrocer, the son of a circus performer and two that were the son or daughter of a vicar.

gormdubhgorm

Aegir wrote: »

There is a lot made about Eton Prime Ministers, but there have been two in the last fifty years, along with the daughter of a greengrocer, the son of a circus performer and two that were the son or daughter of a vicar.

Some Irish people do not want to hear that though as it does not fit the 'Republican' narrative. English people can't be made to be seen 'like us'.

So the narrative of 'Toffs' etc is thrown out, ignoring the majority of backgrounds English people come from.

I can understand why it would make certain Irish people uncomfortable, at the realisation.

Sleepy

It's such a diverse country that I'm not sure you can even say there's a pervasive "English" identity and tbh, I rather like that: homogeneity is boring. London is more of a global city than an "English" one and, outside of some of the ghettos British voters seem happy to ignore while voting for a buffoon with a silly haircut, it's an amazing place. There's a great freedom that comes with the anonymity of a city of it's size and being a global cultural melting pot, the breadth of choice on offer when it comes to music, dining, the arts, even dating is fantastic. Wouldn't fancy raising kids there (as referenced frequently on this thread, the standard of the state-funded education system there is deplorable: even in good schools the focus on specialisation from such a young age results in highly educated people who are ignorant of the world at large) but I do wish I'd spent a few years living there in my early twenties.

I've worked all over the UK for most of my career from the Highlands to Plymouth and Maidstone to Derry and to be honest, I'd feel more foreign in Belfast than anywhere else I've been (the Isle of Skye would be a close second and possibly only because I spent less time there). For those saying thee South of England is less friendly I'm not so sure I'd agree. I've had memorable nights in village pubs in places like Saffron Walden (ran out of smokes while working in the Wellcome Trust and the barman threw his tobacco pouch on the bar in front of me and told me to help myself for the night), Shere (stayed in rooms over a pub there for a couple of weeks in December a few years back and ended up tending bar by the Wednesday night, subbing in on the darts team the following week and being sent home with selection boxes for my kids!). Northerners are certainly louder and faster to start a conversation with a stranger but if you're looking for company for the evening you can usually find it in pubs in most parts of the UK if you avoid the likes of Wetherspoons, All Bar One, O' Neills etc.

Hamsterchops

Seeing as you mentioned JD Wetherspoons, I love the Real Ale on tap, great seasonal/guest selection of beers

Nice food too, not pricy.

Sleepy

Oh, nothing wrong with a Wetherspoons and I love the real ale selection (and guest crafts they often have at a reasonable price) but it's a place to go with people you already know rather than somewhere you'll get an evening going just by chatting to the barman while perched at the bar...

maninasia

Celchick wrote: »

Can be very different in some ways indeed for somewhere so close. Way of life pretty much the same overall, but intricacies therein can be nothing alike.

Food is a big one in my opinion. A good quality but affordable restaurant/cafe is so much easier to find here.

Agreed . I think it is because they have so many chains pubs and restaurants and those chains use frozen food.

maninasia

bubblypop wrote: »

The way you describe English people is exactly how I would describe Irish people.
The North of England is the opposite, I think you need to travel more over there.
Even shops stay open late in some cities

Do I find it foreign? No. Is it different to Ireland? Yep

Yes Irish people are also extremely indirect. We don't like giving offense or complaining directly.

maninasia

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I marked 10 years of living here last month and, yes, it has always felt like a foreign country to me. There's a lot of cultural overlap but I've always felt foreign here which is to be expected.

Having lived in Asia for years and then visiting Manchester occasionally I found it very comfortable , familiar including the people I met there. I think I could just as easily live in Manchester than in Dublin. Plus it's cheaper. Turn on the telly and watch good morning Britain. The same kind of humour...the curryhouses and the pubs. Overall there's a really small gap. Tonnes of people with Irish heritage.

They have more diversity there but Ireland is also rapidly becoming more diverse . I've worked with English and Welsh and it's mostly been a blast. I can't even remember one racist comment I guess I've been lucky to work with great folks.

London is a megacity so the comparison doesn't really play well with anywhere in Ireland.

One little known fact is the vast wealth and land that the gentry /aristrocratic families still hold in the UK. I believe they own over 1/3 of the land and still own swathes of London and other cities. They maintain their wealth through trust funds and companies ,and many of them can trace these holdings back five hundred years or more.

Yea, 1% of them own 50%. It's not a subject you will see discussed much there !


https://www.lovemoney.com/news/84194/who-owns-englands-land-ownership-biggest-owners

gormdubhgorm

maninasia wrote: »

Yes Irish people are also extremely indirect. We don't like giving offense or complaining directly.

Except instead of calling it a 'stiff upper lip' or 'muddling through' 'quite alright' as the English say.

The Irish way is called 'taking the harm out of it'. 'I'm grand' etc

I find down the country in Ireland. Their way is to literally minimise any problem. With one simple phrase 'a small biteen'.

Example:

Me: 'Is yer man an alcoholic, do you think?'

Country Cousin: 'A small biteen'

--

However, when all is said and done the two methods English/Irish have similar results.

Yyhhuuu

maninasia wrote: »

Having lived in Asia for years and then visiting Manchester occasionally I found it very comfortable , familiar including the people I met there. I think I could just as easily live in Manchester than in Dublin. Plus it's cheaper. Turn on the telly and watch good morning Britain. The same kind of humour...the curryhouses and the pubs. Overall there's a really small gap. Tonnes of people with Irish heritage.

They have more diversity there but Ireland is also rapidly becoming more diverse . I've worked with English and Welsh and it's mostly been a blast. I can't even remember one racist comment I guess I've been lucky to work with great folks.

London is a megacity so the comparison doesn't really play well with anywhere in Ireland.

One little known fact is the vast wealth and land that the gentry /aristrocratic families still hold in the UK. I believe they own over 1/3 of the land and still own swathes of London and other cities. They maintain their wealth through trust funds and companies ,and many of them can trace these holdings back five hundred years or more.

Yea, 1% of them own 50%. It's not a subject you will see discussed much there !


https://www.lovemoney.com/news/84194/who-owns-englands-land-ownership-biggest-owners

Like the Duke of Bedford who owns virtually all of Bloomsbury/ Fitzrovia. This is a beautiful area of central London with its Georgian Squares and townhouses in pristine condition. I studied at U.C.L. on nearby Gower Street.




I think it may be the Cavendish Estate which owns areas like Marylebone. I think the Grosvenor Estate is one of the largest owning swathes of properties.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

McGinniesta wrote: »

I lived in Birmingham for 13 years. A lot of people don't like the city because of how it looks but i grew to like the place after a while and it has certainly improved over the years. Outside of London (maybe Edinburgh) Birmingham is as good as any British city gets. A lot of them are awful.

I had a few hours to kill before a flight out of Birmingham airport and took a bit of a walk around the city centre, I don't know what I was expecting but always got the impression from English media or people I knew that it was a bit of a dump. I was well impressed with a lot of it, there has clearly been a lot of work done around regenerating the place, particularly around the Broad Street and New Street areas. One of the nicer cities I've been to in the UK.

FrankN1

Edinburgh is a lovely spot.

Hamsterchops

.... in Scotland.