Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

johnh6767

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187591#Comment_122187591

next year Foley & Gunne are well able to take over the mantle to deputise for JGP and learn from the master himself. Leinster do that piece well, we are all just too impatient on the halfbacks as we try to figure out tomorrow today

theVersatile

Going to leave my thoughts on the game here since the match thread is a bit of a mess…

As has been repeated ad nauseum here, Leinster not taking their points was huge. So many times they kicked for the corner, and just tried to beat up Toulouse mauling. I kept waiting for some shifty fake-maul strike play - but every time it was just mauls, which were far too messy to be banking on. It's not the first time a failure to take the points on offer has cost Leinster either - they've made a habit of doing this. They've got to respect the game - that's what Toulouse did and it ultimately lead to victory despite going down to fourteen. I'm not a Leinster fan so I'm in no position to comment on whether Cullen should stay or go - it's very much a "devil you know, devil you don't" situation. You can't argue against the fact he's made four finals, and you also can't argue against the fact that he's lost four finals - so it's a sticky situation to be in. It'll obviously all depend on who's available - as there aren't any prominent candidates to promote from within (bar Neinbar as "Senior Coach", but lets be real he's a de-facto head coach at this stage).

Leinster's attack did not fire at all - whether that was a product of Toulouse's defence or Leinster's regression is beyond me. I would agree with some in saying that they've regressed in attack compared to this time a year or so ago under Lancaster. Toulouse's physicality and ruck disruption was exceptional and a huge part of that - but even when Leinster did generate quick ball, their running lines and passes never seemed to generate too much stress in the middle third of the pitch. In the attacking third, their accuracy was poor - there must have been three butchered backline plays in the first half where cleaner execution would've had Toulouse in serious trouble.

Ultimately, their pack and their kicking game kept them in the game. Their forward's tight carries and Byrne's up-and-unders were the only thing which seemed to gain any reasonable territory. Byrne has caught some flak post-game but he's far from the problem - I don't think the attack in this system would've functioned any more smoothly had any other tens been in there. Frawley's impact I'd attribute more to fresh legs being able to exploit tiredness a bit more rather than any game changing ability he has at ten. RB should've been whisked off immediately when he was injured though - letting him play on was madness. While I'd agree he isn't an international starting 10 or a Tier 1 World Class 10, he's good enough to win Champions Cups - if you play cup rugby and take your points.

It's also worth noting the impact injuries had on Leinster's selection. Osborne has come in for a lot of hype recently and, while he was quietly going about his business in the previous rounds, he wasn't stand out for me. I think yesterday he found out how hard life at the top is like. You can't hold it against him, he's obviously a talented kid, but having Ringrose available and fit would've made a mighty difference. The same can be said for Jimmy O'Brien: I posted repeatedly before the game about Larmour's limitations - and while he had a few good aerial contests of RB's contestables and a great cover tackle on Lebel, he was caught in absolute no-man's land for the ET try. He gets caught in two minds as whether to shoot or drift, gets 360'd by Ramos's dummy pump, and then gets skint by Lebel. He didn't offer a huge amount in attack either, as was the case in the semi-final. Fit JOB would've been a lot better. Ryan starting the game would've also meant a huge amount in the early physical exchanges of the game. I also think starting Connors was wrong in hindsight.

The substitutions is also a bit weird. Porter is great, but having him on for 90 minutes and leaving Healy on the bench is mental. The lack of trust in a 100+ cap international (who is far from 'washed up', as some people his age would be) was rather odd. Leinster will have a huge job bringing one of Milne, Boyle or McCarthy up to European level next season (especially if Healy has to shift across to cover TH due to the lack of cover). Same with McGrath and Foley (Gunne did not impress me at 20s level and has two or three years of development minimum before he's anywhere close to the Leinster full strength 23).

Overall, they were just a bit off. Plenty fired up, but lacking the real accuracy of a cup winning side. I'd feared before the game, given the Northampton and Ulster results (the latter of which involved the majority of the pack that finished out the game yesterday), that Leinster had peaked too early v La Rochelle. The more things play out, the more that seems the case. The only question is whether they'll burn out of the URC entirely or embark on a revenge quest and use the emotional backlash to win the URC.

Ultimately, I imagine Leo will go with a mostly unchanged squad for the URC QF. I can see JOB, Ryan and VDF coming into the starting line-up, but I don't see any experimentation happening. I imagine this Emerging Ireland tour will tell a lot for some of Leinster's younger players.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187660#Comment_122187660

Learn from the master.. are they doing an apprenticeship in Toulouse??

El_Duderino 09

Is Deeny the answer to anything? I see him as a filler who they have to give gametime to. I'd say prefer to cut him loose and spin the wheel on someone who might make the first team.

Am I missing something with Deeny?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187678#Comment_122187678

He got to 5 European finals, won one of them. Just to be 100% correct

His record so far

2016 - Group stages knock out

2017 - Semi Clermont loss

2018 - won

2019 - Final loss

2020 - Qtr

2021 - Semi

2022 - Final loss

2023 - final loss

2024 - final loss

AbusesToilets

Big fan of Osborne, but Ngatai would've offered more yesterday. We desperately needed some creativity in the centres.

I'm so tired this pattern of us losing a final, fixing the issue, then finding a new way to lose next time out. 1st final vs La Rochelle, we kicked too much instead of going for tries, then the 2nd final we went for tries instead of kicking, then this time we couldn't buy a try. Sick of it.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187739#Comment_122187739

The most galling thing about yesterday is that it should have been abundantly clear early enough in the game that taking the points was the right call.

I have a hard time believing that Doris and Ryan and whoever else are so monumentally thick as to keep making the same rubbish call over and over and over again, so it must have been a call from above. In which case, which of the coaches are responsible for the awful decisions to not take the points on offer. Whichever coach that is should be given their P45.

Nienaber was the water boy. Ryan rode the pine for the first portion of the game before coming on. How was the message not brought on that this was a day for kicking your points?

This makes absolutely no sense to me. This sort of crap decision making cost Leinster one week ago. Literally in the previous game to this one the exact same rubbish calls cost them and they didn't have the wit to adjust. Baffling.

Clegg

Ross Byrne isn't a brilliant 10, but I don't think he was the major difference between the sides yesterday. Ntamack hardly shot the lights out either.

Toulouse won that game through a greater threat at the breakdown, an excellent maul defence and better game management.

I've seen the stats for the final. Leinster had 33 rucks in the Toulouse 22. By comparison, Toulouse only had 4 in Leinster's. Leinster kicked for the corner when Toulouse infringed in the 22 and the French sides excellent maul defence kept them out. And when they didn't infringe they turned us over. Some of it was last gasp stuff and imo illegal, but that just shows they played the referee better and pushed their luck.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122187678#Comment_122187678

Very nice post

Good perspectives

Ross Byrne certainly is not the problem but part of a backline that's not purring

Dubinusa

I think he's worth persisting with. He's not really had an impact yet. Still only 24. There could be a decent player in there.

Dubinusa

Just watched the final again. I'd just like to say that Dupont is probably the best player I've ever seen. Just incredible!

On this viewing, I would say fair play to Frawley for his dg attempt. At the time I was thing wtf? But, it probably was worth a shot with the clock so late in the match.

That stadium looks top level.

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188018#Comment_122188018

Did they not have scrum advantage? He had so much time to set for it, really had to make it

CardMagic

Disagree. Tremendously thick is also pretty toxic language when they look at loads of data on this exact thing. I think Leinster needed tries to beat toulouse. Hard to win with 3s. Leinster also got slated for taking 3s against LR 2 years ago.

A lot of 3 point opportunities came from being in toulouse half from pens. If they kick 3 and get pinned back in own half, there are way less 3 point opps too. I think it was a calculated way of stopping worlds best club attack having possession and territory - a big advantage of going corner as well as yellow cards. It didn't work out for Leinster but it's right play on average and why change identity for a final. Just seems like postcasting to me

SaoPaulo41

Muddled No 10 picture, poor attack and refusal to take points – strategic errors cost Leinster the ultimate prize

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/champions-cup/muddled-no-10-picture-poor-attack-and-refusal-to-take-points-strategic-errors-cost-leinster-the-ultimate-prize/a752405054.html

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188037#Comment_122188037

Could you or someone clarify what happened with that scrum please?

Was it a penalty adv or fk?

It's all a muddle and I cant bring myself to read or listen much about the final.

wtf with H2O boy? ridiculous decisions made across the board in the game.

Toulouse deserving winners.

Better halfbacks, better decisions, better ruck, better subs, better coaching.

aloooof

Finally got to see the game and had intended on commenting, but can't improve on theVersatile's post above. Completely enthralling game for the neutral. DuPont is the best rugby player in the world at the moment, but if he can win a RWC with France in 2027, he might just go down as the best of all time.

But commiserations lads, jesus tough one to stomach…

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188339#Comment_122188339

It is. Imagine how the players feel.

this could be a raw reaction but I'm concerned how this gets better.

Leinster are stuck in vortex of Byrnes, Nienaber and JGP (or nothing) for next season at the very least.

Its also concerning for Irish team because this game had more than a whiff of NZ QF.

KO rugby has become a problem for these teams.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188339#Comment_122188339

Yeah, having a couple of days to reflect on it, I think it's a fair summary. I do think Carley's poor decisions had meaningful impact on the score line and momentum of the game that hurt us badly, but as others have say - it was Carley being Carley.

Too many mistakes, inaccuracy and poor game management.

I wasn't convinced Nienaber was a good appointment when it was announced, and I'm still not. Rush defense, lots of kicking and heavily relying on the maul - we didn't need him to try turn us into SA, we just needed a bit more dog in the pack, and aggression in defense. It feels like we're throwing out what Lancaster brought rather than building on it. Maybe that's overstated, and I know there was less time for the coaches because of the RWC and their late starts, but our attack is one dimensional.

On the 10 debate, I really wish they'd give Frawley an opportunity. People say he's never going to be a 10, but he hasn't really had a proper shot. He runs harder at the line than Ross, and seems more physically committed than either Ross or Harry...and more decisive - the drop goals at the weekend were another example of him not being the type of player to hide or shirk responsibility...he wanted the ball. I don't know that I've seen that enough from either Byrne. I think he could be a better short term option while Prendergast is developing, tbh.

Chico Flores

At any level, you cannot win if your 10 stands really deep and doesn't move. I think the great performance v La Rochelle might be a one off for Ross Byrne.

Cause he is no threat, their defence could just ignore him and basically mean they had an extra man drifting wide in defence not worried about a break. No coincidence that Frawley comes on and takes runs down blind side and we start making lots of yards in that regular time end game

Still down in the dumps over it

OldRio

I find it baffling that Frawley wasn't playing at 10 v Ulster. A 6 2 split and no recent minutes for your back up. Utter madness.

Lord Palmerston

It's another absolutely sickening defeat. Last year was still the worst one, for a combination of reasons, but what is so bad about this one was there were so many times during the game where I felt we're the better side, we're playing more rugby and putting them under pressure, and they are requiring miraculous turnovers or balls not going to hand to survive here.

For the actual life of me I cannot understand why we haven't learned the lesson to just kick every good opportunity for points you get. I've almost never seen this strategy not work in finals/knock out rugby, yet for reasons completely unknown to me Leinster have decided to shun this strategy on multiple occasions now.

I hate saying this - but I do feel Carley had a massive, outsized impact on this game. It was harder to tell at the game, but watching it back last night some incidents are even more baffling to me.

The really significant ones were:

(i) 14 mins - Ntamack's rip in the tackle, which immediately led to Joe McCarthy picking the ball up and scoring. It was as clear and obvious a rip as you'll ever see - and the laws on this are really clear:

Law 11.5
The ball is not knocked-on, and play continues, if:
A player knocks the ball forward immediately after an opponent has kicked it (charge down).
A player rips or knocks the ball from an opponent and the ball goes forward from the opponent’s hand or arm.
[source:  ] https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/11

Why TF Carley refuses to even check this, and see if he's maybe gotten it wrong is beyond me.

(ii) 28 mins - Sheehan's break, the penalty given to Dupont essentially on the Toulouse try line. There is no lift from Dupont, and he then just flops over the ruck onto the Leinster side. It should have been a penalty and YC to Dupont, which would have been a massive, game changing decision. As other's have pointed out, the distinction between this penalty and the one where Sheehan is on the ball around halfway for what felt like a half an hour is so stark.

(iii) 40 mins - calls the knock on against Leinster at the ruck, and immediately whistles play dead, despite Leinster having penalty advantage. Clear from the replays the ball comes off a foot and isn't a knock on. Why didn't he let that sequence play out?

(iv) 67 mins - one of the arguably most blatant and most frustrating - the Willis pick up. Setting aside the fact that it's a ruck at that point and you're not allowed to just pick up the ball, he's also very clearly in from the side. There is absolutely no way that ball was out by comparison to virtually any other ruck in the game. It was an easy and obvious penalty to Leinster from straight in front, with 10 mins to go, that would have seen Leinster go to in front 15-12, instead Toulouse attack from it.

The Roumat/Lowe comparison is a farce. I don't think either player actually was deliberately trying to knock it on or slap it out of play, both just instinctively put an arm up. It strikes Lowe on the upper arm and goes up in the air. How one incident can be a play on, nothing to see here, and the other a penalty and YC is a **** joke.

There were a multitude of other small offenses throughout, but those four were utterly egregious IMO. I've heard people claim Toulouse could probably list a litany of similar issues, and I watched the game last night to see if there were incidents like that but there aren't. Feel free to list them if there are. All of the big controversial moments in the game went against Leinster, 100%.

Not taking anything away from a superb Toulouse side, Dupont and Willis were sublime. Their defence was utterly incredible, but I fundamentally believe Carley got those decisions above 100% wrong, and that it absolutely decided the outcome of this game.

jonok28

Leinster's attack this season has been mechanical. There rarely is any flow to the movements and it is easier for good teams to shut down the attack. The sense of urgency inside the oppositions 22 has been their undoing, especially in the final. I don't think it can be underestimated how important Garry Ringrose is to making the Leinster midfield tick. Osborne and Henshaw are very similar ball carriers and don't offer the same variation as Ringrose does in attack.

Ross wasn't the problem in the final. Neither was Frawley. Dupont played like the best player in the World. Leinster are going to be stronger in many ways next season but they are also going to be significantly weaker.

Snyman and Barrett are going to offer huge World Class options. But the loss of Ala'alatoa, the aging of Cian Healy and with Luke McGrath falling off a cliff in terms of his on field abilities. Michael Milne and Jack Boyle are not ready to step into the 17 Jersey. Tom Clarkson and Rory McGuire are not ready to step into the 18 jersey and Fintan Gunne and Foley aren't yet ready to take the back up scrum half position. they are all around 12 months away. Boyle is 12 months away from legitimately pushing Porter for the jersey. I'm not sure Clarkson or McGuire will get close to Furlong level and Gunne is about 12-18 months away from being ready.

it is a bit of a travesty that the IRFU has stepped in and stopped Leinster from going out and getting a NIQ TH. They have been to the last 3 finals and are competing against French teams who can bring in as much international talent as they want.

Jack Boyle will be 2nd choice LH by about the midway point of next season and will be a factor in Europe but Gunne, Foley, Clarkson and McGuire are a ways away.

I'd love to bring Kieran Marmion in for the year to step in as back up scrum half and then Leinster need to make another go at getting a quality back up Tighthead. We can't expect to play Furlong 75 plus minutes if Leo or Jacque don't trust the replacement like they do with Luke McGrath.

In 12 to 18 months time Leinster will be in a seriously strong position of strength but it would be extremely poor team management by Leinster and neglectful of the IRFU to leave Leinster short at positions of serious need in the short term.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188665#Comment_122188665

Your point about the backup SH is true, but you should also consider that JGP is 32, and there is a good chance this was his peak. He has single handedly carried Leinster through so many times this season, is he going to be able to do that again? At some point he will start to slide, it's inevitable.

Chico Flores

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188665#Comment_122188665

I think every province can make the case of help in the front row is the thing, certainly feel with Leinster and Munster in particular, a strong back up at Leinster and starter for Munster, will seriously hurt in the big boy games of rugby

Think you're giving Ross an easy pass, Ringrose or not, no movement, just planting his feet and passing isn't good enough at this level. Henshaw played really well but cause Byrne was so deep he had two defenders on him and only 5 yards away. We were a few metres away from winning with a drop goal due to the injection of pace that Frawley brought. Im not trying to be wise after the fact, we would have all started Ross in the game but it didn't click, like it didn't click v Northampton and in particular on Byrne when we were going for the corner, he wasn't getting us to the 5m line - we were 8/9m out

I would be a little worried about the strike moves we had, nothing more than screen passes too.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188731#Comment_122188731

I'd agree with a lot of this tbh. It's really harsh on Byrne, but his lack of line threat is a real problem.

There was one turnover early in the game (I think it was the 2nd Toulouse penalty that they kicked) where Osborne was getting criticism on comm's for getting isolated and turning it over, but I thought it was really harsh.

He received it with the defence on top of him, and a large part of that was because 2 passes earlier, Byrne was super-deep, turned sideways very early and passed. The defence could push off him and line things up outside him. Now, other players definitely could've done things better, but that was the origins of the turnover for me.

Toulouse were able to push off very early pretty frequently throughout the full 60-odd minutes Byrne was on, and that went some way towards way Leinster's attack in phase play looked blunt.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188767#Comment_122188767

I thought that was Henshaw's fault - he ran a support line where he was never going to receive an offload and took himself out of the game so nobody was there to clear the ruck..

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188625#Comment_122188625

We were absolutely robbed by Carley. A disgraceful game from him and his ARs.

Skyfloater

How people can say that RB's inability to run is not an issue baffles me. It puts huge pressure on those outside him, as he can't 'fix' any defenders.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188803#Comment_122188803

I thought the same, and also think Keenan and Connors (I think) could've also done a better job at the ruck. It's not all on Byrne. But I still feel the origin was how deep and sideways Byrne was. It just takes away that extra half-second that could make all the difference to the outside backs.

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122188665#Comment_122188665

Fortunately we don't need Clarkson to hit Furlongs level, we need him to hit Alla'altoa's Scrummaging level. I'm not sure he's too far away from that now.

What I think will suffer will be further down the line, we will need to take 2 academy tightheads this year and hopefully another one next year. If Clarkson can break out and be a competent scrummager there's a risk he gets into Ireland squads and we are left with a couple of academy tightheads to fill a gap. That's a problem at the moment considering we only have McGuire in the academy at the moment.