Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032839#Comment_122032839

never answers me on the close to 20m Ulster got handed for Ravenhill?
Or can we not discuss that because it’s not a moan about Leinster 👍👍😂

Lord Palmerston

The current Campbell College website (and the Royal School Armagh one for example) lay out in detail the extensive fees they charge.
https://www.campbellcollege.co.uk/admissions/fees

https://royalschool.com/admissions/fees-bursaries/

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032841#Comment_122032841

You're making the huge presumption that he would have developed into that player if he went to the local CBS and whether he would have chosen rugby, been identified by Connacht, and provided the coaching to develop. Doris didn't come into the Leinster academy with the same hype as other backrows.

You've completely ignoring what the wider Leinster system helped him develop into - which isn't surprising given the narrative you're peddling that it only takes money.

BTW, I'm still waiting for you to respond to the numerous similarities I posted showing Munster's '00 and Leinster currently and why their actions ruined themselves.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032852#Comment_122032852

If you take what you believe is an 'inequitable benefit' away from one side, how are you not dragging that side backwards?

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032846#Comment_122032846

Do they "probably"? That sounds "probably" terrible. Do youse lose a fifth when you go to the Aviva? I imagine that would also "probably" be awful.

Just so I Know, what numbers are you basing that on, other than a desire to be the number one most hard-havin'-it province?

And we're not including concession income. Christ.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032883#Comment_122032883

Yeah, it’s fairly well established Leinster pay substantial rent to the RDS and obviously they do for the Aviva.

Leinster didn’t have the luxury of a government grant of £14.7m to pay for upgrades to their stadium, and don’t own their stadium.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032864#Comment_122032864

Sorry, I didn't see the question.

Yes, £18 million back investment because of the Troubles.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032882#Comment_122032882

I've answered this in what you're replying to - it's because I don't think the impact would appreciably / materially affect competition results. I'd still expect Leinster to be there at the business end of the season.

Like I've said; Leinster could win both competitions this season, and have an even stronger squad next.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032902#Comment_122032902

Leinster also didn't have the Troubles at the heart of the city and their society.

Do you think that investment was better than not having the Troubles, terms of sport and rugby up here? Did we end up coming out ahead?

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032913#Comment_122032913

You still haven’t answered the question though about the actual link between the central contracts now and Leinster’s continued superior development of players than other provinces in the past 15-20 years.

I accepted the point it makes the Leinster squad stronger right now today, but it wasn’t a factor in the production of this exceptional crop of players and no one has produced any kind of coherent argument for how it was.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032923#Comment_122032923

Look, you’re about a million miles off topic here - I have zero issue with the funding Ulster received or the source of it. I’m all for it.

My posts were in response to your suggestions that Ulster were especially disadvantaged from a match day income perspective because of VAT, and I pointed out that Leinster have an equivalent disadvantage in terms of having to pay rent on the grounds they play in, and not deriving other match day income. Neither of us can quantify the exact difference.

Paul Smeenus

Well, that's true.

Although I'm not sure why you raised it then? Ulster got "the luxury of a government grant" because there had been zero help or investment because the IRA might have blown it up, knowing most in the crowds were Protestants. You brought it up.

But Leinster can do something about the cost -they face Ulster can not. Whether Leinster choose to or not, I presume reflects how much of a problem it is.

Ulster also don't have the tax rebate for players that any team in the South does.

And you raised the cost-of-living but when I asked about comparative salaries you dropped it.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032963#Comment_122032963

I didn’t raise the cost of living piece, that was someone else.

I raised the funding because regardless of the reason for it or the source of it, it’s still obviously a comparative advantage for Ulster in this scenario versus Leinster.

This was in direct response to you raising the VAT point as a significant disadvantage to Ulster (from a funding perspective).

You chose not to engage with my earlier point that Ulster do not look like a side who historically have had funding issues based on the litany of top tier NIQs they’ve brought in.

Paul Smeenus

The funding is obviously a comparative advantage.

It was given because of years of non-investment because of the Troubles. Now, I realise you're not interested in those years of non-investment, because that suggests that perhaps Ulster were getting help after years of comparative disadvantage to all the other provinces. That it was a rectifying of a disadvantage, rather than a big advantage out of nowhere, against which you could compare Leinster.

Your last point I'm not sure about - we haven't been bad for fifteen years or whatever journos want you to think. When we had Pienaar, Muller, Terreblanche etc we beat Munster at Thomond in Europe and faced Leinster in a Euro final. Why would I say we have historically had funding issues? It's now. We literally had to let our first choice 10 go to save money next season. Why are you interested in history? What the hell has our past NIQs got to do with that?

Dubinusa

It's like we're beating a dead horse. There's a gap in the provinces for sure and Leinster do have advantages.

Flipping the script a little. What advantages do Limerick hurlers have over everyone else? Why aren't Cork or Dublin competitive? They both have bigger demographics. Is there any reason why Dublin hurlers, with all the advantages of clubs etc, are complete failures.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032992#Comment_122032992

Because the very thing that’s driven the discussion is the central contract announcements this week, and Leinster announcing a 6 month NIQ signing.

Apparently these items are indications of some massive inbuilt irreversible structural advantage in Leinster’s favour.

The central contracts are purely a product of the quality of Leinster’s player production. That’s an area that wasn’t always anywhere close to as skewed as it now is.

People claim it’s purely driven by private schools, bigger population, weather population, big stadiums to move games to etc, but all of those things have largely always been a factor, and certainly were in the 2000’s when Munster were bulk supplier to Ireland.

There is an absolute refusal to acknowledge that Leinster prioritised and invested extensively in player development pathways well over 15 years ago and have been reaping the benefit of it ever since.

Ulster and Munster could have invested in just the same way, because god knows they’ve invested plenty in enriching various South African rugby players over the same timeframe.

Even this offseason - Ulster’s decision making is still utterly puzzling - we’re supposed to believe they couldn’t afford to retain Billy Burns if they wanted to, yet the best he could do was a one year deal at Munster, while somehow Ulster had the ability to go and sign another NIQ South African winger in Werner Kok.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032913#Comment_122032913

You've been a mod over a forum where there has been free rein to call Leinster chokers and they're regularly discussed as not being able to get over the hump, yet now they're taking steps to improve the team there is a complete freakout.

If the actions you want aren't going to materially affect Leinster then how the hell will it resolve your claim of inequity, especially spreading it across three provinces? You're making zero sense.

Paul Smeenus

Mate, I'm not sure anything you say there is anything I disagree with, and I'm pretty sure none of it I said.

I'm not responsible for"apparently", nor am I in charge of "people". In your last post you said that you didn't say anything about "the cost living" - that's fair enough. So I shut up. Now you're bombarding me with every perceived slight against Leinster you've heard. No interest.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033016#Comment_122033016

I'm genuinely curious if other posters are also not understanding the point I'm making?

As simply as I can put it, I think the money could be better spent elsewhere, that could have more material impact in the long run, while simultaneously not materially impacting Leinster.

If Leinster didn't sign Jordie Barrett, I think most people would agree they'd expect Leinster to be there at the business end of next season regardless. Right?

Now, if the reason Leinster can afford Jordie Barrett is because they have 10 players on a central contract, but all the other provinces only have 1 each, it's entirely reasonable for fans of other provinces to question if that money could be better spent elsewhere. Indeed, it's entirely reasonable for the IRFU to ask the same question.

Since this is the first time we've ever had such a dramatic imbalance in central contracts, it begs the question if such an imbalance was ever intended / expected in the first place. If it wasn't (and I don't think it was) then do you think a review seems pretty reasonable? I do.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032963#Comment_122032963

I was the person who raised the cost of living and responded to that post from you.

You're ignoring evidence in every corner of the world if you believe salaries are not usually lower in lower cost of living areas. Look at multi-nationals or even private companies in Ireland who have offices in different parts of the country.

Dublin is down as 30% more expensive than Belfast. If IRFU let provinces offer the same salary then Ulster should be significantly more attractive in monetary terms. For reference, 22% cheaper in Limerick and 18% in Galway.

Leinster players are already turning down significant money by staying with Leinster over moving. Doesn't help the case for those who think throwing money at the other provinces will fix their issues.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033026#Comment_122033026

I understand the point you're trying to make but you're being both hyperbolic about the current situation while offering a minor solution - which makes zero sense.

You're saying things are incredibly inequitable right now and if that is true then the impact of the value of the six month contract of Barrett split across the other three provinces would make absolutely no material difference.

You cant have immaterial change to one province split across the three provinces and it move the needle.

There either isn't the gulf you claim or to resolve it there needs to be changes to Leinster that impacts them significantly. You cant have it both ways.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033056#Comment_122033056

I've thought about this before but never asked. So this is a question to everyone but relates to your comment.

Ulster players who are resident in Belfast (i guess all or most) are british tax residents. Therefore they aren't eligible for the athlete tax rebate that's available in the south?

I think its a pretty substantial amount that you are eligible as long as you paid taxes in the south and finish your career there. Unless the irfu figured a workaround around that, that is actually a decent difference. I think it can be as much as one whole year in a lump sum.

Dubinusa

I can't get my head around this. I agree, that Leinster have advantages. I also agree that Leinster have provided a pathway that is unequaled probably anywhere. For the sake of "equality", what measures should be put in place to help the other provinces, while not destroying Leinster.

There's really no fix. Leinster players want to play for Leinster. It's fairly straightforward. Some will leave and improve other provinces. The tide will turn somewhat when Munsters young backrows are flourishing. Leinster have not produced any of note recently.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033095#Comment_122033095

I was thinking about this recently.

I honestly would make exactly one change. Loosen up on NIQs. I don't want leinster to have to move players, i don't want to curtail their budget, none of that.

I would make one policy change with some stipulations. The policy change is that each province is allowed 5 NIQs in ANY position with the following stipulations

• No more than one per position
• A limited number of regular season games played (maybe 15) and unlimited playoffs
• You have to be able to afford it and prove that to the irfu

This is for all provinces. I have no problem with leinster getting even better.

My main reason for this is that i literally do not think its possible for ulster or munster to win a european cup without more NIQs. I think we need to do a better job developing our own talent (and imo that is happening but it takes time for it to come through) but i just don't think we will ever be able to produce the number of homegrown elite players 1-23 that is required for a european cup. Especially evenly over a whole team position by position.

In fact, i honestly think that its probable that it will also be hard for leinster to do so in the future. The last 10 years for leinster have been a mix of fantastic management, a golden generation of players and honestly generally good chance (except for imo in close games). Henshaw, Lowe and JGP are all elite imports (that you developed in the latter two cases) but that's probably not happening again. There's no guarantee that the insane production of 5-10 years ago will continue. I absolutely believe leinster will always produce a great volume of players but i firmly believe that there is some element of chance to producing a ton of elite guys at the same time in any sport. Or producing them and most of them staying healthy, and so on.

To add on to that, all but one of the european cups won by irish teams were won by teams with more than the current 3 NIQs.

There are other benefits. Instead of waiting for an irish player to fill a glaring weakness, you can do so immediately. This will then expose your best young players to deep playoff runs and add to their development.
You also get more freedom to really build a team to suit any style, which would be fun to me. You also get to experimemt a tad more on NIQs which i feel like only connacht really do now.

Also, i honestly don't think it holds anyone back as long as there is a game limit. I think a really deep squad with lots of competition is actually the best environment.

Anyway, that's what i want. I kind of doubt it would happen but i think it would solve some problems, and it wouldn't hurt leinster or ireland at all imo.

pickarooney

Do tickets to sporting events really not have VAT in Ireland? How come?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033141#Comment_122033141

To encourage people to go to sporting events probably

pickarooney

Bizarre. Yet there's VAT on theatre productions and museums.

Edit: and VAT is higher if people dance at your concert 😅. What a country.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122032904#Comment_122032904

convert to euro? 😂

That’s a lot of money to get invested

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033114#Comment_122033114

that’s 20 players in Ireland NIQ

Nobody in IRFU or who think of the good of Irish rugby will want 20 NIQ in Ireland , that’s more or less taking an entire provincial team out of selection for Ireland

Also is throwing NIQ the answer? If you have that many the failure rate will be a lot higher so you will end up with a lot of overseas, highly paid , NIQ players who are not working out for the province

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122033095#Comment_122033095

I don't think people are calling for it to be equal (at least, I'm not). They're calling for it to be less inequitable.