Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XII (The Byrne Supremacy)

pickarooney

I feel like the things Jordie (and Beauden even moreso) can do are not really teachable.

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122023762#Comment_122023762

Barrett won't be coming off the bench.

conquestscarer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024880#Comment_122024880

Davit Niniashvili is the player you're looking for here. IS a superstar in top14 but has zero big name recognition anywhere else. Not a player we would be able to keep long term unfortunately.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024847#Comment_122024847

Look at Kitsoff, expensive yes. Even if we took his salary and spent it elsewhere, our squad would still not come within an asses roar of yours. Not even close. It's a red herring.

Yes, we've made mistakes with signings, it's our fault but it's also the IRFUs. They sign off on whoever we sign, they are ultimately the money men.

As for the "the IRFU are doing all they can to help Ulster" (or, indeed Munster or Connacht), I don't really think this is true. If this were true, the IRFU would be recognising that 3 of their provinces are falling further and further behind their bigger, richer cousin every year and taking urgent steps to counteract that.

If the IRFU were doing all they could, they would be prioritising investment in Munster, Ulster and Connacht and trying to catch them up. If they were doing all they could, Leinster would be laughed out of the room when they came asking to spend money on a luxury signing like Jordie Barrett, as that money could be better spent elsewhere. Why are the IRFU paying 10/11 Leinster players central contracts so they can sign Jordie Barrett when their other 3 clubs barely have a pot to piss in? If they were doing all they could, 3 of the 4 Ireland 10s would not be sitting in Dublin. The list goes on.

The "try to develop more talent" is the exact reason why this system will not work. Nobody else will ever come close to Leinster's output. So the more talent plus a few big signings is a convenient model as it puts a ceiling on the other 3 clubs that's far below the ceiling of Leinster, your position will never be under threat.

The IRFU are doing all they can, so long as whatever they do doesn't hurt the Leinster gravy train. This is a big difference.

But again, I've made peace with this, and I honestly don't expect any of you to have any emotions on this other than to be enjoying the ride.

For me, the only hope I can cling to is that when Nucifora exits stage left and Humphreys comes in that this charade is torn to pieces.

salmocab

Jesus Christ this is some statement

Yes, we've made mistakes with signings, it's our fault but it's also the IRFUs. They sign off on whoever we sign, they are ultimately the money men.

Managing to shift some blame to the irfu on making poor signings. They back you to sign a World Cup winner and somehow when it doesn’t work out the irfu should shoulder some blame. This is mental gymnastics of the highest order.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122024544#Comment_122024544

That sounds about right to me. Munster certainly had a majority at one point. I don't think it was ever quite as lopsided as it is now, is my only point.

Dont Be at It

I think more needs to be done to divy up the central contracts a bit more evenly. I'm not saying give them to lesser players at the other provinces but there should be strong incentive to encourage the central contract players to move. We're a tiny country, geographically speaking, so it's not a big ask imo.

I think the current model is going to see a bigger and more permanent gap appear between leinster and the other provinces and that's not good for Irish rugby in the long run.

bingobango12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025055#Comment_122025055

It’s just easier to ignore all the crying.
Ulster had Pieraar, Coetzee, Piutau and Leali’ifano. Munster had Snyman, De Allende, Jenkins, Cloete all very recently in their squad at the same time. Nobody was moaning and crying then. Leinster have Barrett for 6 months replacing Ngatai and Snyman replacing Jenkins.

Ulster seem to regularly produce good promising looking young players who never kick on. Munster haven’t produced a decent front row or centre in donkeys years. No doubt this is the big bad IRFU and Leinsters fault.

The only one who has any argument in any of this is Connacht. But again, when 16 of their current squad went through the Leinster system, it’s hard to feel sorry for any of them.

AdamD

I think the idea that Munster and Ulster are 'Davids' would get rightfully sniggered at by the English/Scottish/Welsh.

I'm not fully sure what the other provinces want though - sure No Snyman or Barrett, but they were complaining long before those two were signed. I've seen complaints about Leinster keeping their second string players, but who would Munster/Ulster actually want? Frawley is the only one they don't turn their nose up at. We often see complaints about Leinster having so many back rows, but I don't see teams jumping for Penny or Deegan either. Do they want the IRFU to start moving Leinster starters around now too?

I'd be perfectly fine if Leinster didn't sign the two NIQ players, but after that I'm not really sure what changes can be made beyond that.

Is it Leinster's fault that Ulster didn't offer a contract to their best 10, but instead have signed an NIQ winger?

abff

I see the pricing of tickets for the semi final has been announced.

Category	Price
Premium	€90
Category 1	€75
Category 2	€55
Category 3	€38
Category 4	€18

I’ve been trying to find out where the seats are under each category. Category 4 is Hill 16, but so far I have been unable to identify where the seats are for the other categories.

50HX

I would assume hogan is premium

Lower hogan & cusack is cat 1

Canal end is cat 2

UUpper Tiers cat 3

That'd be my guess

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025076#Comment_122025076

The players can be encouraged until the cows come home but if someone has spent their entire life in Dublin, are surrounded by their friends and family, and enjoy living there, there's a very good chance they're not going to want to uproot their lives and move to Cork/Limerick, Belfast or Galway and play for an underperfoming team. And if they're playing well enough or have the potential, they're of course going to want to play for the best team and give themselves the best opportunity to be successful. Conversely, they can't be forced either as that's not good for anyone. So spreading out central contracts is a nice idea in theory, but it would be an arbitrarily pointless exercise and probably do more to harm the game both at provincial and national level the way things are at present - you'd have to hard reset the entire structure to make it work.

The reality is that we've signed Jordie Barrett on a six month deal to replace an outgoing Kiwi so whilst hell have a positive impact, he's not going to materially improve the team but some posters are treating it like we've signed Dupont or Penaud on a ten year contract.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025095#Comment_122025095

I'm not fully sure what the other provinces want though - sure No Snyman or Barrett, but they were complaining long before those two were signed.

It's not so much the signings as the root cause to make these signings viable.

Yes, part of the reason Leinster can afford them is because of home attendances in the knock-out stages. But a large part of the reason is also because the IRFU are paying the wages of 9 guys who play in those knock-out games.

And as far as I can make out, the number of central contracts is the most skewed it's ever been.

I've seen complaints about Leinster keeping their second string players, but who would Munster/Ulster actually want? Frawley is the only one they don't turn their nose up at. We often see complaints about Leinster having so many back rows, but I don't see teams jumping for Penny or Deegan either.

There are a good number of players who the other provinces would want. I'm not saying they should move, or even be leaned on my the IRFU to move, but it's just not accurate to say Frawley is the only one the other Provinces don't turn their noses up at.

Do they want the IRFU to start moving Leinster starters around now too?

No. I haven't seen anybody suggest as much.

I'd be perfectly fine if Leinster didn't sign the two NIQ players, but after that I'm not really sure what changes can be made beyond that.

I'm not sure either. But there absolutely is a large imbalance that has been trending that way for awhile and seems to be growing.

crisco10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025150#Comment_122025150

The other issue about "spreading" other players away from Leinster is that, apart from Connacht again, there are very few success stories. A lot of players have seen their career stagnate or decline once they leave Leinster (eg. Carbery, Murphy, McGrath). There are plenty of reasons for this, but it still creates a perception.

Beirne and Alan O'Connor/Eric O'Sullivan would be the most successful Leinster exports in terms of consistency for Munster or Ulster?

What is also being missed in all this reporting is that Ngatai will be leaving. So Barrett for half season (probably on say 60% of the money of a full year deal), is probably closer to cost neutral compared to today than you think.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025150#Comment_122025150

The reality is that we've signed Jordie Barrett on a six month deal to replace an outgoing Kiwi so whilst hell have a positive impact, he's not going to materially improve the team 

That's the point tho; if Jordie Barrett isn't going to materially improve the team, that as much as anything speaks of the imbalance in the system at the moment.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025150#Comment_122025150

Not all Leinster players are from Dublin and even if they are I'm not sure why they couldn't move for a few years. Tens of thousands of young people from the rest of ireland have to go to Dublin to get work so why couldn't the opposite work.

I'm not necessarily saying move settled first team players. But perhaps put a draft type system in place where provinces get a prorated pick of the best young players coming through.

jonok28

I keep looking at the Jordie Barrett signing and yes he is a direct Charlie Ngatai replacement who is capable of playing 10 through 15 but if Frawley ends up staying at Leinster next season, I can see Leinster using Barrett mostly on the Right Wing and inside center. For me if everyone is healthy and available, you put Barrett on the right wing. Imagine Barrett's boot on the right wing and Lowes on the left…..

If Leinster can now land Tupou or a improvement over Ala'alatoa, then they will be absolutely ridiculous to watch next season.

hold my beer

It sounds like the other Province's fans would be willing to make Ireland worse by changing the way cc's are distributed. That's the only thing I can gather from all the crying.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025017#Comment_122025017

Even if we took his salary and spent it elsewhere, our squad would still not come within an asses roar of yours. Not even close. It's a red herring.

Hang on (again). At no point did I say anything about budgets matching, so once again the person throwing red herrings around is you.

The point about Kitshoff is that money was made available to sign a very good player. After that, it's up to Ulster to get the best out of him. The issue is that this very good player, fresh out of winning a World Cup, turns around 3/4 months later and he wants to leave? There is something very wrong with this picture and it's nothing to do with Leinster. Throwing more money (or players) at the problem without fixing it isn't the solution.

The "try to develop more talent" is the exact reason why this system will not work. 

It won't work as a quick fix, no. It will be years before it shows results, because the current mess is years in the making. It will take patience and no small amount of vision - but it is 100% the only solution.

Your alternative solution is to handicap the club that has been run well to help the one that has been run into the ground not by Nucifora or IRFU but by Ulster themselves. This is going back ten or twelve years and it has been a sh1t show for the duration.

But look, if you think Nucifora is the issue, let's see what happens when Humphreys gets into the hot seat.

And please, please stop saying you've made peace with it. You very clearly have not.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025237#Comment_122025237

I agree. But we're assuming that the other provinces had a horse in the race here. Perhaps Jordie said he'd happily play for Leinster but he had no interest in the other provinces.

Rugbyf565

Nienaber and Jordie working together will be special. Additionally signing Bleyendaal as a back room coach would be the icing on the cake.

salmocab

I wonder is this signing in some small part or at least the timing a boost for ST sales. They are likely to take a hit if the move to the aviva is happening. The renewal announcement is long overdue and I suspect people aren’t going to be happy with the plan.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025246#Comment_122025246

Of course but you can broadly assume a large proportion grew up in Dublin, but of course not all of them.

The issue with your suggestion is that players aren't chattel, it's a slippery slope to start forcing young players around the country if they're not interested. And if they're good enough to be centrally contracted, they're also also good enough to say no thanks to being forced to another province and instead go abroad.

Zeugnis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025095#Comment_122025095

Leinster have earned their rewards. Gate income from Saturday's match alone would exceed Barrett's fee, and it sounds like he specifically wanted to come to Leinster in order to have the proximity to the friends he had from the time in Meath.

That said, the situation at 10 in Ulster is not sustainable. Why did the IRFU sign off on Werner Kok? IMO, they should be assisted to sign a 10. They're in the doldrums but have not got a clean slate with Murphy, it's time to rebuild the whole provincial setup, I hope this will be Humphrey's priority.

I'm a Connacht supporter but although we have problems, they're minor in comparison to the wholesale dysfunction up North. It is worth recalling here that the malaise extends to the age grade teams which have been very poor. With the size of their budget, player base, and potential - if handled well - to benefit from dual coding, Ulster should be supplying more players to the Irish 23 that we do. Their failure to do so should be treated as an injury to remedy rather than a fate to contemplate.

Exclamation Marc

Let's not forget that Leinster haven't won a URC title since 2021 and they haven't won the Champions Cup in 6 years.

This isn't a perennial championship winning team putting further distance between themselves and the chasing pack - it's a team that has underachieved making moves (specifically, two players on short contracts) to improve itself to be good enough to win when it matters.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025226#Comment_122025226

It's not so much the signings as the root cause to make these signings viable.

Yes, part of the reason Leinster can afford them is because of home attendances in the knock-out stages. But a large part of the reason is also because the IRFU are paying the wages of 9 guys who play in those knock-out games.

you see this is the gripe ive a huge problem with.

18 of the 23 last saturday were homegrown leinster academy players, another two were player pathway investments which leinster developed into important internationals. One other is Henshaw. the only NIQs in the squad were Jenkins and Ala'alatoa. Hardly world renowned names.

so its categorically obvious that at MONEY DID NOT BUY THAT KNOCKOUT WIN. Player pathways and development did !

The fact that those players are then able to say in contract negotiations i think im worth X is value provided by Leinster, not a cost to them.

we developed those international irish players that are on central contracts, so we absolutely should be at the benefit of having them in our squad. How we manage our squad in order for players to be happy to stay is a testament to our coaches and managers. A far cry from the ****-show we see in other provinces.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025356#Comment_122025356

I don't buy that. They don't take the URC seriously for starters. And regarding Europe, in sport you can always have a run of upsets - just see man city in the champions league for 5 or 6 years be before they won it.

Leinster have been one of the top 3, if not top 2, teams in Europe over the past 5 or 6 years. Could even extend this back 10-12 years really. They have the majority of an all time Irish team, they shouldn't need the help. It wasn't because of lack of quality that they didn't get over the line.

Dont Be at It

I think in the long run it would be a net benefit.

Dont Be at It

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122025302#Comment_122025302

I think we've seen that there's a huge desire play and stay for Ireland. Even sexton admits he regrets his move to France.

typhoony

I think people are missing the point here with the Barret signing, he is a utility back, he's even played fly-half and can kick penalties. Also the Leinster backline injury profile has been getting steadily worse over the last couple of years