Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Former Former Former

Do people not realise that provincial contracts are also funded by IRFU?

The practical differences are essentially zero.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025226#Comment_122025226

No. I haven't seen anybody suggest as much.

Hard to see how it ultimately boils down to anything else though.

There is only so much we can claim this is about the funding model. I don't personally think central contracts have such an outsized impact on provincial budgets as some people often surmise/claim, however ultimately the drive seems to be that Leinster should not be in a position to be able to afford all of their own players. The corollary to this is that some will inevitably have to leave - i.e. go to other provinces or abroad.

I am also a) under no illusions about the cost of Leinster's squad and b) not even saying the above is inherently a bad thing.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025248#Comment_122025248

There is allot of that! Never understood the centrally contracted players 'reward' for Leinster argument.

I would also say I'm not loving the Barrett signing either. He's not needed - 'NEED' by way of Thorn or Elsom.

Fatigue and injuries is really going to hit the Leinster/Irish forwards in 24/25-26. That's where The need will be for Leinster.

I'm assuming the primary reason for the IRFU ("Versatile") to sanction the move is that Leinster are going to be told to "sit-out" Keenan as much as possible when Barrett arrives.

PLUS the centre and wing (Outhalf? has he even played 10 games there?).

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2024/04/15/jordie-barrett-signs-short-term-deal-with-leinster-for-next-season/

PLUS he's a world class goal kicker.

https://www.world.rugby/tournaments/videos/638298/ultimate-rugby-challenges/ultimate-rugby-challenges-rugbys-longest-kick-elliot-daly-v-jordie-barrett

So from a Leinster point of view I completely understand the signing.

It's a bit luxury and it will rub people up the wrong way. It also somewhat erodes the 'homegrown' reputation of Leinster.

salmocab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025447#Comment_122025447

The thing is not one person here really understands how money is spent and used in the irfu. No one understands how the central contracts work how anything is really funded. It doesn’t stop everyone using it as a stick though. Leinster would have any amount to spend on the squad or gold toilets in Donnybrook if it was a simple as central contracts don’t affect their budget in any way.

Burkie1203

Its not that long ago Munster fielding teams with a mix of Du Toit, Rhys Marhsall, Taute, Grobler, Kleyn, De Allende, Fekitoa, Snyman, Arno Botha, Cloete, Mathewson, Stander, Saili, Bleyendaal, yes i know a few were project players etc but when your 4-8 and 9/10/12/13 are South African or Kiwi, its not exactly aiding player development, which is odd as one prominent Munster twitter account seems to be overly concerned with the player development at Leinster. The one thing Leinster have got right in the last 10 years is player development. The provinces can never rely on 100% indigenous self produced players. James Lowe gave an interview on OTB a few years back about how he fitted into the Leinster setup and one point he made was NZ rugby has players from all sorts of backgrounds, but Leinster had a vast number from the schools background but it helps the squad to have a few imports. We have also seen that at coaching level with Lancaster Nienaber, Felipe etc.

Munster have gone through phases of Mafi/Tipoki,, Saili/Taute at centre. The justification put forward was they will be mentoring younger players. But who have they produced in that time? Rory Scannell? Yet in recent times its been De Allende, Fekitoa, Nankivell, Frisch since those two combinations previously mentioned.

Awec made the point about Munsters 1-10 of the noughties being a freak occurrence, maybe it was due to the AIL heyday back around then but what did they do to benefit from that in the long term? Was there an assumption that this would never end?

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025394#Comment_122025394

They don't take the URC seriously for starters

How did you deduce that? And please give me more than just "Leo played a weakened team against Munster last year" because we know that was due to scheduling. The Champions Cup is a priority but its utter nonsense and untrue to say that they don't take it seriously.

Leinster have been one of the top 3, if no top 2, teams in Europe over the past 5 or 6 years.

There's no prizes for being second or third best so its irrelevant how close they came. Other team's fans would be the first to point out that Leinster have won nothing in Europe in a long time and have underachieved, so that argument doesn't hold.

It wasn't because of lack of quality that they didn't get over the line.

I mean….It is…. But that's beside the point. We're not going to win a Champions Cup because of Jordi Barrett or RG Snyman. They may contribute to the effort but its overwhelmingly the players that Leinster have developed from the Academy or through the player-pathway system that have gotten them where they are and will get them where they're going.

Unrelated to your post, I think Munster and Ulster need to look a bit closer to home than blaming Leinster, the IRFU and Central Contracts for their woes.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025420#Comment_122025420

Do you think Sexton would have returned if the IRFU told him he had to go Ulster, Munster or Connacht?

sydthebeat

i would absolutely love to see a breakdown of the IRFU finances which show income provided to the ledger by each individual province. I think certain vociferous fans would be shut up very quickly if they saw exactly how much net contribution leinster make to IRFU income compared to their preferred province. But, thankfully for some, we dont get to see those figures.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025017#Comment_122025017

Look at Kitsoff, expensive yes. Even if we took his salary and spent it elsewhere, our squad would still not come within an asses roar of yours. Not even close. It's a red herring.

Rob's ginger brother?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025474#Comment_122025474

How did you deduce that? And please give me more than just "Leo played a weakened team against Munster last year" because we know that was due to scheduling

He was absolutely not forced into that decision - it was two games a week after each other. Scheduling did not force him into that. I would not go as far as claiming they don't take it seriously, but that went far beyond simply prioritising the Champions Cup.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025491#Comment_122025491

Of course not - he was a seasoned pro in his prime. But if the structures are put in place so that it's youth players moving, that dynamic changes completely.

Dont Be at It

Disagree with premise of your first two points. On your third point... Why sign them them, if they're not going to win you a European cup?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025474#Comment_122025474

sydthebeat

i think Murray Kinsella had a very good idea on the latest 42 podcast in regard to NIQ signings. His point was basically that teams should be allowed sign a second NIQ as a replacement for an outgoing NIQ in the same position. The point being that its a disincentive for that province to produce a player in that position over the period of the first NIQ.

So for example Leinster shouldnt be allowed sign an NIQ to replace Ala'alatoa. Munster shouldnt be allowed sign Nankiville after Fekitoa, Ulster shouldnt be allowed to sign Vermeulen after Coetzee etc.

Its an interesting point which i agree with.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025500#Comment_122025500

Hang on, I never said forced.

He took a gamble leaving out a few front-line players that didn't pay off. And lets not forget, we were one knock-on from winning that game.

Let's revisit that team:

LEINSTER: Jimmy O’Brien, Tommy O’Brien, Robbie Henshaw, Charlie Ngatai, Dave Kearney, Harry Byrne, Luke McGrath (capt), Michael Milne, Rónan Kelleher, Michael Ala’alatoa, Ryan Baird, Jason Jenkins, Max Deegan, Will Connors, Jack Conan. Replacements: John McKee, Cian Healy, Thomas Clarkson, Joe McCarthy, Josh van der Flier, Nick McCarthy, Ciarán Frawley, Liam Turner.

Is that a bad team that's not taking the tournament seriously?

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025150#Comment_122025150

If players have no incentive to move elsewhere (and all these examples support that) then why do they need central contracts? A normal Leinster contract should suffice.

The whole CC thing is a bit nebulous. I'm not sure anyone fully understands how the IRFU budget works and a lot of discussion goes on under false assumptions.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025525#Comment_122025525

I agree. I've never argued one way or the other on central contracts and I agree entirely that they're nebulous.

There's a good chance that if central contracts didn't exist, the players would still be exactly where they are now - so using central contracts to beat Leinster or the IRFU with with is utterly futile.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025524#Comment_122025524

Is that a bad team?

I think it is a team that wasn't taking the gravity of the competition seriously yes.

I think, obviously, part of this stems from having won it in close to a procession 4 times in a row and being maniacally focused on the Champions Cup. I wouldn't expect them to do it again this year in the same situation tbh.

theVersatile

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024816#Comment_122024816

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024238#Comment_122024238

I must admire your commitment to winding people up Burkie that you included Te Aihe Toma, an NPC (at best) level scrumhalf who played a grand total of about ten minutes in a RaboDirect game against some cannon fodder team.

Including the likes of Blyendaal, Stander, Gallagher and Haley who all are (or became) IQ is ludicrous. Imagine if we tried to claim Lowe and JGB were a big name signings!

Omitting Synman and De Allende, who were the works of JPs 1014 Consortium and not subject to any IRFU money, who was the last signing to be off the standard of Barrett and Synman? Probably Howlett/Botha/JDV/Cullen - all from "back in the day"

(Fekitoa was perceived as well last his prime after Toulon and Wasps, even if he did play quite well for us for a finish. He'd be the most likely rebuttal to that argument about the standard of NIQs we've signed with IRFU money. Du Tout I don't believe was anywhere near the Springboks at the time.)

You mentioned Nankivell earlier as an excuse for "Munster can't complain" as if Nankivell wasn't a bit part Super Rugby player before he arrived.

Ye also both forgot Jean Deysel, for what it's worth. (EDIT: And Kiran McDonnell, but I also think that injury cover signings are also not really the same thing - unless they signed on again for a longer period a la Taute)

Regardless, @awec basically hit the nail on the head with his post last night so I don't know what further I can add. The system is designed to keep the top team at the top, simple as. Refusing to acknowledge it is just serious mental gymnastics.

That's without going into international selection policy, but that's for the Irish thread I think :).

Side note: I think it's clear by now that this is far from a Munster fan issue, which I think most posters bar a couple seem to acknowledge. Ulster fans aren't pleased at all, while Connacht fans are just used to being the runt of the litter and are too caught up in their ongoing depression to care.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025555#Comment_122025555

The system is designed to keep the top team at the top, simple as

The system doesn't actively punish the team at the top, that's essentially it.

You can argue that it should be more distributive but that is not the same argument as claiming the system is designed to suit or boost one team.

theVersatile

On an additional note (and likely my last), the allocation of NIQs by position is also a weird one.

Leinster had three international seconds rows and three international centres (excluding Frawley and JOB, which would be a stretch tbf), and they have been given NIQs in those positions. I think a THP I could get over, given there isn't much going on behind Furlong.

It just seems a bit backwards.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025568#Comment_122025568

Well, it does. By fluke or by accident, the system DOES boost one team.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025517#Comment_122025517

The begs the fundamental question of "What are the provinces for?"

If they are exclusively to develop and produce players for the National team then yes the above makes sense , however if the goal is for the Provinces to be successful and win things then it becomes a more complex decision process.

In reality , the goal is to try to do both things - Develop players for the National team AND be successful at URC/CC level.

That will sometimes mean having so called "luxury" players in the squad or not forcing the distribution of players between provinces and so on.

For example , if Leinster were required to offload a bunch of players like Penny, Deegan, Frawley, Milne etc. - All names frequently bandied about as players who "should move" or "be moved" , would that make Leinster more likely to win things?

Would it make the recipient Provinces more likely to win things?

Or would it just make all of them more likely to be "Almost but not quite" teams?

The system isn't perfect and is never going to make everyone happy , but it's what we've got and in terms of a Country with less than 200 Professional players it's working overall.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025554#Comment_122025554

Well I think we can reasonably agree to disagree on that one. That team was good enough to beat Munster and likely would have on another day but fell agonisingly short. It's a squad game and they didn't throw out 23 Academy players.

On the second point, they were unceremoniously dumped out in the semi-final the year before so I don't buy that there wasn't a hunger to reclaim the title.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025569#Comment_122025569

clearly the deal is "when we have our international lads away with ireland, and have their minutes managed during the season, we want to have decent level replacements in their to aid our young lads."

Leinster could have up to have 20 players away in ireland camps, that leaves 24 players for leinster to work with on match days. Leinster ROUTINELY bring academy players into URC match days when test players are away. Its actually a big success of the system Leinster employ. These lads need to have guidance and leadership on the field, be it a Jason jenkins, Hayden Triggs, Kirchner, Nacewa etc

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025589#Comment_122025589

??

none of that has anything to do with Kinsellas NIQ point

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025517#Comment_122025517

This was part of the NIQ rules brought in back in 2011, that you could not renew an NIQ nor could you sign another in the same position. It was quietly done away with a few years later.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024223#Comment_122024223

I’d be pretty sure they’re the reward. We haven’t made big name signing much over the last decade or so. Like, when Munster were bringing in Snyman and DDA, Leinster were bringing in Jenkins and Ngatai. We’ve been bringing in big numbers into the Aviva a couple of dozen times over the last 10 years or so. That’s a huge amount of revenue, little of which has gone on foreign signings. Even guys like JGP and Lowe wouldn’t have been recognised names when they were signed.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025629#Comment_122025629

I disagree - If we say "You can't sign two consecutive players in the same position" then we are saying the primary purpose of the Province is to develop players for the national team but if you allow that multiple signing then perhaps you are helping that team "win things" so I think the point is definitely connected.

It's a balance between both so hard rules around who you can sign and when maybe don't work..

theVersatile

In other news...

Moloney to Bath confirmed

https://twitter.com/BathRugby/status/1780174314282615265?t=hxQ5dkuexqXZGbC9cOOdfg&s=19

Burkie1203

I have already acknowledged that some of those signings were project players etc but the bottom line is players have been signed by Munster from the southern hemisphere in vast quantities. Munster have had plenty of latitude from IRFU with signings.

Just because De Allende and RGS were paid by a benefactor doesnt take away from the reality of signing RWC winners while now complaining about another province signing RWC winners. Mental gymnastics at its finest. If Fekitoa was well past his prime, why not give that game time to some one else? Scannell maybe? I have no issue with provinces signing players but when one province justify it with "they buy into the province" and "he will help develop players" and then the next centre after Taute and Saili are Fekitoa, De Allende, Nankivell, Frisch then you really cannot complain. All of them are centres and cannot play anywhere else. Jordie Barrett can play 10-15 basically.