Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

2 of your mates are self employed tradesmen and they sat at home for 3 months claiming the PUP?

All though they were entitled to work at least in part and claim it.

Good for them.

They were only entitled to work if they were working on social housing or other exempt projects. Most did not have that luxury.

Now they can do nixers - lots did, but they werent allowed on sites.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

They were only entitled to work if they were working on social housing or other exempt projects. Most did not have that luxury.

Nope.

Certain sites were closed.

Self employed trades people were deemed essential.

Unless you think if someone suffered a burst pipe in January they had to wait until April to get it fixed?

The vast majority of construction workers never stopped working, that is not my opinion.

Captain_Crash

paw patrol wrote: »

I know I'm in a minority

Propaganda 101, make dissenters believe they’re the minority!

I’m yet to actually meet or speak to anyone (excluding this thread) who believes the level of restrictions up to now are appropriate...... not one! But on the radio and in the media you'd believe they’re a dime a dozen

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

Certain sites were closed.

Self employed trades people were deemed essential.

Unless you think if someone suffered a burst pipe in January they had to wait until April to get it fixed?

The vast majority of construction workers never stopped working, that is not my opinion.

It sure sounds like an opinion. Can you back it up with any facts?

In January as construction started to wind down, The Examiner reported

So far, as more sites close down, there are 32,150 construction industry claimants.
...
In construction, where sites started to close down last week, the number of claimants this week represents about a quarter of all people employed in the industry.

Senior economist Jim Power said he had no doubt that the overall PUP numbers will rise again in the coming weeks, as the construction industry, in particular, continues to shake out workers from those sites that must close during the current restrictions.

So you think all 32k of these are falsely claiming while still working?

ypres5

timmyntc wrote: »

It sure sounds like an opinion. Can you back it up with any facts?

In January as construction started to wind down, we had


So you think all 32k of these are falsely claiming while still working?

This is just boggles little rabbit hole he likes to lead people down. He makes this grand sweeping statement about construction and when confronted for evidence he becomes uncharacteristically evasive and plays persecuted over the span of several days. Just leave him to his daydreams about the construction industry and move on.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

It sure sounds like an opinion. Can you back it up with any facts?

In January as construction started to wind down, The Examiner reported


So you think all 32k of these are falsely claiming while still working?

Nope. Leo did make a claim to the effect last year.

But Is basic maths a fact?

150,000 construction workers in the country.

I imagine you can do the rest.

Also you were entitled to claim PUP and work.

I didn't ask the guy who serviced my boiler in March if he was on PUP TBH, didn't seem appropriate, or the chimney cleaner.

FlubberJones

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

Certain sites were closed.

Self employed trades people were deemed essential.

Unless you think if someone suffered a burst pipe in January they had to wait until April to get it fixed?

The vast majority of construction workers never stopped working, that is not my opinion.

I live right near the enormous Cherrywood construction site, one of the biggest ongoing in Ireland at the moment... not a soul touched it for the entire lockdown months after Christmas. Only returned in the last week or so, when they were given the all clear.

Boggles

FlubberJones wrote: »

I live right near the enormous Cherrywood construction site, one of the biggest ongoing in Ireland at the moment... not a soul touched it for the entire lockdown months after Christmas. Only returned in the last week or so, when they were given the all clear.

Does one swallow make a summer?

Certain sites were closed, the contention on here is there wasn't a brick laid or wiring ran since December.

It's nonsense.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

Nope. Leo did make a claim to the effect last year.

But Is basic maths a fact?

150,000 construction workers in the country.

I imagine you can do the rest.

Also you were entitled to claim PUP and work.

I didn't ask the guy who serviced my boiler in March if he was on PUP TBH, didn't seem appropriate, or the chimney cleaner.

The article states its only the tip of the iceberg and that numbers would increase.
How about this article from February:

The sectors with the highest number of people receiving PUP this week are Accommodation and Food Service activities (110,697) followed by Wholesale and Retail Trade (75,196) and Construction (61,077)

61k approx half of all workers in the sector, claiming PUP and we are to believe theyre all still working?

Pull the other one. :rolleyes:

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

61k approx half of all workers in the sector, claiming PUP and we are to believe theyre all still working?

61,000 half of 150,000?

Nope.

Again that isn't my opinion.

Also it was Tom Parlon who said large amounts of them were doing "nixers".

You'll have take it up with him.

ArthurDayne

gozunda wrote: »

Nope. You really need to stop trying to prove so many things that you end up disproving them all instead.

And yes the policy has been to minimise the rate of infection. We clearly can't do zero covid due to a range of factors already much discussed in this thread.

But what we can do and have done is minimise / keep down the rate of infection. And we can clearly see that policy has worked as overall we have had a low infection rate and deaths compared to other countries.
Could we ever reduce those figures to zeo? I somehow doubt it. You obviously think otherwise. As to your idea of a "tolerable threshold"? Why do you believe that somehow can be measured?

Do the restrictions to date justify where we are atm ? I believe they do. The current roll back of restrictions has been only made possible by our current low rate of infection but more importantly something new which you are oddly ignoring - vaccination.

And thats where we are.

Yep there you go....you won't actually tell us what the tolerable threshold of minisation was . And so, because you can just set whatever parameter you find handy today, here you are telling us that with 5,000 people dead and a year of socioeconomically destructive restrictions - the policy has worked well. But if the policy was just "minimisation" -- why isn't it just 4,000 dead, or 3,000 dead, or 2,000 dead?

If another guy came along today and said oh well i actually think "minimising Covid" would have meant far stronger measures and permanent Level 5 for a year ...what would your argument be then? You'd probably say something like Covid was minimised to just about a tolerable level right ?

So what is tolerable? You tell me ...like forget the government strategy for a second and just give me your own personal tolerable threshold. Or do you just want to keep sitting on that fence where you don't have to ask yourself the hard questions and blame anyone who at least tries?

Sharpyshoot

Boggles wrote: »

61,000 half of 150,000?

Nope.

Again that isn't my opinion.

Also it was Tom Parlon who said large amounts of them were doing "nixers".

You'll have take it up with him.

Johnny cash is thriving.

ypres5

Boggles wrote: »

Does one swallow make a summer?

Certain sites were closed, the contention on here is there wasn't a brick laid or wiring ran since December.

It's nonsense.

Where's your proof the majority were working?

paw patrol

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Propaganda 101, make dissenters believe they’re the minority!

I’m yet to actually meet or speak to anyone (excluding this thread) who believes the level of restrictions up to now are appropriate...... not one! But on the radio and in the media you'd believe they’re a dime a dozen

i really hope you are right.

Graham

Elessar wrote: »

I see government has given control to NPHET to apply an emergency brake if numbers start climbing too much.

Why would anyone expect otherwise?

I do think we're in a fairly strong position for that not to happen.

There will obviously be some increase in case numbers as restrictions are relaxed but starting from a relatively low number of cases with an accelerating vaccination program should help mitigate the risk.

Boggles

ypres5 wrote: »

Where's your proof the majority were working?

ypres5

Boggles wrote: »

So no articles, statements from the government or unions, just your flimsy word? Okay...

Boggles

ypres5 wrote: »

So no articles, statements from the government or unions, just your flimsy word? Okay...

What proof would satisfy your needs?

A lad on here basically showed you his passport order yesterday and you told him he didn't get it.

That is a pretty impossible standard TBF.

timmyntc

Boggles wrote: »

61,000 half of 150,000?

Nope.

Again that isn't my opinion.

Also it was Tom Parlon who said large amounts of them were doing "nixers".

You'll have take it up with him.

Construction employment end of Q2 2020 was 129,000, so yes, approx half.

Funny how you take hearsay as fact when it suits you, and dismiss it otherwise.
Also what is a large amount? I doubt its all 60k+ of those on PUP. For starters, not all construction workers can do nixers in your house on the sly.

mohawk

Boggles wrote: »

Nope.

Certain sites were closed.

Self employed trades people were deemed essential.

Unless you think if someone suffered a burst pipe in January they had to wait until April to get it fixed?

The vast majority of construction workers never stopped working, that is not my opinion.

Seriously can you not tell the difference between someone coming to your home to fix a burst pipe and someone who works on new builds where the site was closed?

Lots of the lads still working away in construction for last few months were actually breaking restrictions. Your argument essentially boils down to because lots of people broke the restrictions then the government didn’t have that restriction in place.

The government were wrong to shut down construction. Full stop. Many of the nixers that’s were done will not be declared to the taxman so taxpayers will also lose out that way.

Boggles

mohawk wrote: »

Seriously can you not tell the difference between someone coming to your home to fix a burst pipe and someone who works on new builds where the site was closed?

Lots of the lads still working away in construction for last few months were actually breaking restrictions. Your argument essentially boils down to because lots of people broke the restrictions then the government didn’t have that restriction in place.

The government were wrong to shut down construction. Full stop. Many of the nixers that’s were done will not be declared to the taxman so taxpayers will also lose out that way.

Again it's not my opinion, it's the official numbers backed up by what a federation leader has been saying.

Plus actual reality

Impact of lockdown on housing output less than initially feared, says Goodbody

To put that in context it's a similar level to q1 in 2019, i.e. pre pandemic.

Remember the contention is there has been no construction since December.

I can get you quotes if you wish.

Boggles

timmyntc wrote: »

Construction employment end of Q2 2020 was 129,000, so yes, approx half.

Funny how you take hearsay as fact when it suits you, and dismiss it otherwise.
Also what is a large amount? I doubt its all 60k+ of those on PUP. For starters, not all construction workers can do nixers in your house on the sly.

Over 150,000 construction workers were trained in three weeks using an online training programme from the Construction Industry Federation and GoContractor.

The induction programme was developed by the CIF and was rolled out in three weeks and enabled construction employees to clearly understand their on-site responsibilities in terms of safe working.

Since the course started on April 21, 153,000 workers have been issued with a ‘digital card’ to show that they have successfully completed the course

Again you will have to take it up with the industry, none of this is my opinion.
.

ypres5

Boggles wrote: »

What proof would satisfy your needs?

A lad on here basically showed you his passport order yesterday and you told him he didn't get it.

That is a pretty impossible standard TBF.

Something like an article or something from the government or a construction union would do, that's not impossible at all if what you're saying is true...

paw patrol

Boggles wrote: »

Again it's not my opinion, it's the official numbers backed up by what a federation leader has been saying.

Plus actual reality



To put that in context it's a similar level to q1 in 2019, i.e. pre pandemic.

Remember the contention is there has been no construction since December.

I can get you quotes if you wish.

house building is a subset of construction.

you have ignored the 1000s of small builder who do work like house extensions/driveways/walls that type of thing. They were hung out to dry by the state.

at this stage you are either willfully ignorant or on a wind up

Stormyteacup

ypres5 wrote: »

Something like an article or something from the government or a construction union would do, that's not impossible at all if what you're saying is true...

Cmon get with the program/whitewashing of restrictions.

Construction did not close. All construction continued throughout with all workers in full employment.

You could get a passport at any time in just four days.

5km was the exactly correct distance to restrict movement to - and was proportionate at all times, up to the exact time it was abolished, which was the exact correct time to abolish it.

All outdoor activity and ‘click and collect’ is risky because the associated shenanigans are deadly dangerous, except when they are sanctioned - then it’s fine.

The government is not lead by NPHET, and have done a brilliant job because they got children back in schools, they may have been slow about it but it was a huge achievement. They had to rebuild schools, hire staff, implement safety protocols completely different to pre-Christmas, and make brand new curriculums. It wasn’t as simple as saying ‘ok schools can open’, you know.

finalfurlong

the kelt wrote: »

This is the thing. We are still running at 400/500 cases a day and hospilisations are still falling. We need to be cautious of course but not utterly pessimistic.

Cases are irrelevant now, almost a meaningless metric now, we have to remember cases at the moment are being driven by the multitude of pop up test centres around the country where anyone who feels like it can have a test, what would they be without those centres?

I can see the pace of restriction easing being accelerated but still a bit concerned hearing MM talking about case numbers still as if they are the solid metric they once were.

Agree.If you watch the numbers being tested it has jumped by 15-20% over last month.The gross figure of positives will rise but if you see the positivity rate it has actually been steady or falling-yesterday the 7 day rate was 2.6%.Cant see this being highlighted but it should be.You would think this trend continuing should trump any knee jerk reactions to gross case numbers

Boggles

Stormyteacup wrote: »

Construction did not close. All construction continued throughout with all workers in full employment.

No one claimed that, the claim was all construction closed.

Obviously that is demonstrable false.

Stormyteacup wrote: »

You could get a passport at any time in just four days.

Well I don't know about 4 days, but you could certainly get a passport, 430,000 issued during the pandemic (Minister of Foreign Affairs), plus a poster on here linking to proof he got his.

But yeah white washing.

SAMTALK

Boggles wrote: »

Does one swallow make a summer?

Certain sites were closed, the contention on here is there wasn't a brick laid or wiring ran since December.

It's nonsense.

A lot of individual house builds stayed going where I'm from.

I also viewed a house a month ago and put in an offer, ( accepted )

Officially things were stopped but like hairdressers, beauticians etc a lot of things continued behind closed doors

Boggles

SAMTALK wrote: »

A lot of individual house builds stayed going where I'm from.

I also viewed a house a month ago and put in an offer, ( accepted )

Officially things were stopped but like hairdressers, beauticians etc a lot of things continued behind closed doors

Congrats.

There will be someone along shortly to tell you that didn't happen though.

Graham

the kelt wrote: »

This is the thing. We are still running at 400/500 cases a day and hospilisations are still falling. We need to be cautious of course but not utterly pessimistic.

Cases are irrelevant now, almost a meaningless metric now, we have to remember cases at the moment are being driven by the multitude of pop up test centres around the country where anyone who feels like it can have a test, what would they be without those centres?

I can see the pace of restriction easing being accelerated but still a bit concerned hearing MM talking about case numbers still as if they are the solid metric they once were.

I don't think case numbers are irrelevant now but their use as an indicator/advanced warning for hospitalisations/deaths will need to change.

As the vaccination program protects more people case numbers may not be the precursor to rising hospitalisation and deaths that it was previously.

That in itself is very relevant information.