Relaxation of Restrictions, Part X *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

_Kaiser_

Deleted User wrote: »

What I think concerns a lot of people is the possibility that level 1 is the 'degree of normality' Glynn has mentioned on a number of occasions. That level still has heavy restrictions, including mask-wearing and social distancing. The media seem to be starting to push the idea of level 1 being 'normal life' There was an article in the Irish Mirror the other day comparing level 1 with life in Australia and New Zealand. I have friends who live in Australia who tell me that there are zero domestic restrictions (Victoria is a bit behind the other states, but it scrapped masks in shops the other day and so it appears to be the case that the intention is to scrap them altogether, by which I mean on public transport and in taxis). But we have no idea whether there's an intention to scrap mandatory mask wearing in Ireland. There's no level 0 in that 'living with covid plan', and in our nearest neighbour Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE is of the opinion that mask wearing and social distancing are low level measures that people have got used to. I can't see NPHET not being influenced by what happens next door.

When will Professor Nolan no longer be extremely concerned about case numbers? When will Dr Glynn ever move beyond 'a degree of normality'? The answer is that we have no idea.

Well I certainly won't be wearing masks for the rest of my life and treating everyone I come into contact as a potential bringer of death :rolleyes: or whatever.

If some people want to continue to wear masks or hide away that's perfectly fine, but normal means normal - ie: pre- Feb 2020. None of this "new normal" nonsense.

I don't even wear masks as it is unless absolutely unavoidable (I go with one of those plastic shield things when doing the shopping. Still ridiculous but I'll put up with it - for now!). As I've said before, I live alone, WFH and had a Covid test there in January as part of a hospital procedure and unsurprisingly no issue.

"But what about Granny" I hear some say.. well Granny will need to be careful and look after herself if she's vulnerable - just as she did in the pre-hysteria days. We can't keep putting the lives of millions on hold, the economy on life-support, and ignore the mounting problems and debt caused by both, just to protect a small few from something that only MIGHT have a fatal impact on them.

That's not to say that these people don't matter, or that their deaths aren't sad and unfortunate. Of course they do/are, but a country isn't a lab or theoretical model.. it's a living breathing entity that in a democracy can only be run on the basis that ultimately the needs of the many outweigh those of the few. Those few can and should be supported absolutely, but not at the massive costs its had so far.

FintanMcluskey

ypres5 wrote: »

How is someone going to catch covid walking on a windy beach?

Most covid variants can’t be caught on the beach, but the Irish one can.

I see bars and restaurants are open in South Africa, despite the South African variant being used as a justification for increased lockdown in case of numbers rising in Ireland.

Last weekend the Irish media were like rats on a dead dog talking about France going back into severe lockdown.

Didn’t happen of course, France imposed regional measures in densely populated regions that still allows people to move 10km from their homes and meet up!!

Imagine, the severe lockdown the Irish media were highlighting last weekend isn’t as suppressive as what the Irish have had to tolerate for months now.

https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/25/covid-19-in-europe-france-extends-partial-lockdowns-to-more-parts-of-country-as-cases-surg

The French can leave their homes for unlimited periods within a 10-kilometre radius. But people can only meet in groups of up to six, and travel between regions is banned unless for urgent reasons. Most shops are closed but there are exemptions, and schools remain open.

The measures are more flexible and less restrictive than a year ago, when the first lockdown was imposed on the country as the new disease took hold.

The government has again backed off ordering a tough lockdown, despite an increasingly alarming situation in hospitals with a rise in the number of COVID-19 patients.

Véran defended the decision, questioning whether a full lockdown would be accepted by French people who were "exhausted by fighting tirelessly for a year". But he did not rule out stricter measures if the situation continued to deteriorate.

It’s important we realise we are a global outlier, because when Covid eventually stops making the headlines, Ireland will have by far the greatest economic and social catastrophe to deal with.

Rosita

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

When restrictions are contradictory and don't make sense, and cause more harm than good at this point, people will question them and ultimately decide for themselves.

But that doesn't entitle you do so. It's like saying that sone people have less money and opportunities than others, and don't believe in rules, therefore they will sell drugs and rob shops. Some will but it doesn't entitle them to do it.

Locotastic

Locotastic wrote: »

It's a lot harder to reduce restrictions than it is to introduce them. I have found myself wondering the same, when will masks no longer have to worn by secondary students or in shops?

We gave up a lot in the blink of an eye. It will be much more difficult to regain our 'normal lives' than it was for it to be taken away.

I think normal will only return iwhen enough people stop heeding the nonsense restrictions and rules and say enough is enough.

Absolutely. Look at what's going on the UK where the Coronavirus Act has been extended for another six months and where Matt Hancock is saying that he can't guarantee that it won't be extended again (and possibly again and possibly again). And Johnson said the other day that he reckons test kits will be a feature of school life for years to come: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0gAETIoomY

The British people were told again and again that the vaccine was the ticket back to normal life. They weren't told it was 'vaccine + invasive tests + vaccine passport + (if Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE gets her way) masks and social distancing for years to come'.

_Kaiser_

Rosita wrote: »

But that doesn't entitle you do so. It's like saying that sone people have less money and opportunities than others, and don't believe in rules, therefore they will sell drugs and rob shops. Some will but it doesn't entitle them to do it.

I guess it depends on one's personal values and perspective. Going slightly O/T for this one..

I've never been in trouble with the law in my life and can count on one hand the number of times I've interacted with a Garda in the last decade, and I pay my taxes, work hard and generally try to do the right thing.

But I also know that I live in a country of corruption, waste, and incompetence at all levels of Government and State, and that we've had an increasingly weak procession of Governments in recent times as a result of the egos of the men at the top (Enda, Leo and now Micheal) whose only goal was to get/stay in that top job. It's going on long before them of course but this has an effect on everything in my life - housing, medical costs and access, insurance, my rights as a single father, and so on. I am not blind to these things just because they are how they are.

Also I was raised to analyse and evaluate a situation based on my knowledge, experience and values. I don't do social media like Twitter or Facebook so whatever is trending or seen as the "accepted norm" on there means very little to me (but does to people like Leo which is also a big part of the problem).

As such I will absolutely recognise and call out when I don't think something makes sense or is wrong. I may myself be wrong, but in a democracy a constructive debate is a healthy thing. It's a dangerous road to think we should accept rules or restrictions blindly because some TD (who is generally no more qualified than you or I) says so, or because a group of HSE officials are trying to cover their asses from the fact that they've done nothing to address the problems with our health service in decades.

Ultimately though, the aforementioned needs of society and the economy will dictate when restrictions end, not Micheal Martin or NPHET.

_Kaiser_

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Well I certainly won't be wearing masks for the rest of my life and treating everyone I come into contact as a potential bringer of death :rolleyes: or whatever.

If some people want to continue to wear masks or hide away that's perfectly fine, but normal means normal - ie: pre- Feb 2020. None of this "new normal" nonsense.

I don't even wear masks as it is unless absolutely unavoidable (I go with one of those plastic shield things when doing the shopping. Still ridiculous but I'll put up with it - for now!). As I've said before, I live alone, WFH and had a Covid test there in January as part of a hospital procedure and unsurprisingly no issue.

"But what about Granny" I hear some say.. well Granny will need to be careful and look after herself if she's vulnerable - just as she did in the pre-hysteria days. We can't keep putting the lives of millions on hold, the economy on life-support, and ignore the mounting problems and debt caused by both, just to protect a small few from something that only MIGHT have a fatal impact on them.

That's not to say that these people don't matter, or that their deaths aren't sad and unfortunate. Of course they do/are, but a country isn't a lab or theoretical model.. it's a living breathing entity that in a democracy can only be run on the basis that ultimately the needs of the many outweigh those of the few. Those few can and should be supported absolutely, but not at the massive costs its had so far.

A lot of people feel the same, but if the 'mask required' signs are everywhere then it'll be very hard to go about your life mask free.

That's what I understand normal to mean, i.e. February 2020, but this 'new normal' is being pushed a lot. That 'degree of normality' Glynn mentions is level 1, in my opinion. That's not normal life. The obvious thing to do is to either scrap the masks, or make them voluntary. But in Ireland there's no opposition, so I don't know how you ever get from level 1 to level 0.

Locotastic

Rosita wrote: »

But that doesn't entitle you do so. It's like saying that sone people have less money and opportunities than others, and don't believe in rules, therefore they will sell drugs and rob shops. Some will but it doesn't entitle them to do it.

When some become many and there's a general societal acceptance of the risk then those restrictions won't matter one bit.

Laws for drugs and robbery are completely different to holding a nation to ransom and purposely scaring people to keep them compliant.

My own (vulnerable) inlaws who cocooned for the guts of a year and who are still unvaccinated BTW are no longer following the restrictions and are enjoying long drives and walks in new places, without fear.

They are quite conservative, not at all law breakers but they simply have had enough. It gives me an indication that there's plenty of people who will be doing the same.

SnuggyBear

Comparing walking on the beach alone to robbing and selling drugs now are we? The government have done a great job brain washing some people.

RGS

We appear to have a government that follows not lead.

Peole are breaking the 5km limit---government will extend it.

People are meeting other people---government will allow it.

On the 13 April the courts may strike down the construction regs, so government will have to allow construction as it's a court order.

Government have ceded control to NPHET who wont allow any easing of restrictions as they have no interest in the economy or the normal needs of society. They are a one issue organisation.

They know they have the government by the short and curlies after Christmas and have IMO no intention of letting go.

Graham

Locotastic wrote: »

When some become many and there's a general societal acceptance of the risk then those restrictions won't matter one bit.

As it's a minority that are currently ignoring the restrictions even by your odd logic they still matter.

Boggles

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't even wear masks as it is unless absolutely unavoidable (I go with one of those plastic shield things when doing the shopping. Still ridiculous but I'll put up with it - for now!). As I've said before, I live alone, WFH and had a Covid test there in January as part of a hospital procedure and unsurprisingly no issue.

So you are in the rather minority position of not having to interact with anyone but the one scenario you do, you don't bother your hole wearing a mask?

Brilliant. :rolleyes:

SnuggyBear

Graham wrote: »

As it's a minority that are currently ignoring the restrictions even by your odd logic they still matter.

Lol your living in a dream world if you think it's a minority

Locotastic

Rosita wrote: »

I don't get the "don't care what you think" comment
Why personalise it? Not about me.

It was a generalised comment that some people seem to feel they are above the law that relates to others and it's not clear why.

On a personal level I could give a fiddler's what you think you're entitled to do.

SnuggyBear wrote: »

The government have done a great job brain washing some people.

Nail on the head, that exactly what seems to have happened to some people who are utterly terrified at the thought of themselves (and others) living regular lives.

Graham

SnuggyBear wrote: »

Lol your living in a dream world if you think it's a minority

Maybe in your bubble or this thread.

Meanwhile in the real world, most are still adhering to the restrictions.

Sweet.Science

RGS wrote: »

We appear to have a government that follows not lead.

Peole are breaking the 5km limit---government will extend it.

People are meeting other people---government will allow it.

On the 13 April the courts may strike down the construction regs, so government will have to allow construction as it's a court order.

Government have ceded control to NPHET who wont allow any easing of restrictions as they have no interest in the economy or the normal needs of society. They are a one issue organisation.

They know they have the government by the short and curlies after Christmas and have IMO no intention of letting go.

Is that case going ahead 13th april ? You'd have to think they will be successful .

Locotastic

Graham wrote: »

As it's a minority that are currently ignoring the restrictions even by your odd logic they still matter.

If they want to stay home under their bed forever I could care less, it's not their fault really they've been conditioned to see normal life as something negative.

I dont want this to be all there is for my kids, I don't accept it and I want them to have experiences and opportunities outside of covid like they have for most of their lives.

It's not a minority ignoring restrictions either, quite the opposite.

Graham

RGS wrote: »

Government have ceded control to NPHET who wont allow any easing of restrictions as they have no interest in the economy or the normal needs of society. They are a one issue organisation.

Public health. It's no secret, there's a pretty big clue in the name.

_Kaiser_

Boggles wrote: »

So you are in the rather minority position of not having to interact with anyone but the one scenario you do, you don't bother your hole wearing a mask?

Brilliant. :rolleyes:

Yep. There's a dedicated mask thread of course but I'll go back to this..

In the early days of this "crisis" when we really DID have reason to be fearful and cautious, masks were not mandated until the late summer.

Despite this there was no surge in deaths or illness in supermarkets and the likes and even WITH masks being mandatory since then, the cases (as that's all we measure) have continued to vary wildly.

What that tells me is that masks are at best ineffective - at worst a potentially negative thing giving people a false sense of security.

But by all means continue to mask up if you feel it helps (and I say that sincerely). People will increasingly have to make their own judgements on these things as the needs of the wider country start to move us forward and out of the current restrictions - regardless of whether some are ready/want to or not.

RGS

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Is that case going ahead 13th april ? You'd have to think they will be successful .

Read the other day the state must file an affidavit by the 12th and case is listed for 13th.

Hopefully it goes ahead and the state lose.

It's a totally discriminatory regulation. Its animal farm territory.

SOCIAL HOUSING CONSTRUCTION SAFE.

PRIVATE CONSTRUCTION UNSAFE.

TonyMaloney

Lads, we're under heavy restrictions right now and for good reason.

Why in god's name are you all working yourself up into a fervor over future theoretical indefinite restrictions?
Long term restrictions on travel to certain countries is likely to happen, and for good reason.
Beyond that, it's in everybody's interest to get us back to normal and that's what is going to happen.

The FF, FG and the Green party are not colluding to take away your rights in the long term for some as yet unexplained reason.
It makes no sense at all. It is not happening.

Can we refocus on what is actually happening for a while?

_Kaiser_

RGS wrote: »

Read the other day the state must file an affidavit by the 12th and case is listed for 13th.

Hopefully it goes ahead and the state lose.

It's a totally discriminatory regulation. Its animal farm territory.

SOCIAL HOUSING CONSTRUCTION SAFE.

PRIVATE CONSTRUCTION UNSAFE.

It's as logical as...

Grocery aisle safe. Wander as long as you like
Clothing aisle next to it.... nooooo!!!! :rolleyes:

and it's this sort of stuff that is turning people away from the messaging from NPHET and Government.

discostu1

Ok a lot of heated debate on here, firstly I have followed all the rules and will continue to do so. To me the most interesting development was what is happening in the States where they have had huge numbers of deaths and cases. I have relations in lots of different states.
17 days ago Texas said we are re opening, not partially, fully no mandatory masks etc you might remember Biden said this was "Neanderthal thinking "....their cases have dropped, now that may well be due to a lot of people being vaccinated roughly a third of Americans are though some states are ahead of others. I haven't examined the Data fully but I always understood that we would see an impact of any change roughly 2 weeks after the event I am NOT saying we should go down this route but it is interesting that where I thought we would see a lot of dead Texans and hospitals overwhelmed it does not appear to be the case

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9410481/Texas-COVID-numbers-fall-17th-consecutive-day-following-reopening.html

stargazer 68

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's as logical as...

Grocery aisle safe. Wander as long as you like
Clothing aisle next to it.... nooooo!!!! :rolleyes:

and it's this sort of stuff that is turning people away from the messaging from NPHET and Government.

Forgot the bit about clothing that's on sale is safe as long as its moved to the grocery area. But not safe if its sold with non sale clothes!

SNNUS

Lads,

It's only heavy restrictions for a year and we are the only outlier in the world with these crazy restrictions.

#holdsafe #stayfirm



quote="TonyMaloney;116719564"]Lads, we're under heavy restrictions right now and for good reason.

Why in god's name are you all working yourself up into a fervor over future theoretical indefinite restrictions?
Long term restrictions on travel to certain countries is likely to happen, and for good reason.
Beyond that, it's in everybody's interest to get us back to normal and that's what is going to happen.

The FF, FG and the Green party are not colluding to take away your rights in the long term for some as yet unexplained reason.
It makes no sense at all. It is not happening.

Can we refocus on what is actually happening for a while?[/quote]

FintanMcluskey

discostu1 wrote: »

Ok a lot of heated debate on here, firstly I have followed all the rules and will continue to do so. To me the most interesting development was what is happening in the States where they have had huge numbers of deaths and cases. I have relations in lots of different states.
17 days ago Texas said we are re opening, not partially, fully no mandatory masks etc you might remember Biden said this was "Neanderthal thinking "....their cases have dropped, now that may well be due to a lot of people being vaccinated roughly a third of Americans are though some states are ahead of others. I haven't examined the Data fully but I always understood that we would see an impact of any change roughly 2 weeks after the event I am NOT saying we should go down this route but it is interesting that where I thought we would see a lot of dead Texans and hospitals overwhelmed it does not appear to be the case

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9410481/Texas-COVID-numbers-fall-17th-consecutive-day-following-reopening.html

The thing is, we convinced ourselves lockdown is the only medicine for Covid.

Turns out, there is no proof the medicine actually works long term.

Countries who never took or stopped taking the medicine are doing just fine

Boggles

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Yep. There's a dedicated mask thread of course but I'll go back to this..

In the early days of this "crisis" when we really DID have reason to be fearful and cautious, masks were not mandated until the late summer.

Despite this there was no surge in deaths or illness in supermarkets and the likes and even WITH masks being mandatory since then, the cases (as that's all we measure) have continued to vary wildly.

What that tells me is that masks are at best ineffective - at worst a potentially negative thing giving people a false sense of security.

But by all means continue to mask up if you feel it helps (and I say that sincerely). People will increasingly have to make their own judgements on these things as the needs of the wider country start to move us forward and out of the current restrictions - regardless of whether some are ready/want to or not.

So masks have caused more spread of the virus, more illness and deaths?

Okey Dokey, we will there so.

acequion

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Véran defended the decision, questioning whether a full lockdown would be accepted by French people who were "exhausted by fighting tirelessly for a year". But he did not rule out stricter measures if the situation continued to deteriorate.

Thanks Fintan for posting that about France. What stands out to me the most is the common sense realisation that their people may not accept any more. And the contrasting glaringly obvious lack of either concern or awareness of such by our authorities. Lack of concern, I suspect because they can't be so thick they don't get it.

Tailoring policies to the needs of all the people is central to democratic governance. The complete lack of it here is very worrying. And you can't just blame the Govt as the Govt reflect the people. It's the amount of brainwashed, terrified, hysterical people insisting on the continuing repression of social and economic activities, that are the ones to blame.

Those same people will probably scream a different hysteria when economic carnage hits.

Stormyteacup

Deleted User wrote: »

The World Economic Forum seem to believe that this 'new normal' isn't temporary:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/the-great-reset-global-digital-sustainability/

"Individuals, much as we each yearn to return to life as it was before the pandemic, have to adjust to a life that has greater restrictions on what we can do, and most importantly, in harmony with nature."

Do you remember voting for WEF or Chandran Nair to decide how you live your life?

If it's in everybody's interest then why is Dr Mary Ramsay of PHE predicting that masks and social distancing will be kept in place for years to come? Why is there no level 0 in the Irish Government's 'living with covid plan'? Why is Glynn increasingly talking about 'a degree of normality'? It's not surprising people are concerned. And in Ireland there's no opposition, which makes it even more complicated.

We will get there eventually, and it will be the same way we are slowly and painfully getting to a point where government are being forced to ease 5km restriction. If there were no polls/social media unrest/articles in media questioning the need for and compliance to the 5km, the people making decisions on restrictions would quite happily leave the 5km in place.

Once we start getting some freedoms back, the pressure will be applied for the next restriction the majority are calling to be lifted.

Those that believe the general public will comply with wearing masks and keeping 2m away from each other indefinitely are deluded. The opposition will be from the people. Most of us would welcome a more climate-friendly way of living but there’s no way it will come about so long as people watch the rich get richer while oppressive restrictions are mandated for everyone else. What great change for the better has come about without bringing the people with you?

growleaves

TonyMaloney wrote: »

Lads, we're under heavy restrictions right now and for good reason.

Why in god's name are you all working yourself up into a fervor over future theoretical indefinite restrictions?
Long term restrictions on travel to certain countries is likely to happen, and for good reason.
Beyond that, it's in everybody's interest to get us back to normal and that's what is going to happen.

The FF, FG and the Green party are not colluding to take away your rights in the long term for some as yet unexplained reason.
It makes no sense at all. It is not happening.

Can we refocus on what is actually happening for a while?

That is a good question Tony.

What I do this summer is influenced by what I think will happen next winter.

1. It's already been said by the government that there may be a lockdown next Autumn-Winter. That means there probably will be.

2. We've been conditioned or outright told (McConkey, given national prominence) that vaccines will be ineffective/abrogated by so-called 'variants'.

3. There are no attempts to increase ICU capacity. While they couldn't be magically doubled last March, we will soon be on a timescale of years. It is already Year Two. We are always going to have a rickety, on-the-verge-of-collapse hospital system apparently.

I have no bitterness against supporters of restrictions but lads you will be here on this thread next October spinning another Level 5 lockdown, citing 'circumstances which are out of anyone's hands'.

There is a childish view of human psychology that goes with all this. 'No one has any motive to do x, y, z'. Grow up, childhood is over. The Green Party are a gang of would-be totalitarians, their left faction wants 'Degrowth' and reducing flights per person.

People who appear in front of television cameras and smile are not your friends. They represent their own interests, not yours.

_Kaiser_

Boggles wrote: »

So masks have caused more spread of the virus, more illness and deaths?

Okey Dokey, we will there so.

Not what I said.. have another read