Here we go again

dto001

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/call-to-end-year-round-open-season-on-wood-pigeon-as-hunters-abusingrules-40274467.html

cookimonster

This so called journalist, Caroline O’Doherty, needs to start properly citing the information she uses to falsely accuse people of crimes and wrong doings-

It says some hunters are deliberately planting crops to lure wood pigeons for shooting, shooting on lands where they have no permission, and harming other wildlife.

Three parts that are interesting in the above qoute.

1. The 'deliberate planting of crops', would that be 'game crops' as planted by gun clubs for the benefit of realised game birds, that also benefit wild birds. But certainly the time, effort and cost of such an exercise is not for the benefit of pigeon shooting.

2. 'on lands where they have no permission' ..... ohh wait, the local gun club is sneaking onto private property and planting crops that pigeons like to eat.

3. 'harming other wildlife'.... if a crime is being committed then deal with it, don't tar everyone with the same accusations.
This same clap trap is repeated again in the article.

She addresses whether there is a need for control during the summer months. What about spring plantings, rapeseed is still being attacked at the moment, doesn't mention corvid damage to young plants. What about ripening grain crops that are vulnerable to bird attack, not to mention laid crops not ready for harvesting but perfect for birds to consume. Weather conditions delaying harvesting while birds lay waste to the crop. Does she realise the unwieldy process that a section 42 entails and the amount of damage that will occur while the process is undertaken.

Cass

NPWS are severely underfunded and cannot carry put population checks or controls on Deer, Foxes, Hares, Rabbits, Badgers, Wood Pigeon and any other species. They rely on hunters and other groups to give them this information and make assumptions based on those numbers. They say the Agri-Ecology Unit compiled an assessment so where did their numbers come from? How large was the study, what areas were included, and where can this be found?

That being said the bit about the Minister reversing her ban on derogation last year due to pressure from farming groups and hunting clubs in itself contradicts the assumption they cause no damage. The article says the NPWS say that Pigeon numbers are healthy so reading between the lines they want to prohibit the shooting of other birds such as the stock Dove by banning all derogation? That is the same nonsense as was tried before by the so called sports coalition when they sought a ban on night hunting to prevent deer poaching.

There is also a, in my opinion, libelous statement in that article saying hunting clubs are planting crops to lure wood pigeon in as well as being guilty of armed trespass and "harming" other wildlife. Unless they have documented evidence that this is a national occurrence, and not an assumption based on supposition or a few isolated incidents then that is a harmful and as said libelous statement. Its times like this I think we should take action as they did in Germany regarding media/groups or individuals making such claims.

Lastly the "unregulated" bit is an outright lie. Firearms are licensed, the seasons are regulated (as per the article itself) and derogation is a suspension of the law which also shows regulation. The need for permission to be on lands is enshrined in law, hence regulated and the need to obey the conditions of your license, the firearms acts (all 19 of them) and the wildlife acts would easily show that statement to be a falsehood.

I will say that my opinions above are based on personal experience and knowledge and i have no studies to use as support but then again i'm not making any assumptions or inflammatory statements which are derogatory towards the hunting and farming community.

Cass

Farcical.

From the same author, Coillte to continue to clear woodland regardless of impact on nesting birds. Not to mention if you cut your hedge anytime up to the end of August you'll face a fine.

Perhaps the NPWS should look inward before making slanderous statements against the hunting community.

Capercaillie

A lot of inaccuracies in the article like gun clubs specifically planting game crops to lure wood pigeon in to shoot them. One valid point though is that stock dove are at risk of being shot when woodpigeon are being shot during breeding season.

dto001

I hope there will be some form of statement by the various groups. And I would love if an actual case was brought to stop this rubbish appearing again

mcbain087

The minister may cause a huge upset to the farming community by possibly not declaring a derogation on woodpigeons.
His argument is that woodies do not damage growing crops and only feed on spilled grain after harvesting.
When the general licences were revoked and subsequently reinstated in the UK the arable farmers posted videos of crops ravaged literally after the grain sprouted but our new animal activist minister obviously has blinkers on in order to upset farmers and the hunting community.
We need to be prepared again this year to fight back otherwise we will lose all rights to various types of shooting and hunting. Already the ban lead debacle is going against us, where will it all end?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/call-to-end-year-round-open-season-on-wood-pigeon-as-hunters-abusingrules-40274467.html

Feisar

In fairness the IFA have a fair bit of clout. If the minister pisses them off he won’t be long in getting his horns reined in.

Vizzy

"The NPWS assessment was prepared by its Agri-Ecology Unit and cites studies that show cereal grains only become the wood pigeon’s preferred food choice post-harvest when the fields are in stubble and grains from ‘harvest spillage’ are left behind".

I wonder if the NPWS told this to the pigeons:D


I checked the Farming forum earlier and this issue doesn't seem to be being discussed.

berettaman

cookimonster wrote: »

This so called journalist, Caroline O’Doherty, needs to start properly citing the information she uses to falsely accuse people of crimes and wrong doings-



Three parts that are interesting in the above qoute.

1. The 'deliberate planting of crops', would that be 'game crops' as planted by gun clubs for the benefit of realised game birds, that also benefit wild birds. But certainly the time, effort and cost of such an exercise is not for the benefit of pigeon shooting.

2. 'on lands where they have no permission' ..... ohh wait, the local gun club is sneaking onto private property and planting crops that pigeons like to eat.

3. 'harming other wildlife'.... if a crime is being committed then deal with it, don't tar everyone with the same accusations.
This same clap trap is repeated again in the article.

She addresses whether there is a need for control during the summer months. What about spring plantings, rapeseed is still being attacked at the moment, doesn't mention corvid damage to young plants. What about ripening grain crops that are vulnerable to bird attack, not to mention laid crops not ready for harvesting but perfect for birds to consume. Weather conditions delaying harvesting while birds lay waste to the crop. Does she realise the unwieldy process that a section 42 entails and the amount of damage that will occur while the process is undertaken.

Amazing the absolute excrement that passes as journalism these days.
This will be seized upon by the usual numpties to meddle.
NARGC and IFA have already briefed the relevant authorities not to go messing with this after last years disaster. Well here we go again with this Government.
I am sick to death of having to contact my politician to ask that my rights NOT be trampled.
A law abiding tax paying citizen is treated like crap because his sport involves hunting and shooting.

tudderone

berettaman wrote: »

Amazing the absolute excrement that passes as journalism these days.

100%, Absolutely dire badly researched, biased muck. But i expect no less from that rag.

Grizzly 45

Ok ,well this is now time for "robust responses" from all organisations to both miss O Doherty and the MSM in general and to the NPWS "agri ecology unit"
First step should be from both orgs and individuals,multiple freedom of information act requests on the following topics;

Who is the NPWS "Agri ecology unit?" what is its function?" the personnel academic qualifications? The cost of this unit PA to NPWS?
As this report is making some serious allegations;

Evidence of these events,as they are violations both of the wildlife act 1976/2001.Are NPWS considering or have passed this information onto AGS to start criminal proceedings against individuals/clubs?

Is it an actual crime to plant game crops to lure in-game under Irish law? If so please point out the relevant passage in relevant acts?

Then collate the responses to see what they [1] refuse to answer [2] fudge in answers [3] outright lie about and then publish our own hatchet piece on NPWS.
I theorise there are a bunch of antis in this unit trying to throw their weight about again his year. The best way to deal with this shower is to expose them by a bit of genuine detective work and media exposure to show we won take their bull manure lying down.

Grizzly 45

codoherty@independent.ie

https://ie.linkedin.com/in/caroline-o-doherty-4949895bIf you would care to put a polite and rational response to her article?


How to make a FOIA request...
They might throw it back and refuse any divulgence as it is ongoing...in that case ask for the information on 2020,as it will proably be the same sort of BS reasoning.

https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/how-do-i-make-an-foi-request/

dto001

You could bring it further than just the journalist which will probably just be sent to the junk folder. If every one sent one in it might force them to print an apology

https://www.presscouncil.ie/office-of-the-press-ombudsman-164/online-complaint-form

https://www.presscouncil.ie/code-of-practice

cavan shooter

When this was flagged last year to the shooting community the response was laissez-faire to say the least. Similirily with the lead ban, review of NPWS and talk about woodcock coming of the open seasons order and the shortening of the hunting seasons to a calender year.

cookimonster

Last years feck up was based on a report the NPWS used. As far as I could fathom, from a quick read of it, a lot of the information they were using was mainland European based dealing with thier interaction with birds and agriculture.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, I strongly suspect that most of this report is based on desk top research and very little practical exploration and on top of that they are utilising inaccurate data.

J.R.

The study is not listed here with their other Agri-Ecology Projects

https://www.npws.ie/agri-ecology-projects

Vizzy

I agree with you cookimonster.


I also believe( maybe naively) that the NPWS report does not actually say what is reported in the paper - Journalistic licence and all that.


Just from my own experience with the local NPWS ranger, he is very pragmatic in relation for the need for derogations to deal with pests etc.
I would hope that the other rangers would be similar and they would certainly know the position regarding pigeons damaging standing crops, as the ranger is really the eyes and ears for the NPWS.
I have no idea who this "agri ecology unit" is or what they do, but surely they must have at least spoken to the ranger "side of the house" before they finalised such a report?

J.R.

dto001 wrote: »

I hope there will be some form of statement by the various groups. And I would love if an actual case was brought to stop this rubbish appearing again

NARGC sent in a very comprehensive 25 page submission to the NPWS Consultation on Derogations 2021 / 2022 in Jan. 2021 which included lots of photos of the damage done to crops.

Grizzly 45

J.R. wrote: »

The study is not listed here with their other Agri-Ecology Projects

https://www.npws.ie/agri-ecology-projects

Well,that's good news....f course they might hurry now and update the website with somthing that has been used as an office door stopper for the last year or so to CYA.However, having this info now gives us a foot hold to challenge them openly on this.


Contact details of this unit... Members of the Scientific Unit can be contacted by e-mail at Agri.ecology@chg.gov.ie or by phone at (01) 888 3255.

https://www.npws.ie/research-projects/agri-ecology-research

Fill their in box folks.

berettaman

cavan shooter wrote: »

When this was flagged last year to the shooting community the response was laissez-faire to say the least. Similirily with the lead ban, review of NPWS and talk about woodcock coming of the open seasons order and the shortening of the hunting seasons to a calender year.

Flagged where man?


My brother in law works with a lad married to a NPWS office person. Says, this is the thin end of the wedge, there are a list of species that will be off limits in a few years.
Some folks were abusing the current set up allegedly. That's fine, deal with them.

You can not confiscate all cars because some yoke decides to do doughnuts at the crossroad on weekends.:mad:

berettaman

cookimonster wrote: »

Last years feck up was based on a report the NPWS used. As far as I could fathom, from a quick read of it, a lot of the information they were using was mainland European based dealing with thier interaction with birds and agriculture.
I said it last year and I'll say it again, I strongly suspect that most of this report is based on desk top research and very little practical exploration and on top of that they are utilising inaccurate data.

Spot on. Also beware our political reps.
It is obvious at this stage that FF/FG will let the Greens fillet the countryside and give them funds to do more damage as long as they get to cling to power.
Coursing/greyhound racing, hunting, shooting, farming, they don't care what they have to throw in front of the green bus to keep in power.
There will be a lot of damage done before we can change Government.

Grizzly 45

berettaman wrote: »

Flagged where man?


My brother in law works with a lad married to a NPWS office person. Says, this is the thin end of the wedge, there are a list of species that will be off limits in a few years.
Some folks were abusing the current set up allegedly. That's fine, deal with them.

You can not confiscate all cars because some yoke decides to do doughnuts at the crossroad on weekends.:mad:

Not a word you want to hear or use if you are going to go pillorying groups with your agenda.Either provide facts in a court of law or FO for your selves.

tudderone

berettaman wrote: »

Spot on. Also beware our political reps.
It is obvious at this stage that FF/FG will let the Greens fillet the countryside and give them funds to do more damage as long as they get to cling to power.
Coursing/greyhound racing, hunting, shooting, farming, they don't care what they have to throw in front of the green bus to keep in power.
There will be a lot of damage done before we can change Government.

The greens are a bunch of upper middle class, dublin 4, guardian readers who know sfa about the countryside. Its all "Feelings" with them, not facts and realities. The world has been turned upside down.

berettaman

tudderone wrote: »

The greens are a bunch of upper middle class, dublin 4, guardian readers who know sfa about the countryside. Its all "Feelings" with them, not facts and realities. The world has been turned upside down.

Absolutely. I happened on a couple of lads counting grouse on the Blackstairs one day. High viz and a clipboard. Confidently told me there was no grouse.
That's not how I count them I said. When I told them my methodology was to point a red setter into the breeze and let him off they were not impressed. two Dublin residents.:rolleyes:
Anyway, Greens idiotic numpties that know SFA about the country.. yes.
They are however very dangerous as they have their hands on the levers of power and can implement their stupid notions.

FF/FG will let them do anything to cling to power.

Birdnuts

Vizzy wrote: »

Just from my own experience with the local NPWS ranger, he is very pragmatic in relation for the need for derogations to deal with pests etc.
?

That would be my experience too - the real problems in the NPWS are higher up the foodchain and I've made a number of submissions on behalf of myself and conservation projects I work on to highlight that fact during the recent "consultation" launched by the parent department as part of the major review of the organisation announced late last year.

berettaman

Birdnuts wrote: »

That would be my experience too - the real problems in the NPWS are higher up the foodchain and I've made a number of submissions on behalf of myself and conservation projects I work on to highlight that fact during the recent "consultation" launched by the parent department as part of the major review of the organisation announced late last year.

I think there is some truth to that. The "man on the ground" often has to implement policy that he was never consulted on in the first place. This happens in all branches of Government.

Somewhere up the food chain there are some folks with an agenda and they do not have interests of farmers/hunters/country people at heart.

Grizzly 45

Apparently,and unconfirmed as of yet,this unit of NPWS has a few Birdwatch Ireland members in it...So that will probably explain this affair for last and this year. People with an agenda alright.

Zxthinger

What are they offering.. nothing!! Nothing but extra constraints based on BS..

I wouldn't mind if there was open seasons on government land and they were practicing some form of stewardship.. but these ill guided policies are going to cause trouble..

Dai John

I see a lot of videos on youtube about pigeon shooting of big numbers. I myself have been shooting pigeons for over 60 years. How many millions have been shot, and still there are plenty of them out there. What would have happened without control ? What wouild be the price of a loaf of bread or a pint of beer ? We have all seen flocks descend on fields of corn before harvest especially after the rain has flattened the crop. Where do these people get their ideas from? Chris Patterson ?

Grizzly 45

I hope someone is out with a camera recording the devastation on Spring crops in Ireland by WP and corvids in these weeks to give visual proof and that we can refute one of NPWS points about this.;)

dto001

Heres more of it !!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/irish-birds-more-endangered-than-ever-before-report-finds-1.4537657


"The kestrel, previously very common in the Irish countryside and easily recognised due to its characteristic hovering flight, is in decline because changes in land use and farming practices have affected their prey. Illegal shooting and poisoning, as well as secondary poisoning, have also caused the kestrel population to decline."

I'd love to know where all the evidence is that illegal shooting is causing the decline in kestrels.

Is there really no way to stop papers printing this crap without evidence to back it up??

otmmyboy2

dto001 wrote: »

Heres more of it !!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/irish-birds-more-endangered-than-ever-before-report-finds-1.4537657


"The kestrel, previously very common in the Irish countryside and easily recognised due to its characteristic hovering flight, is in decline because changes in land use and farming practices have affected their prey. Illegal shooting and poisoning, as well as secondary poisoning, have also caused the kestrel population to decline."

I'd love to know where all the evidence is that illegal shooting is causing the decline in kestrels.

Is there really no way to stop papers printing this crap without evidence to back it up??

Thr birdwatch report itself for those curious:
https://birdwatchireland.ie/irish-birds-are-faring-worse-than-ever-before/

I'd be interested in how they got to their shooting conclusions too.

Rows Grower

I just typed in "Kestrel shot Ireland" and this was the story at the top of the page...

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/enniscorthyguardian/news/inquiry-into-shooting-of-barntown-kestrel-39823247.html

tudderone

dto001 wrote: »

Heres more of it !!!!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/irish-birds-more-endangered-than-ever-before-report-finds-1.4537657


"The kestrel, previously very common in the Irish countryside and easily recognised due to its characteristic hovering flight, is in decline because changes in land use and farming practices have affected their prey. Illegal shooting and poisoning, as well as secondary poisoning, have also caused the kestrel population to decline."

I'd love to know where all the evidence is that illegal shooting is causing the decline in kestrels.

Is there really no way to stop papers printing this crap without evidence to back it up??

Its copy and paste journalism.

solarwinds

If any other organisation in Ireland had the crap wrote about them that we do, there would be a swift response from their legal eagles refuting the unfounded and inaccurate statements being printed as fact.
It would be nice if we had the same clout and a retraction printed, but I would imagine an expert would be dug out of somewhere to quote some study in Greenland that proves their point.

solarwinds

Tis a hell of a coincidence all these stories are coming out in the last week or so, the public being drip fed all this negative crap of "hunters planting crops to lure birds just to kill them" and now "hunters shooting birds of prey" and being the sole reason for a supposed decline in numbers.
It smell to me as if someone is doing a hatchet job on us and there is no rebuff to their defamatory comments.

berettaman

solarwinds wrote: »

Tis a hell of a coincidence all these stories are coming out in the last week or so, the public being drip fed all this negative crap of "hunters planting crops to lure birds just to kill them" and now "hunters shooting birds of prey" and being the sole reason for a supposed decline in numbers.
It smell to me as if someone is doing a hatchet job on us and there is no rebuff to their defamatory comments.

This is spot on. They are laying the ground work..

delboythedub

paper will never refuse ink. end

Capercaillie

solarwinds wrote: »

Tis a hell of a coincidence all these stories are coming out in the last week or so, the public being drip fed all this negative crap of "hunters planting crops to lure birds just to kill them" and now "hunters shooting birds of prey" and being the sole reason for a supposed decline in numbers.
It smell to me as if someone is doing a hatchet job on us and there is no rebuff to their defamatory comments.

Nobody has said that hunters the sole reason for decline in birds of prey , I presume you mean kestrel.

tudderone

Capercaillie wrote: »

Nobody has said that hunters the sole reason for decline in birds of prey , I presume you mean kestrel.

Oh god no, but there have been plenty of lies, slights, half truths, twisted truths, propaganda etc about it. A nod and a wink journalism.

Rows Grower

tudderone wrote: »

Oh god no, but there have been plenty of lies, slights, half truths, twisted truths, propaganda etc about it. A nod and a wink journalism.

Where?

Traumadoc

Rows Grower wrote: »

Where?

I presume articles like this:

Wildlife crime unit promised as hundreds of birds of prey shot and poisoned

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/wildlife-crime-unit-promised-as-hundreds-of-birds-of-prey-shot-and-poisoned-39653683.html


There are factually incorrect figures in the article:eg "While an average of 16.5 illegal incidents were detected each month over the 12 years,"

There is also the spin: the headline could have said Hundreds of birds of prey killed by windturbines and poisoning. or Very few birds of prey are found shot.

Bog Trotter99

Put this one up to show the truth about what damage some birds do. The ends quite interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaMa1WHZOUs