Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

Dubinusa

Off the Barrett angle. Exeter got whipped by Toulouse. It's also worth noting that neither Dunne or R.O.L played.

Dubinusa

Finally watching the match!!

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024525#Comment_122024525

Can you humm it?

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024525#Comment_122024525

Any words? They've all blended into 1 for me at this stage.

Neil3030

I've figured it out.

Rassie sent Nienabar to get intel on the Irish setup.

Now Razor can get two-for-one intel by sending Barrett to Leinster.

Random Bloke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024238#Comment_122024238

Q: How many munster players does it take to change a light bulb?

A: More imports

You see whatever the question is regarding munster players, the answer is always more imports.

ironingbored

https://twitter.com/GifsRugbyNStuff/status/1779966139373666808?t=NiyQGIAe5fEhLQkxtiEEdg&s=19

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024223#Comment_122024223

I'm not doubting that Leinster make money. I'm just wondering whether signings like this are the reason or the reward.

There's not really an argument to be made here. Leinster sold 51,000 tickets in the Aviva in five days, a week after getting 40,000 in the gate. That's a lot of ticket money and getting to the semi-finals means a) lots more tickets and b) a fair chunk of EPCR prize money.

And the highest profile NIQ in the 23 was Michael Alaalatoa.

So, "signings like this" aren't the reason Leinster bring in lots of money. Not remotely.

The only way Irish provinces can ever compete is through home-grown talent and the occasional project or granny-rule player. Leinster have hit an incredible run of talent production and very savvy (but pretty low-budget) acquisitions, there's nothing else to it.

I appreciate that this has hit a lot of nerves but there isn't a pattern here. I'm struggling to remember the last really big name we signed. Scott Fardy in 2017 is about the best I can come up with, not exactly a global superstar, unless I'm missing someone major? So we don't really get rewarded too often either.

awec

Rant incoming.

The problem is the system is self-fulfilling from a Leinster point of view. Leinster have what, 10 or 11 players on central deals now? Anyone who suggests this doesn't have any impact is talking through their hoop IMO.

The Leinster squad is massively subsidised by the IRFU. Yea you develop your own players, etc etc etc. Yes, using an incredibly wealthy private school system, and then once those players pop out of college and into the Leinster team the money is always found to ensure they stay in place. Not too many club teams out there who could afford to have the majority of the national team as their starting team plus a few guests. Kudos of course for developing them, but the number one reason that this happens is money.

All of this "Leinster rarely sign big names" is a total red herring. The Leinster squad is, unquestionably, one of the most expensive squads in world rugby. I think we should be honest about that. There's a notion that Saturday's game was some David vs Goliath story, in reality it was big money club vs big money club. That's fair enough but it should be called for what it is.

This year they went out and signed the World Cup winning head coach to be an assistant to Leo Cullen. They've signed a 2 time World Cup winning springbok second row to warm the bench. They've now signed one of the best backs in the world who again, might not even make the 23. And they're in the market for a prop, and you can guarantee that this prop isn't going to be signed from the Sydney Fisherman's 3rd XV because he happens to have an Irish granny.

Meanwhile others are having to trim squads to save money. We're operating in different realities here.

All of this waffle about "other provinces need to develop more players" is so ludicrous, it's like Bill Gates telling a min wage worker that to improve their lot they just need to get better at playing the stock market. Money follows money.

Leinster go far in Europe and sell out the Aviva cause they have massive money behind the squad, which brings in more money, which means spending more money, which means going far in Europe and selling out the Aviva, which brings in more money, which means spending more money, which means going far in Europe and selling out the Aviva, which brings in more money, and on and on and on and on we go.

The IRFU are obviously happy for this to be the case. Why wouldn't they be? Team Ireland are going well, at least one team is doing well at club level, why would they give a crap that the gap between the haves and have nots is widening?

So long as the system is run like this it is impossible for any other province to usurp Leinster. Impossible. Literally pissing into the wind. Our pockets just aren't deep enough.

I keep hearing about Munster in the 00s. Munster in the 00s were very good by sheer luck of having an exceptional group of players come through at the same time. Once those players aged they couldn't sustain it. It's absolutely nothing like Leinster today because today the problem is systemic. The system is designed to suit Leinster (on purpose or by fluke), you would be hard pressed to design a system that suits Leinster more perfect than the one you have today.

Unless there's some unprecedented episode of mismanagement or monumental change in IRFU policy Leinster's position at the top of Irish rugby is under no threat at all, it literally doesn't matter one jot what anyone else does; they aren't going to ever come close.

I have accepted a few things:

1. Ulster will never win another European cup, because it's simply impossible for us under the current funding model to do so.
2. Like Munster in 2023, Ulster will only ever win a URC if Leinster are distracted (and pigs fly etc) .

I've made peace with this. It helps. But it genuinely does get to the stage where you have to wonder what is the point, when it becomes abundantly clear that your club is being run just to make up the numbers while the other club run by your club's owners is dining at the top table.

I don't expect any Leinster fans to care though, I wouldn't if I was one. You lads can quite rightly enjoy being in a place that the rest of us can only dream of.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024552#Comment_122024552

Not saying Ngatai played poorly.

However, out of the balance of probabilities given their history Barrett would have likely played even better.

Dubinusa

I thought Frawley played a blinder! My motm.

Dubinusa

So should Leinster not develop players? Should they allow the other provinces 1st dibs at these players? Can the union force these players to go elsewhere? Would this help Leinster? Do any of these lads want to play elsewhere? There's really no fix. Ulster have not developed an Ulster born forward since Henderson. Things look better now though. I understand the frustration and maybe the central contract system is outdated?

RichieRich_89

Taking the Barrett signing purely as a standalone event I don't really get the provincial angle (unless you're a Connacht fan maybe). If you talk about star, world class NIQs Leinster will have Snyman and Barrett next season. Munster had Snyman and de Allende relatively recently, and similar with Ulster having Vermeulen and Kitshoff. Of course, playing in a better team it's more likely there'll be more big performances and wow moments, so they'll seem more prominent for Leinster.

I do think it's a questionable signing all the same. People can say it's only for 6 months, but that amount of time can sometimes be crucial for a player who isn't fully established. It'll hardly make a difference to a Henshaw or a Ringrose or a Keenan if they get pushed out of the team for a few matches. But featuring in one or two big games could really make a difference for a Brownlee or even potentially a Frawley. Osborne is in a far better place in terms of having a body of work he can point to after starting against the Bulls and La Rochelle.

We'll see what happens, I suppose.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024731#Comment_122024731

As I said before, I understand the disgruntlement of Ulster fans but that is a rant that has rewritten history to suit the narrative you feel is right. It is true Ulster have never gotten the same love from the IRFU but the province can barely go a season without making a terrible hire or signing that knocks you back.

While Leinster spent years building up their success from being a laughing stock, Munster completely squandered their 'luck' and their significant IRFU subsidies during that period. I agree, Irish sides aren't David - the whole Munster narrative is false that they were a 'David' when in the 00s they had the Irish 1-10, in an era where that is where the game was mostly won, and they supplemented it with signing some of the best players in the world in their backs. They had an enormous fanbase and corporate sponsorship and rather than moving with professionalism and investing in their system to ensure the continued growth, the Munster leadership naval gazed and let it all slip away. A clear example is sticking with split training facilities for years for internal political reasons when it was clear it was a ridiculous way for a professional team to develop their players, especially their young ones. There is absolutely no surprise that Munster are now producing far higher quality of young players having finally moved into professionalism.

If you told a Leinster fan in the early '00s that we'd be in this spot 20 years later they'd have laughed you out the door. Leinster were openly mocked (Ladyboys), playing in front of 3 men and their dog, got changed in portacabins, were unable to keep their players from leaving to go to the UK to play, and even a sizeable proportion of their own province fanbase supported another one (Lunsters). Leinster do have some natural advantages over the other provinces, however your version of history completely belittles the fantastic work Leinster have done over the last 20 years, the hard work and smart decisions while other provinces were shooting themselves in the foot over and over again.

The bitterness of opposing fans shows exactly how far we've come. We haven't won a trophy in years and there's more focus on how to drag Leinster down than looking at the faults of their own province and the steps they can take to improve.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024761#Comment_122024761

Well said!

pickarooney

Who was the last big name foreign (NIQ) signing that came in and significantly improved a province?

Thorn? Coetzee when he eventually got fit? Fardy if you could call him a big name?

Rootsblower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024238#Comment_122024238

You forgot Jean de Villiers, Doug Howlett, Rua Tipoki,Christian Cullen,Lifeimi Mafi, Gary Connolly , Brian Carney , Sam Tuitipou ,Jim Williams, John Langford though the latter was way back in the mists of time. So yea I think our southern brothers who are moaning about us signing JB on a short term deal need to look back over their own previous history. A lot of the above were signed during the Munster heyday also.

IMO Barrett and Snyman have been signed because of cotton wooling of potential Lions tourists come business end of next season.

Now for a top class NIQ tight head to complete the team even just to hear the jealous comments.

The accusations of buying trophies have started but the Academy produced 18 of the 23 last Saturday so f*** the begrudgers.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024223#Comment_122024223

the big name over seas signing for years haven’t been made by Leinster, they have gone to Munster and Ulster.

Rootsblower

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024731#Comment_122024731

Nice post in a respectful manner made there. I would say as a long time Leinster fan that Leinster are now a self fulfilling prophecy. Talent breeds success which breeds money which breeds more talent.

My friend works for Siemens in Germany. He says the company ethos is to grow Siemens by 2-3% per year every year, that’s the last 20 years at Leinster. Now it’s time to reap the rewards.

1 caveat to ur point also is what goes up must come down and make no mistake about it there will come a time when there will be lean years for Leinster. I don’t know when that will be but it will happen. I hope some of the Leinster fans gloating online slagging of their provincial brothers will be just as vocal defending their province when the lean times come but I suspect their support will fade away then. I would love to see the other provinces have a bit more success but I suspect it’s a long way off at the Champions Cup level.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023885#Comment_122023885

He has been superb for them, an absolute cornerstone of their success.

But I wouldn't want him now. He worked hard at the weekend but didn't look like the player he was at all. Threw himself into multiple rucks but was managed very well by Leinster and he was a complete non-entity in the loose.

I believe he has signed up for another season in LAR but it looked like the legs are starting to go at the weekend.

salmocab

I think the story has grown legs but ultimately all that’s happening is Leinster are replacing 3 NIQs with 3 NIQs in the same positions. That’s assuming a tighthead is also added. Now to be fair the 2 announcements are upgrades on the player they are replacing. I don’t think though that this is some move that pushes Leinster over the top into some sort of super team that will smite all around with the their laser eyes, it should just push them on a bit.

Buer

Love how sneaky/subtle this is from Jenkins. Makes a great tackle on Alldritt whilst taking out the support player which allows Porter win the poach penalty.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024731#Comment_122024731

Hang on. Appreciate this was a 1am post but the point about "Leinster rarely sign big names" is not a red herring, it was a direct rebuttal of a claim that Leinster do indeed sign lots of big names and this is the reason for our success.

I understand that Ulster fans are angry, but there's a reality to be faced here. You can take digs at me like "All of this waffle about "other provinces need to develop more players" is so ludicrous," - it's not ludicrous, this is the cold hard fact of the Irish rugby system.

From where I'm sitting, the IRFU is doing all it can to help Ulster within the confines of the current system. Maybe I missed the bit in your post where you acknowledge how much it must have cost to get Kitshoff over here, or Vermeulen, Coetzee or Piutau, the most expensive signing ever to rock up here, among a cast of thousands of other imports. That these guys have - mostly - turned out to be pretty underwhelming signings isn't the fault of anyone in the IRFU.

All of your points about the "advantages" Leinster have are fair, what's not fair is your abuse of us Leinster fans for claiming that we don't have these advantages or pretending that every province can follow the same model. No one has claimed either of these things so it's you who is throwing red herrings around.

But what's the solution? Based on the problems you have identified, there are three options;

1. Give the same number of central contracts to each province - then you'll have mediocre guys getting them while genuine stars don't, based purely on geography, which sort of defeats the purpose. A rubbish player doesn't become a legend overnight because his contract is printed on a different headed paper.
2. Distribute the players on central contracts evenly around the provinces - not a great way to keep your star players happy, which again defeats the purpose of keeping your key talent happy and in Ireland.
3. Keep plugging away, try to develop indigenous talent better and top it up with signings - i.e. the status quo.

Like it or not, option 3 is the only one that stands up to any scrutiny. There just isn't an alternative without junking the entire system and starting again with some sort of regional franchise system. Next Welsh guy you see, ask him how that's working for them.

People need to relax a bit here. Barrett is coming for six months. He's coming because he has a sabbatical, he spent time in Leinster as a kid, and maybe he wants a shot at picking up silverware while he's on his holidays. This isn't an extension of the dominance of the evil empire, he'll be gone before we know it.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024751#Comment_122024751

Nobody anywhere has said that leinster should stop producing players. But people cant expect the other provinces to be able to get near what leinster do produce because of where the players are coming from. Yes irfu could do more to get players from leinster to move especially guys who do play very little. Players are moved on all the time who want to stay in their current team be it soccer/rugby thats the life of a pro sports athlete.

Buer

Personally, whilst I'll be glued to Barrett's debut when it happens, I'd be far more pleased if Leinster went out and identified a proper out and out winger who was 21-24 years old and they could mould into the team similar to how far Lowe has come in the last 5 years.

Once upon a time, Connacht had signed a deal for a 21 year old Sevu Reece which they pulled the plug on. I'd be fully on board if Leinster sought to develop a replacement for Lowe in such a manner (who isn't a thug).

It's hard to identify where the significant gaps are in the Leinster 23 but a 15/12 type player isn't really the spot. There's going to be a gap at tighthead next season and there's a potential drop off in wing play coming down the line in the next 2-3 seasons. There's also a big gap at scrum half looming large but, given that is applicable to the national team also, I'd imagine they'd find it difficult to get approval from the IRFU for someone in that position.

Ideally, if we're to replace the 3 NIQ players, I'd have wanted something along the lines of:

Jenkins contract goes to Snyman

Ala'alatoa's contract goes to Neethling Fouché (Stormers tighthead who rotates in and out with Malherbe and is their sometime captain).

Ngatai's contract goes to a young back three player who can be developed. There are well regarded players in NZ who would fit the bill that are breaking into the Super Rugby teams but might have to wait several years to be in the conversation for a NZ call up and fancy a change of scenery.

Hey_Ho_Lets_Go_3

there is a LOT of talent at wing coming through the underage system..

Madeoface

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024810#Comment_122024810

Rocky. Best niq signing ever. Pretty much won the HC on his own that year.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024903#Comment_122024903

Isa was. He won 4 HC

randomname2005

Have mixed feelings about the JB signing, but I think it could be excellent for the upcoming out halves, having a world class player at 12 for guidance, drive, and support could be great for their development

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024924#Comment_122024924

Best NIQ signing, but doesn't fit the bill of a big name signing. One Fiji cap and relatively unknown. If it's Elsom, it's going back 16 years. That's a long time waiting for any ROI on a big signing.