Schools and Covid 19 (part 5) **Mod warnings in OP**

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925624#Comment_117925624

That is all not disputable on meningitis but that was not the point. The point that remains missed is that suddenly people who never previously questioned any other addition or change (vaccines brands in the schedule change all the time) suddenly don’t trust the exact same process that got all the other vaccines included based on nothing. If the vaccine benefit is demonstrated it will be approved. And to me the benefit of the Covid vaccine in children, if it is judged appropriate, is in commencing the process of having a level of resistance for life against a virus that will remain with us forever. And engendering that resistance in a controlled manner through a safe and effective vaccine is far less risky than uncontrolled infection, even if that risk itself is low.

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925854#Comment_117925854

And thats the benefit to you, great get your kids vaccinated as soon as possible. Im not telling anyone else to not vaccinate their child, mine will benefit from the herd immunity and the data of vaccinated children will determin if they get vaccinated themselves.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925879#Comment_117925879

It all goes back to the original post that triggered this divergence. The baseless opinion that there is an effort to coerce parents into vaccinating kids with a less than dosage vaccine when in fact if it becomes part of the schedule for primary school age kids or younger it will do so in the same manner as all those never questioned. You are looking for years of data which you don’t know if it existed or not for all of the other vaccines that did not have the same publicity that you never even gave a second thought to.

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925928#Comment_117925928

I did know they existed. I got them, my cousins friends siblings aunts uncles nieces nephews all got them. No whether my great great grandmother checked the safety of the vaccine she first allowed her child to have is absolutely irrelevant because im not her. I have the data for the childhood vaccines based on everyone i know having them. Im now in the position of being the 1st generation of parents letting their children be vaccinated with a new vaccine and Im choosing to wait.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117925988#Comment_117925988

So the vaccine schedule today is the exact same as when you were a kid and does not include new vaccines or ones that have changed?

And you claim to be basing your view on data. Laughable really

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926027#Comment_117926027

No obiously it has changed but many many many other prople i know their kids have gotten them. Mine were never ever the 1st lot of children to get them before now.

Vaccinated30

The newest vaccine my children got was 4 years old, millions of children had recieved it before mine did. That is not the same as the covid vaccine.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926236#Comment_117926236

So you know if your kids got the GSK or the MSD mmr vaccine? You know that they got the same one as a baby as at 5? You know that no new versions were released to market just prior to your children receiving them? You reviewed all the safety data at each stage? And you know the same for all others on the schedule. I am sure when the 6-in-1 replaced the 5-in1 just over 10 years ago you would have been waiting a couple of years for more data if your kids were around at the time or a least looking for the data for years previously if used elsewhere?

The reality is the we hear so much about Covid that we all think our own opinions are equally valid to those who actually understand what they are talking about, and cling to those opinions as a crutch against uncertainty, trying to hold on to a semblance of control in a world were a unseen organism has undone the previous certainty that existed in our lives.

But enough on vaccines in the wrong thread. It gets me though that every thread is now full of subtle anti vaccine messages being spread by otherwise pro vaccine individuals who have been hoodwinked by deliberate divisive messaging

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926483#Comment_117926483

I have not been hoodwinked by anything and you are being awfully patronising by saying so.

Im a parent who is making a decision based on the information i have.

Just as much as i wont let a new neighbour babysit them but i would let one that i know 18 months babysit them. Either option could result in a terrible consequence but i base my decision on the here and now.

History Queen

I'm really surprised that they are halting contact tracing in primary schools. I completely understand that the current model is causing massive educational disruption and change was needed but I'm so surprised they've gone this way. It just seems to contradict everything that's been hammered in to us about the importance of stopping the spread.

Also hard to understand how a child has to isolate if they are a close contact of their brother, but not if they are a close contact of the kid they sit next to at school.

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926905#Comment_117926905

Because we are not at the point we were in March 2020, stopping the spread is impossible. Also living with your brother you are with them a lot longer and a lot closer and its very diferent than in a school environment where windows are open sanitiser constantly on the go etc

It is time to move on and live our lives.

Ive just read a comment online (so take it as you will but cdc links were provided)

600 children died from covid worldwide in 18 months, whereas 2 million die every year from complications of rhinovirus, the common cold.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926952#Comment_117926952

Oh, I didn't think about it in terms of time spent together, that makes sense of they take that in to account. I don't think they do though. Obviously I used the example of a brother but it's any household contact i think so that'd include visitors etc who you wpuld have less contact with than the person you sit beside. It's just a blanket -household close contacts isolate, school ones don't.

As regards school settings, you may be surprised how limited the open windows and use of sanatiser is.

I'm selfishly going to pull my kids from childcare and test them if there is a case, regardlessof this new policy. It feels like the right thing to do in our circumstances.

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927057#Comment_117927057

The guidance is anyone who spends overnight in the house when a person was infectious, so not just visitors its quite specific. Ill find that for you and link it asap.

The self referral for testing is closing soon and it will be back to GP referral only so I do think Antigen tests are the way forward for parents who are worried.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/news/media/pressrel/hse-to-implement-changes-to-testing-and-contact-tracing-for-children-aged-over-3-months-to-under-13-years.html

A child under 13 who is not fully vaccinated, will be considered a household contact if they were present overnight in a house or residential setting while a person with COVID-19 was infectious in that house”.

Lumen

IMO at this stage of the pandemic it makes more sense to do random PCR testing (like opinion polling) than targeted testing of "symptomatic" primary school kids. This would give better data about spread.

COVID is so low risk to primary school kids that their infection (and subsequent immunity) is probably net positive in terms of controlling community transmission.

If and when vaccines are approved for the under 12s parents can make informed decisions about vaccination as an alternative to possible infection, as they are currently doing for over 12s. With no benefit for freedom of travel, and (currently) low levels of transmission in schools I'd expect the take up to be a bit lower.

I hope masks will be removed in secondary schools soon. Over the next couple of weeks most of the kids who want vaccination will be fully vaccinated.

There won't be a better time to return schools to normal.

History Queen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927109#Comment_117927109

Ah thanks for that. I had misunderstood. That does make more sense.

iamwhoiam

I think the use of antigen tests should be an alternative . Then if a child is in close contact at a table in primary school would it not make sense to test the child with an antigen test at least

I think that would be the route I would take . Or will people even be informed about a close contact in school now ?

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927057#Comment_117927057

It would be selfish if you expected everyone else including the childcare centre to adapt to your personal risk level. Taking your own steps separate from them is the opposite of selfish.

I do an antigen test on my kids any time we're visiting vulnerable people. The tests are not perfect and the relatives are vaccinated, but I figure it's an extra layer of "just in case".

shesty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117924728#Comment_117924728

Why NOT be hesitant?

There is a difference between hesitancy and querying something.I did actually query the rotavirus vaccine being given to my third -it was new on the schedule compared to my other 2 kids, and the list of quite potential side effects, and the time frame that it had to be given in to avoid some of those effects, definitely raised my eyebrows.And when told, well he could get other forms of vomiting bug anyway, it did make me wonder why we were giving him this thing that could cause a twisted gut, and was live in his nappies (exposing other people to it) for a good week after it was given since it seemed to only prevent something that could very easily be caused by other germs anyway (given how wonderfully contagious vomiting bugs are...)

In this case, I will see how this pans out.In the case of vaccinating myself, firstly it is a bit different to make a decision to vaccinate yourself with something vs taking the responsibility to decide to vaccinate your child with something.And secondly, I had the benefit of being one of the younger age groups for the Pfizer vaccine so had some time to see how it was playing out.I am not sure how that will work out for my kids in terms of a timeline.

My background is scientific, so while I do have faith in the regulatory process, I do also have a need to question amd understand these things.The one thing we cannot buy with these vaccines is time, time to see how they work out over long term, so that makes me cautious of them.That is somewhat balance by the fact that they are under a huge spotlight so I imagine the regulatory process around them will be extremely tight.But as much as anyone, I am entitled to question and decide for myself.

Lumen

FWIW if we vaccinated all primary school age children we'd get to about 85% total population vaccinated, and I'm slightly curious about what that would do to the epidemiology, but since Portugal has already reached 84% total population vaccinated (due to their older population structure) that's an experiment we don't need to do.

The answer is that Portgual's estimated reproduction rate dropped below 1.0 once they hit 73% (we're now at 73%) and continued to drop to around 0.7, so they've seen their cases steadily drop since then, without vaccinating the under 12s.

Our estimated reproduction rate is stuck around 0.9, but it looks like we're out of the woods at least until the heating season sets in, without any real case to offer vaccination to under 12s (although it would probably make teachers a bit more comfortable).

In terms of vaccine priorities the HSE seems to be focusing on young adults (e.g. in colleges) which seems eminently sensible.

Wolf359f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117928102#Comment_117928102

We'll max out a little over 75% in the end. There's about 2.5% left to get their second jabs and only about ~1800 new first doses done daily over the past week. That's only 0.25% a week. We'll be closer to Denmark, which is seeing a near exact drop in cases as Portugal, so hopefully the 73% is the magic number!

bladespin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927717#Comment_117927717

That's just not allowed, nor are you allowed query anything unless you're a doctor apparently.

Fair play btw.

shesty

I'm an engineer.I'm annoying about asking questions, wanting details and wondering why things can't be done other ways.Risk assessing stuff.That's all.

josip

My wife has a Masters in Electrical Engineering.

But I wire the plugs.

shesty

Electrical engineering is a dark art.😉

ForestFire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117929522#Comment_117929522

Do you have significant life insurance policy that you may have recently signed ;-)

Always remember, phase tester first, and back of you hand then, just to be sure to be sure.

jrosen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926905#Comment_117926905

Totally agree its nuts.

Ive just tested positive, no idea how. But now my kids have to stay home and away from school and activities simply because we live in the same house. They were due their second vaccines this weekend. How can I take the public health advice seriously?

Vaccinated30

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930375#Comment_117930375

Living in a house is nearly guranteed spread as oppose to sitting in the same class with masks on and windows open for a few hours...

Contact tracing data shows the spread in school is lessbthan household so therefore households continue with close contact rules...for now..

jrosen

Primary kids dont wear masks and not all schools have windows.

You can either catch covid sat next to someone with no mask or you cant. To say a child sat next to another child for 7 hours with no distancing, no masks is less risk to a child who happens to live in the same house makes no sense to me. Or even a work setting, according to my text today a close contact is anyone who you have spent more than 15 mins face to face with either indoor or outdoor. Spending more than 2 hours in an indoor space with someone who's positive.

Its nonsense at this stage

iamwhoiam

Personally I think close contacts in school should be priority tested . A quick turnaround with results and straight back to school if negative

Or at very least bring in antigen testing for the kids . Not ideal but surely better than nothing

shesty

This, I think they do need to re-jig the system.Test up to 48 hours after maybe, then back to school if negative.Any symptoms in the 10 days following that, re-test.Or something along those lines.

jrosen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117930553#Comment_117930553

That sounds like a better idea than what they are proposing now.

shesty

Well I don't know, but there has to be a few ways or ideas that could be used to keep some track of things without shutting classes down entirely or letting loose altogether.

Leftwaffe

I still want to know if I’ve to wear a mask whilst teaching after October 22nd? Most my colleagues are dying to keep them, love them almost. Just madness.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931594#Comment_117931594

Kids need to see your face. I’m very covid regulation compliant but so against masks around young children. One of my kids has a speech delay and the other an impediment ( very slight) and they like many other children benefit from seeing the face.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117927717#Comment_117927717

I also have a scientific background and my thinking on it is that the people who have trained and have the background and experience to make the decisions should be trusted to do so. They’ve done a good job so far. And tbh I don’t know whether they will recommend the vaccine for young children or not. It isn’t clear cut. But whatever they recommend I am likely to follow their advice because they know their stuff and I don’t.

History Queen

I wish they would still let schools/childcare know if there were cases then parents could make their own decisions. I'm a bit nervous about the fact that I won't be told if there's a case in my son's preschool now. Or indeed my class at school.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931815#Comment_117931815

I have to agree with this . Each family is different with different situations and different risk . I think they should be entitled to make up their own mind and choose to do what is best for their family

Some kids are in homes with vulnerable adults or minded by older grand parents . The parents could choose to get them tested or do an antigen test for example .

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931617#Comment_117931617

I see no harm in parents taking it slowly , asking questions , finding out about trials , getting facts and general being slightly hesitant until they are very sure about vaccinating their children

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931921#Comment_117931921

No no harm at all. But I’m just saying I put my trust in the folks whose job it is to make these recommendations.

seamus

Kind of amazing to see the "what about the children" brigade on Twitter when it comes to this contact tracing stuff.

There are a couple of scientific commentators (e.g. Staines) who have enjoyed their sudden minor celebrity through Covid, and are desperately clinging onto any thing they can to remain relevant.

Despite 12 months of evidence that viral spread in schools is low, that children are less of a vector than teens and adults, and 18 months of evidence that covid presents statistically negligible danger to children under 12, they're still trying to whip up fear into parents.

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932004#Comment_117932004

I probably would too but still like to research the benefits

Snooker Loopy

Personally if I had children of school going age I'd be doing everything humanly possible to make sure they didn't have to attend school in person at the moment - at least until they get vaccinated.

If you look at what's happening in England at the moment, Covid is rocketing among 5-14 year olds.

Claiming schools are safe at the moment is pure gaslighting.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932007#Comment_117932007

Generally I'd have a high regard for your posts, but I disagree with you here.

Has it not been established that Delta spreads among children at a similar rate to adults? Certainly I've heard Luke O'Neill say this recently.

It seems obvious to me that Covid flows most through the path of least resistance, ie. the highest unvaccinated age groups. When Delta hit, it hit those in their 20s and 30ss the most because they were largely unvaccinated at the time. Currently that highest unvaccinated age group is children of school going age.

This would tally with the massive surge of Covid in England among that age group, with 100k children out of school with confirmed or suspected Covid.

Covid may present a statistically lower risk to children, but it is not zero, and Long Covid is very much a concern. I think around 20 children a week have been dying of Covid in the US. Indonesia has had many hundreds of child deaths from Covid.

I think it's of the utmost concern that we get children of school going age vaccinated as soon as possible. Both for their own well being, the well being of the population as whole, and for children's education. The sooner children are vaccinated, the sooner disruption, uncertainty and angst about the safety of schools can end.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931617#Comment_117931617

No, no, someone who can wire a plug is the right person to setup a large facilities electrical control system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932030#Comment_117932030

Does anyone who uses the term gaslighting actually know what it means?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932080#Comment_117932080

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/long-covid-is-overblown-and-often-something-else-says-oxford-professor-x62ghkt3c

Surely we all know tons of adults and children suffering from "Long Covid".

The truth is anyone who expresses feeling anything less than perfect after covid, whether linked or not, is counted as "Long Covid". This over-counting seriously undermines those actually suffering post viral conditions after covid who are a much smaller number than the hype.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932131#Comment_117932131

I know exactly what gaslighting means, thanks. It means somebody trying to cod you that something is true when they know it isn't. It means ridicule of well founded concern.

The below graph is what is happening in England at the moment, you can see how Covid among children of school going age is rocketing.

The claim is being made by Norma Foley, Philip Nolan etc. that schools will not be a mass spreader of Covid. But look at what's happening in England. The inescapable conclusion is they are.

So how can our authorities make this claim when the evidence from England says otherwise?

Another inescapable conclusion as far as I can see is that it has effectively been decided that children of school going age should go into schools and get Covid - unvaccinated - in large numbers.

Nobody in authority here - or in the UK - will admit to that. But I cannot see how it is not the case. The ideology is "it's time for the kids to take one for the team".

That to me is indefensible.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932080#Comment_117932080

20 a week sounds a lot, but the US is a big country.

Children account for at most 0.25% of US Covid deaths.

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19-infections/children-and-covid-19-state-level-data-report/

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932161#Comment_117932161

That to me comes across as a blasé dismissal. Again, gaslighting. It's telling people "you don't have "Long Covid", you're imagining it. Bell has done some good for sure with his work on the AZ vaccine. But I don't see how he's in any position at all to dismiss what people are suffering from.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932263#Comment_117932263

It is a big country, but why would we dismiss that children are dying from Covid? And why would we dismiss illness? And why would we dismiss that having a large amount of Covid running around younger age groups has knock on effects for other age groups? Parents can catch Covid from children. Grandparents can catch it.